How to be an ethical slut?

[NLbear]

I am in a similir situation as @PG1961Canada , locked in at home since mid March, working from home and only leave the house for a quick dash at 8am to buy groceries once a week. The only persons I talk to face to face are the girls at the supermarket. Not even friends or relatives. I have pre-existing conditions so I am very careful. I have been keeping in touch with regular fuck buddies by phone or text. So when it appeared a trusted one of them is in the exact same situation as I am we agreed we are not at risk getting together and recently we did. After more than two months isolated at home (and now with the approval of the Dutch government) we have been fucking like bunnies. I won't do hookups with other regulars and he doesn't either. It's just a sexual relationship but it does create a special bond.

[ltrhornypig]

On 5/18/2020 at 9:11 PM, NLbear said:

I am in a similir situation as @PG1961Canada , locked in at home since mid March, working from home and only leave the house for a quick dash at 8am to buy groceries once a week. The only persons I talk to face to face are the girls at the supermarket. Not even friends or relatives. I have pre-existing conditions so I am very careful. I have been keeping in touch with regular fuck buddies by phone or text. So when it appeared a trusted one of them is in the exact same situation as I am we agreed we are not at risk getting together and recently we did. After more than two months isolated at home (and now with the approval of the Dutch government) we have been fucking like bunnies. I won't do hookups with other regulars and he doesn't either. It's just a sexual relationship but it does create a special bond.

Unfortunately, not everyone is as lucky as you to have a trusted regular FB. Now that things are beginning to ease up everywhere, I am very tempting to look for sex again. However like yourself , I  have underlying health conditions and it would be a dead sentence to me if I get infected;(- I don’t know how long I can hold out for, another month or two perhaps.  Judging by the way things are, it would be months or perhaps even a year or two before things can return to the way we were. That is if we can develop a successful vaccine in the near future. It seems to me that I might have to forego sex for a foreseeable future or accept the risk involved should I look for sex.  The problem is that although  I am not afrAid of death, I would feel guilty for the rest of my life  if I pass on the virus to my family ;(-. 

[BB4fking]

I should be in a pretty good position to fuck around, since I live the virus has been well controlled and all but eliminated, and yet I’m not yet getting any. The reasons are primarily ethical so I appreciate this thread. While the local cruise club where I usually give and take most loads hasn’t yet reopened (It couldn’t ever meet distancing requirements so will need to wait for those to be lifted) I could easily hook up on BBRTS or  Grindr for while they were quiet on lockdown they’re busy again now - and I grew a beard on lockdown, my main accomplishment, so can try Scruff. 

My problem is my partner and this raises ethical as well as practical issues. He’s much older than me, not in good health and smoked most of his life so he’s one of the vulnerable groups. He’s said he’s scared of dying of this thing. He’s also become an armchair expert highlighting every risk - he’s pointedly mentioned risk of transmission in semen to me and my counter about the study being based on small samples and possibly non-infective remnants is met by his unearthing of additional studies. His latest casual comment to me is that it can be transmitted in sweat. I’m sceptical of the significance of a lot of this in the context of a country where the virus is under control and nearly eliminated in contrast to a place with rampant community transmission. 

So my first ethical issue is that I have to take into account his heath. The second relates to reconciling our vastly divergent perceptions of risk. Ethically it is problematic to simply disregard his opinions and sneak out and fuck around. That would be disrespectful and remove agency from him since I return to the house and in his mind put him at mortal danger. But if I simply accept his world view it removes agency from me. The only way I can see of seeking to resolve the issue is to talk the matter through and to seek agreement on when and how I get back to fucking around. Unfortunately as something of an introvert I am doubtful of my skills to navigate this successfully. I also fear he will want me to stay celibate until a vaccine appears!

The next set of ethical issues are connected to my partner. He won’t let me host guys at home. That’s reasonable but it does mean that hygiene is not entirely in my hands but is dependent on a third party (e.g. showering, disinfecting surfaces or things). There’s also the other sex partner. I don’t have any stable fuck buddies (well I have one in another country, but that doesn’t help here). If I agree some boundaries with my partner (eg to shower, or use a mask, or select someone who is careful) I have to involve a third party in this. I suspect some guys will see my partner’s worries over risks as over the top and reject my hook up requests. That’s probably more a practical rather than an ethical issue but the ethical approach I think will be to be open at the outset and set some ground rules.

I’m not actually a paragon of virtue. Sneaking around and fucking in what I consider a responsible and safe way is an option (eg no oral, doggy style, hand washing, masked). Unfortunately my partner has a keen sense of smell since he stopped smoking. In January he was away for the weekend and for the first and only time I picked up a hookup in my car, let him fuck me at home and drove him back to the train station. The following day my partner returned and confronted me about bringing someone home saying he could smell that I’d had someone there (it was hot and the young guy was in a tank top and a bit sweaty). He even shampooed the car seats, which may be down to the load starting to leak from me as I drove the guy back!

my final ethical decision, if you can call it that, concerns condoms. In deference to my partner I think I might consider asking guys to use them if I’m bottoming. Probably won’t bother if I’m topping. I’m not sure on this one and will wait for what the best medical advice is.

[Leather-lee]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:10 PM, rawTOP said:

So the question going forward is how to be an ethical slut? I think it would be good to have a community discussion on it…

One point of view is like that expressed by @Sobaystud above. That approach aims for zero risk. It's admirable, but is it maintainable?

Those of us who went through the AIDS pandemic had a variety of approaches to dealing with it, and I think some of them are appropriate here. Personally I got through the '90s with 1) the best information I could find, and 2) risk reduction (but not complete risk elimination).

So when the Limelight reopened a dark room, it was the first one in the City in many years. I was right in there for hours at a time. I was doing oral, j/o, and while  I was vers at the time, but never got fucked in there. It wasn't the place. What shocked some guys was that I wanted them to cum on me. They thought it was really risky, but I knew it wasn't (HIV dies when exposed to air). The dark room was really hot and I'd get totally sweaty. The loads guys dumped on me would mix with the sweat and when I'd leave I was literally dripping wet with a mix of cum and sweat. I loved wiping my had over my chest and feeling it totally slick and covered in cum.

The point of that story was that I took a little risk. I did stuff that was edgy for the time, but it was all based on risk reduction. That said, I didn't stop living my life. And I still had a blast.

I'm not sure it's smart to tell people "just say no" – it's like religious fundamentalists – they bottle stuff up so much that when they finally let go they do some really fucked up shit. Personally I think we need a middle ground. Sensible risk reduction that might not eliminate all risk, but a strategy that reduces and spreads out the risk. So in other words, the risk you might take going to one crowded sex party – can you spread that out over different types of activities, so you might get say 2 hookups a week for 6 months that are the same cumulative risk as that one sex party?

 

Here are some of what I think could substantially reduce risk. Feel free to add your approaches…

Trusted Partners – This one is totally HIV Pandemic 101 – get to know guys before you fuck and get a sense for how much risk they're taking. Whether they've been tested and have antibodies, etc. There's this one little Asian guy I know is pretty kinky who wants to hookup when things get back a bit closer to normal. He's been possibly more conservative than me through this whole thing, so I know hooking up with him is pretty low risk. And I know him and trust him.

Sex Outdoors – The news today was that a study done in China with extensive contact tracing found almost no cases of outdoor transmission. So hooking up outdoors, in parks, in the dunes at beaches, etc. could be a viable way to reduce your risk.

1-on-1s Instead of Groups – Let's say you go to a sex party and come in close contact with 100 guys, but only have sex with 40 of them. Well, you just took on 100 units of risk for only 40 units of benefit. If you did 40 1-on-1 hookups you'd get the same benefit for 40% of the risk, and probably have more sex in the process.

Regulars Rather Than Strangers – If we're talking about units of risk, hooking up with the same guy 5 times, while not 1 unit of total risk, is less than 5 units of risk. Maybe it's 2 units of risk. But you just saved 3 units of risk…

Quickies – That's another finding that came out in the past day or two – the shorter the interaction, the less risk. So a 5-10 minute pump-n-dump is substantially safer than an hour long hookup. I'm not going to say it's 1/12th or 1/6th of the risk, but maybe it's 1/3rd of the risk.

Full Hoods with No Openings – If you like blindfolds, and you're thinking about wearing a mask during sex, combine the two and wear a full hood. It can be a $15 spandex one or a rubber / neoprene one, or a $300 custom leather hood. The point is, it actually makes the sex hotter while reducing risk. Now if giving a blowjob is important to you (or in my case felching a cummy hole), it may not be a workable solution. But if you don't feel like you're giving up anything, go for it…

Here's a decent article that goes over risk reduction strategies for more mundane tasks, but a lot of the bullet points apply to sex equally well…

 

So the next question is when… I think this one is a bit more contentious. Clearly some people never stopped hooking up. And other people are going to wait for months. And if that works for them, 👍, but it won't work for everyone.

Personally there are several things I'm considering…

1. Is the hospital system overwhelmed?
2. Is the risk low enough to be acceptable?

While NYC isn't to their target of 30% of hospital beds free and 30% of ICU beds free, they're getting there. So even now I think #1 is a big issue here. In a couple weeks I wouldn't consider it to be an issue at all.

Then there's the question of risk. That's a lot more complicated. I don't interact with a lot of people normally, so my risk is primarily personal (and risk to my husband). I don't have the worry of elderly friends or family. I should also mention that my husband got both an RNA and antibody test recently and both were negative. So I'm almost certainly negative as well. Bottom line, if you catch it there's a little less than a 1% chance (on average) that you'll die. On the risk charts, being 52, I'm pretty much smack dab "average". Then there's the risk of all the other complications. If someone gave you a bowl of 100 M&Ms and said "there's one in there that will kill you", would you eat any of the M&Ms? Having candy is pretty optional, so no you probably wouldn't. But what if it were the only food around and you hadn't eaten in days? Then yeah, you'd probably risk it.

But it's not like there's a 1% chance of death every time you hookup. The 1% chance of death gets multiplied by the chance you'll catch COVID in that particular hookup, and that's where the whole risk reduction thing comes in. IMHO, you have to take the risk of that particular hookup and compare it to things like going to the grocery store, or hanging out with friends in a park for an hour or two. Just because it's sex doesn't mean it's undeserving of some of your "risk budget".

Personally I'm considering hooking up in a couple weeks. (Just considering at this point – this post is part of my thought process). And I'd start with low risk stuff like trusted partners, sex in parks, and quickie pump-n-dumps. A low risk activity like those once or twice a week will have a significant quality of life benefit.

 

So what's your thinking on all this?

This dearth of sex is building up a certain level of frustration and tension I need to release soon. I'm not sure any sustained period of abstinence can work for most sexually active people, so given the current data around outside transmission, I'm going to be hooking up in cruising grounds within the next week or so.

[Guest takingdeepanal]

On 5/19/2020 at 6:57 AM, Oldercumslut said:

Moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.  

That's the short internet version of the definition of ethics.  After multiple semesters of Ethics as part of Graduate education.  Ethics is situational and objective.    Morality is another term that is fluid and flexible.  The act of us talking about it, weighing risks to both us and the public is a good sign.   The term Ethical Slut isn't an oxymoron, but it's a pretty useless term as the definition of both words is open to interpretation and the semantics involved.

Have you ever read "Ethics in a Permissive Society"?

[Oldercumslut]

3 hours ago, takingdeepanal said:

Have you ever read "Ethics in a Permissive Society"?

Never read the book but I’ve watched recordings of some of the lectures he gave that later became the book.  

[bbinbpark]

An interesting topic for sure. I honestly haven't been the best at this, but have definitely cut down number of partners. 3-4 regular buds, but have only seen about 1/week on average since march.  I do find chatting with guys on the apps that being a healthcare worker seems to get more crickets than responses, but hey, I'm being upfront about what I do. The need for seed is great

[Man4manplay]

My experience after 60 plus days in lockdown is. I need sex period for me is like eating or sleeping, I can jerk off a few times but I need that body contact ,that load in my ass, is like gasoline to a car. I contacted a fuck buddy of many years  ( the guys that fucks me the most ) and we decided to be "monogamous" during the pandemic, so if he needed sex or I needed we will contact each other and avoid others, he stay a few times in my house and I in his., it worked for a few weeks, but being a slut that I am (I never get fucked by the same guy twice in a row) I got bored of being fucked by the same guy. so I started flirting with a  straight single guy from my building floor, we are really good friends and I started with things like  "iIcan suck you",  "it stay between us" " nobody will ever now", "its been 40 days without sex you can use a blow job", "you can watch straight porn while I blow you" a blow is a blow etc and it actually worked, and not only I blow him he fuck me too a few times.  Now Im just getting back in the game, Ive contact like 3 fuck buddies and have been rotation between them, but as soon as this is over im making a huge gand bang orgy

[ErosWired]

On 5/16/2020 at 11:10 AM, rawTOP said:

1-on-1s Instead of Groups – Let's say you go to a sex party and come in close contact with 100 guys, but only have sex with 40 of them. Well, you just took on 100 units of risk for only 40 units of benefit. If you did 40 1-on-1 hookups you'd get the same benefit for 40% of the risk, and probably have more sex in the process.

Regulars Rather Than Strangers – If we're talking about units of risk, hooking up with the same guy 5 times, while not 1 unit of total risk, is less than 5 units of risk. Maybe it's 2 units of risk. But you just saved 3 units of risk…

The difficulty with adopting a 1-on-1 vs group strategy is that it omits the time consideration, and in terms of the type of experience, compares apples to oranges. At the party of 100 where I’m fucked by 40 guys (in my fevered dreams) I will have had a remarkable experience of high-volume serial intercourse which is not comparable to the experience of a single hookup. For the man in search of that particular type of experience, the cost/benefit ratio in terms of risk becomes skewed because of the relative difficulty of engaging in that kind of group action rather than individual encounters.

Then there’s the question of the time involved. Taking the 40 fucks at the party would take a matter of hours; arranging for and completing 40 1-on-1 sessions would take days, if not weeks. And if the 1-on-1 hookups are found, negotiated, etc. via cruising rather than online, one could conceivably rack up more person-exposure hours getting those 40 hookups than one would have gotten at the party.

For men like me in areas where the availability of individuals for hookups is slight, our only recourse is to travel to areas of higher population and seek out opportunities to make ourselves available to volumes of men in an efficient manner in a limited time. We may hook up 1-on-1, but we’ll have to seek out riskier venues in which to do it.

And of course there’s a volume aspect as well - spacing those 40 fucks out over the course of days or weeks means that you could have had those 40 individual fucks - plus the 40 you already took at the party. While I understand the point you’re trying to make about risk reduction, the Math of Loads is going to make it a hard sell, I fear.

Lastly, the question of regulars rather than strangers - It becomes a difficult question for a dedicated service bottom and cumdump who is used almost exclusively by anonymous strangers and caters to the needs of such men on a regular basis. There may be a few “regulars”, but not in the sense of a FB who can be assumed a reduced risk. If I am to somehow ethically return to my service of giving my body to those who want it, I’m going to have to come up with practical risk-reduction practices like the hoods you’re talking about, washing my body and sanitizing my space between every visit, etc.

And pray for a vaccine.

[rawTOP]

Then there’s this position for fucking that keeps your faces 6+ feet apart with you breath expelled in opposite directions…

Do that position outdoors with masks and it’d probably be pretty low risk. lol

I did see one of the LA cumdumps post a video on Twitter of him taking loads in his back yard and looking for more. A quick outdoor pump n dump is probably pretty low risk — or could be depending on how it’s done. 

[talltop]

Interesting conversation. I agree with the sentiment. But in talking of our practical plans, aren't we in danger of projecting things from our experience with HIV? 

For example, that glory hole picture. I can see why you'd think it's safer and indeed I've seen guys advertising their glory holes on safety grounds. But as the top, how many other guys have used the hole before you, and snorted all over that board? Unlike HIV, this thing spreads outside of direct sexual interaction with another person as well.

Also, restricting to a few buddies seems reasonable. But that doesn't take into account the non-sexual contact these guys have with other people. An angelic near-monogamous guy might be high-risk if he works say at border control or an old people's home. By bringing him into your restricted set of fuckbuddies, you bring in all his exposure as well, which is probably more than that you'd get from a promiscuous guy who works from home. 

[blkoraltm]

I am on the verge of trying something.  I was considering heading to a place with gloryholes and bringing my own clorox wipes in a Ziploc bag.  Clean off where I am gonna touch from the previous usage and the wall providing us some social distancing. 

[ErosWired]

On 6/4/2020 at 6:33 AM, talltop said:

For example, that glory hole picture. I can see why you'd think it's safer and indeed I've seen guys advertising their glory holes on safety grounds. But as the top, how many other guys have used the hole before you, and snorted all over that board? Unlike HIV, this thing spreads outside of direct sexual interaction with another person as well.

Also, restricting to a few buddies seems reasonable. But that doesn't take into account the non-sexual contact these guys have with other people.

There’s no question that until a practical preventative or effective treatment is developed, we’re going to have to think about sanitizing where and how we make contact. That’s going to be an alien concept and a hard sell, I fear, to some men who revel in “piggy” sex. It’s not as though any of us are fucking in a NASA Clean Room (and if you are, shame on you - it would be terrible if the first evidence of life we find on Mars turns out to be chlamydia from your crotch), but some men seem to fetishize microbe-prone behavior. It’s hard to get more microbe-friendly than tonguing another man’s bodily fluid out of a third man’s anus. Myself, if I host anytime soon, I fully expect to be doing a lot of wiping and disinfecting of the space between Tops, for their safety as well as my own.

The bottom line is that for the indeterminate future, this thing we enjoy cannot be done without assuming a risk to uninvolved persons. Yet neither can a trip to the grocery. We can only measure the need versus the risk, determine how much we can limit the risk, and from that make an acceptable decision on how to proceed. Sexual release is a basic human need, as vital as any human contact. Going a year without sexual outlet is a great deal to ask, and for some, perhaps it is too much to ask. 

[ErosWired]

On 5/16/2020 at 11:10 AM, rawTOP said:

Full Hoods with No Openings – If you like blindfolds, and you're thinking about wearing a mask during sex, combine the two and wear a full hood. It can be a $15 spandex one or a rubber / neoprene one, or a $300 custom leather hood. The point is, it actually makes the sex hotter while reducing risk. Now if giving a blowjob is important to you (or in my case felching a cummy hole), it may not be a workable solution. But if you don't feel like you're giving up anything, go for it…

Following on this suggestion, I pulled out the ol' crafting gear and made this:

A full hood with lace-up back, nostril holes and open mouth, but with a snap-on N95 filter mask attachment.

The inside of the mask is pocketed so that the filter can be replaced (or, if a Top were to desire it, substituted with a popper-laced cloth...)

The question is, would anyone want to fuck a guy wearing this? Would it be too kinky/creepy/squicky/weird/hilarious? I mean, I'm sure there's a certain type of man from the Kink school who would get off on it in a serious way, but looked at as a solution to the Covid problem, is it too much of a boner-killer? Too much like fucking someone in a HAZMAT suit? Does it make you think about the virus when you want to be thinking about cock and ass? I'll be interested in the replies.

[ltrhornypig]

19 hours ago, ErosWired said:

The question is, would anyone want to fuck a guy wearing this? Would it be too kinky/creepy/squicky/weird/hilarious? I mean, I'm sure there's a certain type of man from the Kink school who would get off on it in a serious way, but looked at as a solution to the Covid problem, is it too much of a boner-killer? Too much like fucking someone in a HAZMAT suit? Does it make you think about the virus when you want to be thinking about cock and ass? I'll be interested in the replies.

Many guys are into hoods and masks. I think it is rather sexy if it is in black leather.