When does transvestite fetish turns into Trans Identity?

[hungry_hole]

7 hours ago, tj87 said:

Dear Hungry,

If you're Trans, the sight of yourself in the mirror - the sex that you've been biologically assigned, is so juxtaposed to what your brain expects (a form of body dysmorphia) that it causes extreme anxiety and depression - and an inability to function in daily life - from the moment you become sexually aware or maybe even before.

I understand the anxiety and depression that some people may have but I question the quick decision that the problem is the assigned gender.

If a 10 yr-old boy tells me that he thinks he's Superman and that he can fly out from the window of his bedroom, it would be stupid to accept his statement at face value. The obvious thing to do is to dig into the boy's need to be Superman, and what being Superman means to him. Same thing with a boy who says he's really a girl. You have to dig into what he means by being a girl and why being a girl feels so true to him. 

[drscorpio]

Some young guys will say they are bi as a transitional thing towards admitting they are gay (I certainly was one of them back in the 80s). That doesn't mean there aren't guys who really are bi. It's not a transitional thing for them. I think it can be similar for transvestite and transsexual men. It's easier to cop to being turned on to it and then later admit it's your identity not a fetish. Some guys are passing through cross-dressing but not all of them. 

Here again is an analogy from my life. I came out as gay my freshman year at college in 1981. I had only known being gay was a thing for about 5-6 years. I grew up in a rural setting, and there wasn't a lot of coverage of the gay community in my area. There were hardly any gays on television, and the ones that were there were no one you wanted to be. If I had been born 30-40 years later with so many more positive images of LGBTQ+ people, I probably would have come out at 14 like my niece did a few years back. I think we are seeing more transpeople because there is more awareness that it is a thing. There is a vocabulary people can use to describe their experience, and there is support for coming out as trans. 

[BootmanLA]

13 hours ago, tj87 said:

Terrible timing as my newspaper reveals that Eddie Izzard, former transvestite comedian has now come out as trans.

One example does not mean that broadly speaking people interested in transvestism are likely transgender in nature. It may be the case for Izzard (who, I would note, described herself as "gender fluid" and wanting to be "in girl mode from now on"), but that's not necessarily the case for a majority or even necessarily a significant number of people who are into transvestism.

People's self-evaluation, self-understanding, etc. can change over time.

[BootmanLA]

12 hours ago, tj87 said:

Sex is the biological term that divides our species along sexual characteristics - and from a scientific perspective, there are only two.
Gender, which some people use to mean sex, but really means the collection of ideas that go together with our sex - masculine and feminine.

I'd only quibble with the first sentence of this paragraph because speaking both genetically anatomically, this is false. We tend to assume penis+testicles = male, vagina+uterus+ovaries = female, just as we tend to assume that people with XX chromosomes on the 23rd pair are female and XY chromosomes are male. But it's far more complex than that.

First a quick primer: genotype refers to the genetic coding that describes the makeup of the individual. Specifically, there are genes on the 23rd pair of chromosomes which under most circumstances render us (genetically) male or female. Phenotype refers to the physical characteristics expressed as a result of those genes (genitalia, secondary sex characters such as body hair patterns, facial hair, etc.). 

From the genetic (genotype) perspective, there are certainly XX females and XY males, but there are numerous variants of these, as well. There are XX males (and apparently there is more than one variant of this genetic condition, producing different phenotypes. There are XY people who, due to the mutation of other genes within the genome, develop female genitalia. There are XXY and XYY individuals, who have an extra X or Y gene, respectively. There are even individuals whose genome is expressed as XXXY. Many of these situations are referred to by particular names (ie "Kleinfelder's Syndrome"), but we're learning that even within a particular genotype there may be other factors that further affect development.

I'm sure there are others I haven't covered. But the point is, these are all *genotype* issues - and *phenotype* (that is, visually apparently male or female) is an entirely different kettle of fish. For starters, there are intersex individuals, born with ambiguous genitalia, and we know this can result from more than one genotypic condition. We know that sometimes the phenotype expressed does not exactly correspond to the genotype of the individual - that is, the genotype may suggest female, but the phenotype presents male.

And this is just with us scratching the surface of genetics' intersection with gender and sex.

Side, tangentially related note: studies with one of our most common songbirds, the White-throated Sparrow, show that it effectively has FOUR sexes - two "male" and two "female". There are two color morphs of the bird, and what we've learned is that the section of genes that control the color differences also apparently control a range of behaviors and other features, with the result that males of morph A mate almost exclusively with females of morph B, and vice versa. Two A's or two B's, even if one is male and one is female, rarely mate and procreate. This suggests that for some species, at least, there's a lot more going on linked with those X and Y chromosomes, and possibly lots of other things are tied in with the entire notion of sex and gender.

[BootmanLA]

5 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

In terms of the men who feel they are women, I would still like to know what "feeling like a woman" is. Can anybody explain that to me?

As an old saying goes, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You're gay, right? You "know", deep inside, you're not attracted to women; you're attracted to men, despite the fact that genetically speaking, gay sex is a "dead end" from a procreational perspective and our sex drive evolved, specifically, to help facilitate procreation. In other words, your attraction to men is just how you're wired, despite the fact that you have genitalia that were developed, evolutionarily, to mate with women.

In other words, there is a disconnect between the apparent designated function of your genitalia and your brain (or whatever part of it controls your attraction to others), and you've (correctly) recognized that your orientation is determined NOT by the fact that you have a penis and testicles (which, evolutionarily, says you should mate with women) but by something in your mental makeup.

That's what trans is like. There is a disconnect between the genitalia and other physical characteristics the person has, and the mental makeup of that person, which identifies as the opposite sex from their body type.

It shouldn't be that hard for you to replace "kind of person I'm attracted to" with "kind of person I perceive myself as", and understand what it means to be trans.

[funpozbottom]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:15 AM, hungry_hole said:

During my many visits to bathhouses I've run into all kinds of guys wearing their favorite fetish wear like sexy shorts, leather, etc, and occasionally guys who's fetish is to wear women's clothing. 

My questions is, how did a fetish transform into the Trans Movement? Isn't Trans just another fetish?

 

Someone who crossdresses as a fetish is turned on by the feel or appearance of the clothes and may take on an alternate persona in order to explore aspects of personality that may be considered  contrary to that person's gender. A crossdresser may be secure in his or her gender but likes the fantasy of cosplay as the opposite gender.  On the other hand, someone who is trans may feel that their birth gender is the fantasy and that dressing and behaving as the opposite gender allows them to exhibit their true self. In this way, being trans is not a fetish, but a search for and evaluation of one's true identity. 

 

On 12/21/2020 at 9:31 AM, hungry_hole said:

Following Trans logic,  short people could say "I was born in the wrong body because I feel like a tall person". Unless for ambiguous genitalia people have to accept their assigned gender.

There is a tendency to equate homosexuality with Transsexualism but there is no comparison. The Transition requires a medical procedure and hormones, something totally unnatural. Homosexuality requires nothing.

 

Body modifications and prosthetics have been used for centuries for various reasons including changing one's appearance to conform more closely to a person's self-image. From superficial changes like "fashion" and hairstyles, to moderate changes like piercings and tattoos, to more extreme changes like face lifts, hair transplants, and sex changes. What you said about short people is true. Trying to get that extra inch is one reason that some people wear high heals or lifts, and others buy vacuum pumps. That said, it should be noted that surgery or hormones are not necessary for someone to be trans. Not everyone wants or can afford the expense of those types of therapies, plus, not everyone needs to undergo that type of transformation to feel comfortable with who they are.  The trans "movement" is mostly about not being judged by one's gender, one's appearance, and one's portrayal of oneself. The goal is to breakdown gender bias so that people can more freely diverge from stereotypical gender roles.

 

Just a note: I'm not trans and I'm not an expert in gender issues. My comments are merely my current understanding of the the topic.

[Annapaulamass]

I want to be women, feel like women and be like women 24/7. Society don't allow me to get out from this male body to accept my full feminine side full time. And be treated like a girl, day to day and sexually.

[Annapaulamass]

I've been in and out feminine hormones, until developed a small breast. And, in general, I wear my female clothes at my home or when I have sex with guys, and sometimes when I go out outside my work

[Guest hungandmean]

12 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

Having someone injected hormones into their body is not something I would call "natural".  Hormones and other substances are banned in sports because you are no longer competing with the "natural" ability.

In the case of homosexuality calling it unnatural was not appropriate because no hormones or other drugs were required. Just start fucking!

Hormones are injested by women and men for TONS of reasons in modern medicine. Birth control, precocious puberty, stunted puberty, cancer, amenorrhea...... as if we aren't using hormones in medical care. No one is going to give someone shit for needing insulin for their diabetes. Yet you, sitting there, without any medical knowledge or scientific degree somehow think you know what is medically safe, and sound? 

You're on a fucking forum for men who - against all known and safe medical knowledge - want to go around barebacking people, strangers... taking drugs... going to orgies? 

And you have the fucking gall to attempt to lecture or opine about what you think is natural, and normal. or appropriate? 

I hope when the bell rings here in just over a week... 2021 brings you some fucking sense. 

   

[hungry_hole]

On 12/22/2020 at 5:45 PM, BootmanLA said:

As an old saying goes, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You're gay, right? You "know", deep inside, you're not attracted to women; you're attracted to men,

It's not a matter of attraction that I enjoy sex with men and not with women. It's not that "I like men" more than women, but instead I like the way men have sex, with no need for flowers, dinners or even talking before sex. Somebody who likes anonymous sex like myself would have trouble with women who many want marriage right after sex.

[hungry_hole]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:44 PM, Annapaulamass said:

I want to be women, feel like women and be like women 24/7.

I would like someone to please explain this "feeling like a woman" thing. Do you want to feel sexy and a sex object? Explain.

[funpozbottom]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:31 AM, hungry_hole said:

I say weird because a man saying "I feel like a woman" doesn't make sense. What the hell is "feeling like a woman"? I'm a man and I would have difficulties explaining what feeling like a man is. Rather than dealing with childhood issues it's seems easier to attach yourself to some identity and then blame any personal problems on trans-phobia.

You say you are male but would have difficulty saying what that feels like. But if you can't describe it, how do you know you are male? It's not something that we normally have to think about. Being male or female normally isn't something we “become”, it's simply something that we “are”. Differentiation between that sense of being male and female begins in the womb. There are subtle changes in the brain that alter the way information is processed. Males tend to be left brain dominant. Females tend to have a more robust connection between the two halves and use both more equally. It is, however, possible for the brain to develop in one way while the rest of the physical body develops in another so that there is a disconnect between physical appearance and the way the brain processes information. So you could have, for example, a female oriented brain with a physically male body, or visa versa. This causes a disconnect between one's mental image – one's sense of self, and the tactile sense and visual appearance of the physical body. This disconnect is exacerbated by the over importance our current society places on appearance so that a person may feel they are stuck in the wrong body and are playing a role to try to appease others and fit into society.

(If you want to try to understand this type of disconnect between mind and body, try to imagine how it would feel, and how you would react if you woke up tomorrow to find you had a female body, you only had dresses in your closet, and everyone treated you like a girl. How would you react to not having a penis and suddenly having to deal with breasts that don't fit your clothes? Would you just go with it or would you try to figure out what happened and try to get your male body back again? Everyone would approach that scenario differently and most likely opt for a different outcome.)

Developing a sense of self is a complex process that cannot be attributed to one single factor. Not all people who feel they are trans would show the type of birth defect that I just described, and not all people who do would ultimately feel the need to undergo surgery to eliminate their disconnect. Regardless of the cause, different people use different strategies to cope with their dysphoria. Some are helped by therapy, some merely consider their condition to be “quirky”, some may cross dress and try on different personas, and some may opt for hormone therapies or surgeries to merge mental and physical dimensions.

The take away from all this is that not everyone fits neatly into the gender boxes of male and female. Perhaps it's time to move away from the restrictive Victorian Era views of “male” and “female” and allow each individual the opportunity to be themselves.

[hungry_hole]

21 hours ago, funpozbottom said:

You say you are male but would have difficulty saying what that feels like. But if you can't describe it, how do you know you are male?

The same way we know how other mammals are male: we look for their penis. No penis, then it's female mammal. The difference is that humans have a big imagination and can start believing things. There are boys who believe they are Superman or some other fictional character.

Having had a penis since birth has shaped by life and I can't believe a person who was born female can ever claim to be a man. Impossible! Similarly, there is no way a person born male can ever claim to be a female without ever having experienced having a female body. It's all imagination.

I'm willing to have my ideas challenged, but I need someone to explain: What does "feeling like a woman" mean? I suspect it means being able to look pretty and sexy, and while walking have the gaze of others follow you.

What I find pathetic about the Trans movement is that the goal of a man "who feels like a woman" is to look like the "traditional sexy woman" who is only valued by her looks.  I thought society was trying to move away from the objectification of women.

Edited December 25, 2020 by hungry_hole

[hungry_hole]

22 hours ago, funpozbottom said:

The take away from all this is that not everyone fits neatly into the gender boxes of male and female. Perhaps it's time to move away from the restrictive Victorian Era views of “male” and “female” and allow each individual the opportunity to be themselves.

Male and Female are not leftovers from Victorian Era because these are determined by biological markers that can be determined by DNA analysis. If a man's leg a found in a ditch a DNA analysis will confirm it was a from a man, even if that man "felt like a woman" and imagined being a woman.

[BootmanLA]

10 hours ago, hungry_hole said:

The same way we know how other mammals are male: we look for their penis. No penis, then it's female mammal. The difference is that humans have a big imagination and can start believing things. There are boys who believe they are Superman or some other fictional character.

Having had a penis since birth has shaped by life and I can't believe a person who was born female can ever claim to be a man. Impossible! Similarly, there is no way a person born male can ever claim to be a female without ever having experienced having a female body. It's all imagination.

I'm willing to have my ideas challenged, but I need someone to explain: What does "feeling like a woman" mean? I suspect it means being able to look pretty and sexy, and while walking have the gaze of others follow you.

What I find pathetic about the Trans movement is that the goal of a man "who feels like a woman" is to look like the "traditional sexy woman" who is only valued by her looks.  I thought society was trying to move away from the objectification of women.

Care to switch to a backhoe? I think you could dig this hole you're putting yourself in a lot faster that way.

Again: a heterosexual person could use the same arguments on you as a gay man. "You have a big imagination and can start believing things, like a man's penis belongs in your anus instead of where we all know it belongs, in a woman's vagina. There are boys who believe they're 'gay' or some other fictional status."

As for your (frankly sad) suggestion that being trans is about "being able to look pretty and sexy" and the rest of that bullshit, all I can say is: take one look at gay male gym culture, at gay male fashion, at gay male anything, really. The idea that trans people are uniquely trying to "look pretty and sexy" would be ludicrous if it weren't such an incredibly short-sighted, ill-informed, and frankly stupid concept.

What I find pathetic about the anti-Trans movement is people who clearly don't know a goddamned thing about transgender issues opining on them as though their opinion matters. Everyone is, of course, entitled to his own opinion, but they're not entitled to their own facts; and some opinions, frankly, are like pre-Euro Italian lire: worthless.