Poz1956

I find sometime people are irrational around HIV. They want 100% certainty that they can't become Poz. Nothing we do has zero risk. A condom could break with a "thinks he's Neg" guy, you could slip in the shower, or get hit by a truck on your way to work. If you're scared that PrEP won't protect you from HIV 2, then you must be terrified of Typhoid, Dengue Fever, Malaria, and millions of other diseases that are almost never seen in North America.

HIV2 is somewhat common in west Africa. I'm sure there have been some rare cases in North America, with people who brought it back from overseas. There hasn't been enough to generate any warnings about clusters of it in the developed world. HIV 1, Subtype C is the most common version seen in Africa. The HIV we're seeing in the developed world is HIV 1, Subtype B

** Warning - Science Lesson Ahead **

All the HIV drugs work by interfering with some part of the virus duplication process. What has made HIV so tricky, is that when it does reproduce, there are a lot of mutations. It is a strand of RNA (1/2 of a DNA double helix). Because of that, there is a greater chance of errors in reproduction. In uncontrolled HIV, Billions of copies are produced every day, which creates many opportunities for viral mutations.

After the virus injects itself into the CD4 cell, the Reverse Transcriptase enzyme creates a complementary strand of RNA, and glues it together with the original, making a strand of DNA, which gets passed on to the next step of reproduction. Most mutations happen here. All of Nucleoside, Nucleotide, and Non-Nucleoside Reverse Transcriptase Inhibitors interfere with this step, in slightly different ways.

In the early days, when only one antiretroviral drug was used, that natural tendency to mutate led to the virus becoming resistant to a drug within a few months. It is one of the most classic cases of Darwinian biology you will find -- Mutations occur during reproduction, a trait from one mutation proves useful (ie resistance to the drug), the survivors reproduce, and become the dominant species. The virus 'evolved' in that person to use Reverse Transcriptase in a different way. (Of course a virus isn't actually alive - so evolve might be too strong of a word)

People with HIV now get (at least) a three drug regime. Usually two from one class, and a third from a different class of drugs. While the first line combinations of choice are changing, most people start with two from the NRTI class (both drugs in Truvada are from that category), and one from a different class (NNRTI, PI, II). For example in my case, I take two NRTIs and one NNRTI all of which are aimed at blocking HIV's ability to use Reverse Transcrptase.

Truvada as PrEP uses two NRTI's to block that early step in viral replication. If an HIV exposure occurres it is unlikely that the virus would be able to reproduce itself efficiently enough for the new host to become HIV+. The viral copies from that initial exposure, and the few that were able to reproduce, are eventually "die" of old age, or are destroyed by body's own defences. That's how both PEP an PrEP work.

** HIV Reproduction Lesson End -- PrEP Resistance Lesson Begin **

Now to the OP's original question. Yes, exposure to a strain of HIV that is resistant to both drugs in Truvada is possible. The fear of that strain developing and spreading is one of the arguments PrEP nay sayers shout. We aren't seeing a lot of new HIV infections that are multi-drug resistant. We are seeing some, but not enough that doctors are worried. There are enough drugs now, that we have many options to treat a multi-drug resistant strain, with other ARVs that will inhibit the virus. In fact, it is common practice to test for drug resistance before starting an Poz guy on antiretrovirals.

Lets look at what would need to happen for you to catch a Truvada resistant strain.

Say a guy started on PrEP after testing Negative, but he was in the window period, and it doesn't show up on the test. While he bought the PrEP, and started taking it, but doesn't take it every day. He only takes it one or two days a week - weekend disco dosing. There's some drug in his system, and it is inhibiting some HIV replication, but not enough drug to do a very good job of it. The virus mutates, and by random chance comes up with a version that avoids the way BOTH of the drugs in Truvada inhibit Reverse Transcriptase. It could also happen with a Poz guy who was very bad with his three drug regime (assuming his ARVs included both drugs in Truvada).

Now he'd have to screw you after he developed a very high viral load before his next set of tests - assuming he goes for them, because he's not taking the drugs right. Or perhaps he dinks some guy who catches the Truvada resistant strain. That guy grows one of those window period ten million viral loads, and he fucks you - a good PrEP user. He gives you one of those dry, nasty, hard fucks that draws blood and is sure to Poz you. Or maybe it's gentle tender and loving, but unlucky you rolls snake eyes in that 1 in 71 chances per exposure, and you get infected. We also have to assume that his virus hasn't started to mutate back to its original wild type.

Those are an awful lot very special circumstances that would all have to line up just perfectly for PrEP to fail you because of a Truvada resistant strain. The chances of that are WAY WAY less than the already quite small chance of you catching any other strain of HIV 1 Subtype B while on PrEP.

I'm sure if there was something making the rounds that's resistant to both drugs in Truvada there would be bells ringing, sirens going off, and red lights flashing, in every HIV clinic, and phone calls being made to every doctor who prescribes PrEP.

If you're going to be fret about things with that small of a chance happening, you shouldn't be playing bare - period.

It's certainly a possibility. It would have to be a very recent fuck (like the guy just before you at a gang bang). He's also have to be a very high viral load type - infected a few weeks ago & can't test Poz yet, leaving him with a VL of around 10 million. A guy in the chronic phase of infection with a viral load 30,000 to 120,000 would be a candidate too. Basically - somebody not on treatment. It would not, and science is saying probably could not, be an undetectable Pozzie.

An uncut top would far more susceptible to that scenario, than a cut one. I don't think it would be any higher risk for a cut top, than fucking an untreated Pozzie bottom.

A 20-something, who thought I was a hot daddy said:

EEewwww. Ick! You're sick! You should never have sex with anybody ever again.

I have a profile I built over on Squirt as an Anti-Stigma, and HIV education exercise. It's debut was World AIDS Day.

It explains the Window Period, Undetectable, and those undiagnosed high viral load "Clean U B 2" guys, who aren't quite as clean as they thought. I feed them some other questions they might ask after "What's your status," when the reply is "Negative."

I have to admit it's not very complimentary of BareBacking. But lets face it, BB with "D & D Free" guys is how HIV is spread.

It is blunt, in your face, part rail against stigma, and part educating people about the facts of life. It's actually gotten me more hook-up offers than any "fun and sexy" profile I've used in the past. I never expected that reaction. I guess for some, it stimulated the biggest sex organ in the body -- the brain.

The piece is pretty powerfully written. Other Pozzies thank me for standing up, and saying things that need to be said. Many Neggies are absolutely stunned by the basic info they didn't know. They appreciate the education, and often ask additional questions. It's really resonated with Bi guys. I think that's great because they are the hardest group to reach with any HIV educational material, especially the small city and rural men. My post has been read by about 2,500 different people, many of them more than once. (I'm actually databasing the nicknames for stats.) Current views are standing at just over 5,300.

For profile pictures, I use posters from Anti-Stigma and HIV Awareness campaigns around the world. I rotate the primary picture every day or two, and featured campaign every couple of weeks. (If anyone can PM me links to new ones, I'd appreciate it.)

In part, the profile is responsible for my being here. I was so brain-washed about condoms that I literally couldn't understand why anyone barebacked. It sparked a conversation with another member here, which made me start to re-asses my position.

Now, to the point: There is a guy from the UK who has looked at the profile 4 or 5 times since January. After one visit, I sent a polite email thanking him for reading, and asking, just out of curiosity, how did he find it - was he travelling here soon, or was it a featured profile? Of course he ignored it and gave no response. He's got one of those Greek God bodies, with a profile picture of incredibly hot buns, wrapped in tightie whities. Clearly from his comment this morning, beneath the briefs it's 100% asshole. Interestingly, as I'm typing this he looked at the page again. Probably because he's reading my response, where I tried to give him at least a little educational information.

Here is the Hit and Run chat from this morning:

I can only Assume, since you have NO PICS, that you are Hideous Looking, and probably have Karposi Sores all over you, and that Gaunt & Wasted AIDS look about you. Instead, you only post pics of posters and sex positions. Tragic :-(

(The current poster has a dozen stick figures in different sex positions, with the tag line "The more sexual partners you have, the more often you should test")

Some days an impolite response to my HIV status will bounce off like I'm armoured. Other days they cut deep and wound me right to the soul. And some are just so absolutely bizarre that they leave me stunned and shaking my head.

Certainly many are a sign of how poorly educated guys are about HIV.

Lately I've gotten a few Rejections / Reactions to my Pozzie status that have stung and hit dug a little deeper under my skin than usual.

Let's vent, and share some of them here. Tips on how to respond would be good too.

I think it would also be a "must read" for Bug Chasers who think HIV will set them free.

The per exposure risk of transmission, is just like rolling a pair of dice. Each and every time you roll the dice, the odds it coming up snake eyes are exactly the same. And remember the estimated risk I referred to are with a high viral load Pozzie.

The OP didn't explicitly state this, but I assume a fuller description of who he wants to plow is, a Pozzie Bottom with and Undetectable Viral Load.

Looking at the documentation from the interim report from Partner study, presented at CROI 2014, with the data they have so far, None of the negative partners caught HIV from their Poz spouse, regardless of whatever kind of sex they had, homosexual or heterosexual. They need more data before they'll product the final report in 2017.

To the OP's point, data from the Partner study so far shows that zero gay, Neg, top only partners became Poz in an estimated 11,749 BB fucks

Seriously guys - Go read the report from the Partner study

Or Hear the presentation, See the slides, and Listen to the Q & A session from CROI 2014 conference.

I've debated whether to repeat this here, or just link to where I posted it on another site. It is a dissection of the risk posed by oral sex down to a ridiculously minute detail. I put about 40 hours of research into it reading most the medical literature available online. Since you are over thinking, I might as well give you a big blob of text to over think about.

By the way, in the study that produced the 1 in 2500 number you quoted, no actual transmissions occurred. Just like in the Partner study the statistical "fudge factor" called a confidence interval created that theoretical risk number. They are 95% sure that their results did not come about by random chance. They know that the real number lies somewhere between the theoretical number, and zero. If they studied more subjects for a longer time, the confidence interval would go up, and the theoretical risk be stretched out further.

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One of the most common questions I get is "How safe is oral sex?" Since it gets asked so often, I thought I'd post the answer here.

Firstly I should mention that I'm not any kind of medical professional. I'm just another Pozzie. I'm very well read up on the topic, but in the end, just I am just an ordinary Poz guy. But this answer has about 40 hours or research behind it. I reviewed countless websites and all available medial data.

Let me preface the whole conversation with a couple of points. I know everyone is terrified of HIV, but in reality it is NOT that easy to catch in the first place. The body is pretty good at fighting off all sorts of infections. It honestly takes exposure to a MASSIVE dose of HIV to cause transmission. It has to be enough to overwhelm the body's own defences, and take root in many CD4 cells. They are the type of white blood cell that the virus reproduces inside, killing them in the process. It takes very specific circumstances for HIV to gain a foothold. Remember that not even a bottom receiving full bareback fuck, from a high viral load Pozzie, results in transmission every time.

There really is no consensus amongst medical professionals on the risk of oral sex. They usually take the most conservative approach to advice, with the least risk of being sued. There have been so few cases where oral sex was the only risk, that researches have not felt it worthy or even possible of serious study. Let's face it, most people do more than just suck cock, so it's difficult to asses if their risk was from BJ's or that little something something else.

Over all oral sex has always been considered very low risk. Most experts agree that a "blow job" is not an efficient route of HIV transmission. There is a "theoretical risk" of HIV transmission. "Theoretical risk" means that passing an infection from one person to another is considered possible, even though there haven't been any (or only a few) documented cases. And there really have only been a hand full of documented cases of oral transmission in the 28 years we've been able to test for HIV. Even those few are suspect. It's impossible to know if people are always reporting their sexual behaviour accurately. (Study volunteers often have a difficult time admitting the truth about potentially embarrassing activities to healthcare professionals.)

I am going to divide this out into a few different topics to give you something more realistic, on which to form your own opinion, and make your own choices.

The mouth has a lot of defences to getting any kind of infections. It doesn't have the delicate mucous membranes like an ass, urethra (pee tube), or vagina. Think of all the potentially bad stuff that goes into peoples mouths all the time. Have you ever done the "10 second rule" on food you drop? Especially think of a toddler who sucks on everything, and put anything that will fit, into their mouth. They are not constantly getting infections by that, right? How about the guys who rim? (Rimming certainly does have higher risk of other infections, but considering the number of guys who rim, there just isn't an extremely high number of people with mouth infections because of it. Rimming is extremely low risk for HIV.)

Saliva is a part of the body's natural defences against infection. It is pretty acidic, and contains enzymes, and antibodies which kill most bugs. Additionally, the saliva has a tendency to disrupt any cells and viruses which may be floating around in it. And lets face it, what ever was in the mouth, doesn't stay there long. It gets swallowed and put into the extremely caustic environment of the stomach. Additionally, remember that the HIV virus is actually quite fragile.

Firstly let's talk about oral health. Cuts, sores or abrasions in the mouth or gums, or infections in the mouth or throat that are inflamed do create a potential route of transmission. If you or your partner has these kinds of problems, oral sex should be avoided, or performed with protection.

Next let's take he case of a Neg guy receiving a blow job from a Poz guy. The chance is so close to zero that you can call it zero. It would take a perfect storm of misadventures to cause transmission. HIV is almost never found in saliva (even then it's usually just RNA particles, not a full virus.) A Poz guy has HIV specific antibodies in saliva too. That's how the mouth swab tests work. And remember antibodies fight the virus. About the only way it could be passed on is if the guy getting sucked had some kind of wounds on his dick (I certainly wouldn't consider putting my lips on a cock like that regardless of my status.) The Sucker would also have to have some kind of oral health issues as I mentioned above that caused bleeding. And if fellatio specialist did have wounds, or bleeding gums in his mouth, he really shouldn't be sucking anything anyway (or at least putting a condom on that cowboy). You would need both problems to occur at the same time for there to be the potential for transmission. And the Poz sucker would probably need to have an extremely high viral load as well. There has never been a single documented case of HIV transmission to the person being "sucked" during unprotected oral sex, either among MSM (Men who have Sex with Men) or heterosexuals.

The next scenario is a Neg sucker blowing a Poz guy.

Obviously those same oral health issues apply here as well. Don't suck a dick if you've got bleeding gums, open sores, an inflamed throat infection, or been eating Captain Crunch :-P (I know that stuff always tears the shit out of my mouth.) Obviously that last one is a joke, but before you step up to that glory hole, poke your tongue around, and think about the state of your mouth.

Take a moment, and admire that beautiful dick you're about to suck. Run your hands over it. Complement him on it. But what you're really doing is checking it for wounds, or abnormalities that would make you think, "I should give this one a pass."

Another point is how will you take the load? Cum in your mouth, take a facial or a chest shot? There is very little HIV in pre-cum, so up to orgasm, risk is Extremely low. Certainly there is more HIV in a full load of jiz.

But that "More" is relative. A guy under treatment, with an undetectable viral load, has so low of a dose that most HIV specialists think he has a very little risk of transmission, even if he does all the other Un-Safe stuff. Undetectable means below the threshold the test can measure - a viral load of less than 40. (Depending on where you live, and the test used, undetectable can vary. The most common test in North America has a lower limit of 40.) How far below 40 is an undetectable guy? A french study used the most sensitive assay available to re-test Undetectable Poz guys. That test measured down to less than one viral copy per ML of blood. 34% had a completely undetectable viral load. 44% had a viral load between 1 and 20. 21% had a viral load between 20 and 50 (Fifty was the lower threshold of the test commonly used in France at that time - ie 50 was their definition of undetectable.) Groups like UN-AIDS and the World Health Organization feel that transmission is unlikely with a viral load under 1,500. (Transmission through any method, other than direct blood to blood contact, like sharing needles).

Compare the risk of a guy under treatment who is undetectable, to someone who is Poz and doesn't know it. A newly infected guy (sometime in the last few weeks), who can't even test Poz yet, will have a viral load of over one million. Sometimes more than ten million. A few weeks later, after the immune system kicks in, and the body starts to fight HIV (ie after he is producing the anti-bodies and can then test Poz), the viral load will generally settle out between 30,000 and 120,000. A few will go lower than that, and some higher. Over the course of the pandemic, millions of guys with those extremely high viral loads must have had their dick's sucked.

Then there's the question of Spit, or Swallow? One school of thought says swallow. The most likely place or oral health issues is around the gums. Cum shots usually happen behind the teeth. If you swallow the cum stays behind the gums, but if you spit, you will spread the splooge all around your mouth.

Even with the highest viral loads, it is still considered very low risk of catching HIV through giving a BJ. There have been a number of studies that have closely followed MSM and heterosexual couples, in which one partner was HIV positive and the other partner was HIV negative. In all of the studies, couples that used condoms consistently and correctly during every experience of vaginal or anal sex, DID NOT use condoms during oral sex. There were ZERO cases where HIV spread from the HIV positive partner to the HIV negative partner. I should be obvious from the Partner study, that since they didn't use condoms for anal or vaginal sex, there is no chance they would have used them for oral sex. Recall that none of the Neg partners caught HIV from their Poz spouse in the Partner study. While no data was released on this, I think it is reasonable to assume that there were at least an equivalent number of blow jobs to bareback fucks. So I think we can say no transmissions occurred in at least 44,600 blow jobs as well.

I obviously could never say there is absolutely no risk, but it is extremely low. (Nothing we do is zero risk - you could slip in the shower, or get hit by a car crossing the street.) As I said before, researches consider it a theoretical risk.

"Here's a good way to think about theoretical risk: In theory, it is possible that while walking down the street, a meteor will fall on your head and kill you instantly. This is because meteors do occasionally fall to earth. People live their lives above ground, so there is a theoretical risk of being hit be a meteor. In fact, there have been reports of a few people being hit by meteors. But because the risk is so small, given that few meteors fall to earth and the large number of inhabitants of this planet, the risk is purely theoretical. The same principle holds true with oral sex – millions of people all over the world are believed to engage in unprotected oral sex and there have only been a handful of documented cases of HIV transmission. In turn, fellatio, and other types of oral sex, remains a theoretical risk for HIV infection." (quoted from "How is HIV Transmitted?" @ AIDSMeds.com)

Put your fear aside, and just think about it logically for a moment. How many gay guys suck dick every day! It HIV were easily transmitted by oral sex, wouldn’t every gay man in every big city be Poz by now?

The truth is, there is far greater risk of getting some other STI from oral sex, than there is of catching HIV through giving or receiving a BJ.

And if the whole idea still totally freak you, take a facial, or chest shot. Or suck with a nice mint favoured condom (personally what I've found it the best flavour for BJ's).

Hopefully that puts your mind at rest around the topic of Blow Jobs.

Just as an aside on other STIs, Hepatitis B is 50 to 100 times more transmissible than HIV (but nobody seems to ask about it). It is completely preventable by a vaccination. If you haven't done so already, may I suggest you get that done now.

Oh the best part of my night was one of those guys who's profile says he wants Poz guys to be sincere and honest. We'd chatted previously a few times, but our schedules just didn't align for a hook-up. We talked for a bit tonight, and he was inviting me over.

The mental struggle between Don't Ask - Don't Tell, came out on the Disclose my status side of the coin tonight. (This was going to be safe sex - not raw). And of course the response was suddenly a friend arrived at his door. But magically I was also immediately Blocked.

I wish Neg guys would remember how they react may affect what a Poz does the next time he thinks about disclosing his status. Based on how you're about to treat him would YOU want to be that next guy? I attempted to show my respect for him, and earn his in return. He showed me he was never worthy of either. The least you can do is at least be polite.

I don't wish HIV on anybody. But in that moment of anger, I hoped he shoves his uncut dick bare into a recently infected "Clean U B 2" guy, who can't even test Poz yet. That guy will have a viral load around 10 million, and I hoped buddies foreskin sucks every single viral particle in from his "D & D Free" trick.

No I don't really hope that. But for just a moment, when hurt and angered and treated like a piece of trash, it crosses my mind.

I needed just a bit of life affirming naked human contact tonight. What I got instead was a sole crushing kick to the curb like yesterday's trash.

I should know better by now. All those guys who profess to want "honesty, truth, and sincerity" will immediately shit in your mouth when they get any of it.

So all you brain dead Neggies who are absolutely certain that all Poz guys are liers. I have to ask, if you got treated like crap, and immediately rejected almost every time you told the "TRUTH," would you reveal your status each and every time? AT LEAST LEARN TO BE POLITE!

And it wouldn't hurt you to learn a thing or two about modern research like the Partner Study.

The guy is already poz. Perhaps he's trying to save me from making the same mistakes he's already made. Who knows.

I'd be there is also a tinge of jealousy or regret that he didn't go on PrEP or have it as an option before he became Poz.

The odometer clicks over another notch today. I was really hoping for it to go off with a bang (or two or three).

I have profiles on Squirt, and even put up posted my first hook-up thing on Craig's List. I thought it was all fun and sexy. I'm not quite ready to go the BBRT route yet. Any suggestions? Below is the Craig's List post.

Does it look too much like "Lonely old guy needs a pitty-fuck?"

Today is my B-Day -- Want to snuff out a "Candle" by sitting on it!

age : 57 body : average facial hair : Moustache hair : Greying Brown height : 5'9" (175cm) weight : 175

I'm an average looking guy, with fit and powerful legs from lots of cycling. I've been told I have the ass of a guy half my age. My upper half wouldn't be called buff, but I am working on getting it more toned. Hit the gym 4+ times a week & I am seeing results. Not quite ready to click the "Toned" flag yet, but the goal is in sight. Others have complemented me on the change, so I must be doing something right.

The odometer is kicking over another notch Today. I'd like to celebrate by sitting on a "Candle" or two. Would you like stuff your bringer of light and life in my Birthday Buns? Also into blowing out candles to make sticky wishes come true.

I've spent most of my life topping, but have decided to re-explore being a bottom. I've got a broad range of interests, depending on the man, my mood, and the moment. Your ideas always welcome. I defiantly have a fetish for Uncut dick, but don't let that stop you Cut guys from saying Hi! Love to run bare tongued through HWP furry chests, but smooth ones taste pretty good too.

Sadly I can't host my own birthday party, but I can travel to you.

If interested, give me a shout.

He's obviously one of those guys who thinks four things. The kind of things guys who know absolutely nothing about HIV think.

He's a top, therefore he thinks he's at almost no risk. Gee I hope he's an uncut one, but he wouldn't know there's a difference in risk between cut and uncut, right?

He actually believes that everyone who says they are Neg, is actually Neg. I'd bet you he has no idea about the window period, and only asks what the results of a guy's last test is. I'd also bet he never asks how long ago that Neg test result was. Some guys haven't been tested in years, but still proudly assert that they are Neg. (They might be, or might not be)

He is 100% sure that HIV is being spread by Poz guys under treatment. He has no idea that almost all new infections are from guys who don't know they are Poz.

His sole safe sex strategy is to immediately reject any guy who says he is Poz.

Let's see a guy who ridicules you for using a pill that might not be 100% effective (but is darn close if taken daily). He's on a BB site. It would be interesting to see what his explanation of HIS OWN HIV avoidance strategy is. Exactly how is his way 100% effective?

Most guys out there known almost nothing about HIV and it's transmission. They can't possibly understand an undetectable viral load. They'll scream "Junk Science" at the results from the Partner study. We can't expect these Einsteins to understand PrEP.

Moronic drivel. Consider the source, and ignore it. I'll bet you if he becomes Poz, he will be one of those "Clean U B 2" guys who isn't quite as clean as he thought, but will seed it into many people for months before he tests again.

Here's a good point. When a guy pulls that shit, ask him when his last test was, and how often he gets tested. That will give you a very good idea how knowledgeable he really is.

The Australians just updated their guideline on starting ARVs to the current best practice. Even their old cut off of 500 was above what most countries used to do.

At it's heart, TasP started as a Public health initiate. Find as many people who are Poz as you can, get their viral load down, and there will be less new infections. Public Health = Population wide.

The old school of thought was keep Pozzies off the drugs as long as possible, to reduce the potential damage caused by long term use of the ARVs

They sold TasP to us Pozzies by saying that waiting to start the drugs was really only putting off the inevitable by a few years. Better to start the drugs sooner, than to risk permanent damage to our immune systems by waiting. And thirdly, it would lower our risk of passing on the virus to our partners.

I don't really think the powers that be expected anything like the results out of the Partner study, when they said less risk to our play dates.

As a guy who took a break from drugs (back when they used to let us have a drug holiday) I can tell you it did do damage to my immune system. My CD4s have never recovered to their formerly high levels.

I think the when to start drugs was a trade off. Damage to immune system by untreated HIV, or potential future damage from longer exposure to the drugs. Both are a mix of good and bad. I think the potential benefits to a guy are better than the risk from the drugs. The meds are so much better now.

Bear's words are wise.

I do have to comment on the "take enough Poz loads and you'll become immune" statement. Pure and total BS. If that were possible, there would have been a vaccine many years ago. This isn't an ordinary virus. It's very tricky and constantly morphs it's appearance.

There are people who have a genetic immunity to HIV. Both parents need to contribute that gene for a guy to inherit it. Quite rare - only about 2% of the population are lucky enough to have it. Your immune system cannot be trained to resist HIV. There also appears to be some people who have a genetic suitability to HIV.

I really hate the implication that Poz guys are liers. Last time I checked there were at lest two people involved in a sex scene. Both share EQUAL responsibility to have a conversation about HIV. In addition to asking his status, also ask when he last was tested. If you guys didn't create such crappy stigma, it would make revealing status much easier. Most Poz guys will disclose their status if asked.

The most infectious Poz guy you'll meet became Poz a few weeks ago. He still thinks he's "D & D Free," but his viral load is in the neighbourhood of 10 million. A few months later "Mr. Clean U B 2" will have a viral load that has stabilized in the 30,000 the 120,000 range. Those guys are responsible for almost all of the new cases of HIV. Compare the numbers to an undetectable guy with a viral load of less than 40. Go look at the preliminary results from the Partner study to find out the risk level posed by an undetectable Pozzie.

If you're an BBr and you don't get tested every three months, you could easily be one of "think they're Neg" guys. Some people only get tested once a year. Half of the guys who have ever been tested, haven't checked their status again in OVER a year. Some people never get tested, but say they're Neg. About 60% of Poz guys under 25, DO NOT know they are Poz. For all other age groups, 25% of Pozzies are men who don't know they are Poz. And when they advertise themselves as Neg, they are dangerous liers.

Hep C does need blood to blood contact. The most common gay sex act where it's spread is fisting.

A rough fuck that draws a bottoms would do it too. NO dry fucking. Spit for lube is out too. Use a real lube and apply more of it throughout the fuck.

Normal for a person under stress is 500. My recollection is that normal for healthy folk is 800-1,200 .

Staying at undetectable is the real goal, and they usually won't change the regime, unless side effects start to show up, or he needs some other medication that isn't compatable. For example, I needed a PPI inhibitor for acid reflux, so they had to change me off of Sustiva.

There really isn't any danger of anything until it gets below 200. They used to pay huge attention the the CD4 count. Now it's more the CD4/CD8 percentage that they watch. The most important thing they watch about the CD4, is the trend. Mine rollercoasters between upper and lower 400's like a sine wave. Basically it's steady, no downward spiral, so my doc is happy. You can tell you bud you know several people in the same boat, and all their doctors are happy too.

I'd be willing to bet that at initial diagnosis his CD4 was very low. It's climbed to where it is, and is holding steady. It may slowly over time increase.

I took too long of a drug holiday (back when they let us take drug holidays) after bad side effects to Retonavir. When I went back my CD4 was very low. When it stopped falling it was at 89. (Yes Bear - yet another scary parallel in our lives.) By today's definition I had AIDS. But back then you needed the low CD4 and an opportunistic infection. I never had one, so I still say I' just Poz. Once I started on meds again, it slowly grew to where it is, and seems to be staying there.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm glad Bear isn't into bestiality. A little kink is good, but feeling up sick lambs just isn't a good kind of kink. Besides, how would he keep a constant supply of sick little sheep so he could get his jollies. It's good that he caught that mistake.

Some groups have a structured topic for the night.

Most are a little more free-form. They often start with a check-in on how everyone's week has been. New people are asked to tell a little about themselves. (No you don't have to share your whole story - Name, Bi, Known since January is enough) With most someone in the group shares an issue they're having at the moment, and others respond with how they've dealt with the same kind of problem. It's sort of like brainstorming about how to attack a challenge that person is facing.

At the moment, you might not feel you are able to share your situation with the group. And that's ok. But just being there, meeting other Poz people, and hearing that they have problems & fears similar to yours, puts your mind at rest. Right now you feel alone & lost in the world. Going to one of these groups would prove you are not alone.

I think you'll find that most newly diagnosed guys, at some point, feel exactly like you do right now.

It's pretty clear that there are a whole whack of people here, that are on your side. And all of us are offering help. If you don't feel you can go to a group, call any of the BZ guys that have sent you their number. We're pulling for you, and are here to get you through this. You are not alone!

I've been where you are now, more than once. Several times actually. I've made it out the other side of the mindset you're in. You will too.

This isn't about what your family and friends think. It's about you. Yes you're a different person now. So your path in life has change. You can't see the future. It truth, you never could see your Real future, just something you'd mapped out. Your new future is hazy and confused. You need time to put your thoughts in order.

Consider this. One of the things you feel HIV took away from you is a wife and children. Had you stayed Neg that may well have happened. But you know full well that you would still be playing with men on the side. There would be points you'd swear off it. Then it would come flooding back and you be out searching for man time. Binge on it probably. Guilt, never do it again, then binge again. It would happen over and over again.

That whole time, you'd feel shame about your little bits on the side. You'd be terrified of catching HIV, or any other STI, and bringing it home to your wife. You'd fear her discovering your actions, outing you to your family, and in the divorce, taking you for everything you own.

That's not how you saw the idealized future with a wife and kids. But to be blunt, I think you'll agree my version would have been part of that reality too.

All that would have carried it's own stress. I've met many a man who played that dual life. It ate at them. For some the relationships ended amicably, other it was a nasty divorce.

HIV is never a good thing -- I know. But I think you'll agree, it has changed your course, and prevented that particular kind of stressful future.

You may still find a wife. The HIV discussion may lead to a woman that accepts you bisexuality. You may still have children. That path is similar to your idealized one, but with one big difference. It would force you to honest about your sexual needs. And with everything in the open, it would be a happier, healthier existence.

Maybe what I laid out is just a fantasy. It's just an example of one possible outcome. One where HIV leads you down a better path than the one you planned.

Life with HIV isn't easy. But it's still life. Life can have amazing experiences and a roller coaster of emotions. You've just come screaming down a steep slope, and are now at a low point. But soon you climb another hill, scream down another slope, -- on and on till the end of the ride. Life can be thrilling and exhilarating. At the moment it has beat you down. Get up, & fight back. We can never know our future. Yours is yet to be written.

You've had many offers of support, and suggestions for ways to seek a helping hand. Take advantage of them. You will get through this.

I've met guys who just couldn't cum while fucking.

For example, if his J/O stroke is a very fast one, he can't achieve that same speed with hips a thrusting.

Or he needs a special little twist at the end of the stroke.

Another possibility, he likes to squeeze his dick hard just as he's cumming. It's no slight on your ass that you can't squeeze it as tight as his hand. If he did say that he needed that hard squeeze, you'd hear it as "He thinks I'm loose." So he throws the "it's safer" line as an explanation

And finally, maybe he's had an experience of thrusting so hard when cumming that he's bruised his pubic bone, or hurt a bottom. He therefore decides is safer not to do that again.

I've also heard that "ultimate intimacy" thing before

Either accept it as his personal quirt, or ask him to explain it next time Before you get your clothes off.

Make him keep a butt plug in his hole when you're not in it.

Bondage. If it's not something you play at regularly, rope might not be the best choice. But wrist and ankle restraints would be good. Once you've got him restrained, don't leave him alone. It's just safer that way

Once restrained, keep edging him right up to almost the point of no return, then stop. Then do it again, and again, and again. Each time he'll be more desperate for you to finish it that time.

Tit clamps, tit torture, close pins, ball weights, feathers, tickling, Hot wax, food sex -- God the list is endless

On thing to bare in mind is that if the doctor gave you a specific time you should take it, he's based that on a standard 9-5 job, with a five day work week. If his concept is "take it with breakfast," and you have breakfast at 10:30 PM, take it at 10:30.

Their guidelines of "take it at the same time every day" are really more about developing the habit. The drugs don't follow the Cinderella effect and go POOF out of your system in 24 hrs and 1 minute.

You can modify your drug schedule to fit your actual REAL life.

If the real life schedule is half a day away from the doctor instructed time, move the drugs four hours at a time for a few days, until you get it where your need it.

Of the message spewed out by rote "Take the drugs as the same time every day" delivered by the doctor, the important part is "TALE THE DRUGS at the same time EVERY DAY" People always put the emphases on the time. It is far less important than the Every Day part of the message.

And even then, you'll occasionally miss a day. It happens - you're human. If you remember later, take it. If not - oops you missed a dose. Don't beat yourself up. 95% compliance is their stated goal. I usually somehow miss one dose a month, on some crazy ass day with a wacky schedule. It has never effected my viral loads.

You, clearly, made your choice and while I don't know the circumstances in which you became HIV+ . . .

I made no CHOICE. There was no CHOICE. I couldn't CHOOSE safer sex, because I caught HIV before the first principles of harm reduction were even published.

I didn't feel I was at any much risk, because it was only happening to guys in the multi-million populations bases. It was happening to the guys went to the baths several nights a week getting fucked by twenty or more guys a night, and sucking another twenty dicks for their coffee break. Guys who huffed down a bottle of poppers a night. (You know, re-reading that I just got struck by the irony that those guys are the roll models the cum dump bottoms are trying to emulate)

I lived in a city of just slightly over a half million. I considered myself lucky if I got laid a couple of times a month. Not one single case of GRID had been reported in Canada. The nearest cases were many thousands of kilometres away. I thought there was very little risk I would get "The Gay Plague." (GRID = Gay Related Immuneo Efficiency the original name of AIDS, years before HIV was discovered)

I've done peer counselling with lots of newly diagnosed guys who thought they were "well aware of the risks." In 28 years, I've never met a single Poz guy who did not wish he had stayed Neg.

You have a CHOICE. You could go on PrEP. Maybe try it for six months or a year. I somewhat jokingly say it gives you all the inconvenience of being Poz, with few of challenges caused by actually being Poz. Of course your other choice is to stay the course you've already laid out for yourself.

Have a PM chat with some of the newly diagnosed guys on here who thought they knew the risks. Ask them how their view of those risks changed when confronted with the reality of actually being Poz.

My thought on testing frequency aren't about you, or your goal of becoming Poz. They are about respect for your play partners, and the broader community. It's about getting you on to treatment quickly, so that you spread the virus to as few people as possible. It's about TasP.

I know that there is nothing I can say that can say that will change your point of view. I'm just a crazy old man whaling against the wind. I've been Poz for over half my life. Luckily I have stayed healthy and never had a life serious or life threatening consequence from HIV. Like Bear, I am suffering early aging, and long term effects of the drugs, or the virus, or both. My challenges are different than his. Living with HIV has social, economic, physiological, physiological and dozens of other effects on your life. You CANNOT know what they all are. I still don't know them all, but I do know there will be new hurdles caused by it in the future.

FlavaWorks posted this on the Queerity comments for this storey

Justin aka Snow Bunni last worked with FlavaWorks and CocoDorm nearly five years ago in 2009 and was HIV Negative. He NEVER did any bareback porn with our FlavaWorks or CocoDorm.

We are very supportive in his battle.

I forget if this number is from the CDC or a Canadian survey I was reading. 40% of gay guys under 25 have never been tested. Well from the FlavaWorks comment, he doesn't fit that one.

This stat I know is from the CDC - 60% of Poz guys under 25 do not know they are Poz. He seems to fit that one to a T.

There are few details here. But it smells like he was diagnosed with an opportunistic infection, and tested Poz at the same time. I wonder if he ever got himself tested after he left FlavaWorks? It's very rare for someone to progress from Poz to AIDS in a short amount of time. Seroconvert shortly after he left Flava and progress over five years - that's reasonable. But it implies either he didn't get tested for five years, or got tested and ignored the results.

The US medical system is totally foreign to me. (I didn't mean it as a pun, but it turned out that way. I'm Canadian.) But my dim understanding of how things work down there, is that if he couldn't afford the meds, and didn't have insurance, there is usually some way to get him the ARVs. State level programs, or Medicade, or Medicare, or grants from the drug companies. Is that correct? Or is he likely to have fallen through a donut hole / gap in the treatment cascade?

Rayne: If by the comment about "preventative medications" you mean a triple drug antiretroviral regime, we're saying the same thing. If you're meaning PrEP, it wasn't approved yet. It could have been in early trial stages, but he would need to have been in the right place, at the right time to get in on a study.

Listening to the piece I heard a guy pussyfooting, and not saying much. It was almost as bad as the news conference of a politician caught cheating on his wife. Big deal. Sick guy in a bed talking to a camera. Been there. Done that. Saw it in the 80's with guys who were in much worse shape then him. Unless he has a big fan base, I don't think it makes any impact. Maybe a tiny, very dim light bulb might light the occasional young mind with "Oh! - You mean that still happens?"

Reading the comments, it was all bitch and blame, and finger pointing. Nothing constructive until about the 87th comment.

The lack of anything looking to the future, or messaging to guys his age about how to prevent this kind of tragedy inspired me to write.

I put together the six point plan, down at the bottom. Way too many sub-points, I know. Formatting went to hell when it was posted

After the "Plan" I wrote an into - a few posts down. It plays down the old toolkit of just condoms, in favour of the newer technologies. It has a footnote on oral sex. I used "bad words" like Ass, Pozzie Cock, and Suck Dick, so it's auto flagged for moderator review. Hopefully it will show up tomorrow. (Elsewhere I frequently get the question "Is it safe to suck on a Poz guy's dick?" Hence he footnote.)

I'm playing with this idea. Nobody pays attention to the old 1980's "Condoms, Condoms, Condoms" message. (especially around here).

Creating a new safe sex mantra: Test, Treat, TasP, PrEP, PEP, Talk, Stigma & condoms

For the younger guys who wouldn't know what a mantra is - Give it a Hashtag #TTTPPTS&c

The condoms are still there. It appeases the "powers that be." The Condom Nazis can't say they're not promoted. But they're in lower case, at the end, -- an afterthought. Still there for guys who are ok with rubbers.

Somebody's going to quibble that Test & Treat = TasP. I'm playing TasP as when the VL gets low, or undetectable

A few more slight variations:

Test, Treat, TasP, PrEP, PEP, and Talk that's how we'll end the Stigma and wipe out HIV. Oh yea, and condoms will help a bit too. #TTTPPTS&c

Test, Treat, TasP, PrEP, PEP, and Talk Without Stigma. If they're right for you, use condoms too #TTTPPTWS&c

Test, Treat, TasP, PrEP, PEP, Talk, End Stigma & Oh yea, condoms will help a bit too. #TTTPPTES&c (I think I like this last one best)

Any thoughts? Wasted effort? Or a starting point of something useful?

I apologize. I didn't check your profile, or see your location. I jumped the the conclusion that you were from the US or UK or Canada or one of the other first world nations where testing was more accessible.

I live in Canada.

I must have seen just one to many "I can't wait to become Poz" posts that day, and got a little hot under the collar and emotional. At least partly in my defence, mspchaser jumped on your thread and in post 3 said "I'm waiting for that poz result! I can hardly wait" & "I'll continue to seek out whatever loads I can get with preference to poz." With his name and text, he clearly is a chaser, and he is in the US. Both of you had roughly a year between testings. The best testing practices are every three months, or at the very least every six months. I just lumped you two together.

I'd have to find the tread and check the dates, but I'd be willing to bet it was around the same couple of days I was having a fight with someone who suggested that tops only needed to get tested once every two years.

Knowing what we know now, I caught HIV in the fall of 1982 or spring of 1983. That's about 1.5 to 1.75 years after the first few cases of an rare cancer showed up in New Your City, and a dozen people had an odd pneumonia in San Francisco. We didn't know what caused it, and we didn't know how it was transmitted. The first booklet on the principals that became harm reduction guidelines "How to have Sex in an Epidemic" had not even been published in New York yet. The words Safe and Sex had never been used in the same sentence. Condoms were used to prevent pregnancy, and gay men didn't get pregnant.

I had a one night roll in the hay (sex) with a man from here that visited New York frequently. He went to all the leather bars, and bathhouses -- the "sex on premises" sites. I had a fun night with him. It was adventuresome sex - things I'd never tried before. That was the first time I'd ever rimmed someone. A few days later, I got fevers and chills and developed a massive throat infection. (That's too soon for fuck flu.) My tonsils swelled up so large I could not swallow my own spit, let alone food or water. I went to the hospital. When they lanced (cut open) my tonsils the puss came out with such force it splashed across the doctor's chest. It smelled exactly like shit. I remember asking the doctor about that. He said "it's all the same bacteria through the digestive track." I spent two weeks in the hospital on intravenous antibiotics. While thinking of the story now, I remember fevers, chills, and night sweats, and the tonsils swelling up again a couple of months later, just before I had the tonsils removed. Hmm - Now THAT could have been my seroconversion.

I do not blame the rimming, or tonsil infection for causing my HIV. But it seems logical that with him spending a lot of time in New York, at the time when (I think it was still called GRID then) was exploding with many new cases every week, and him tolling the kind of places that would have spread HIV like crazy, that I probably caught it from him. I'm pretty sure we both topped each other one or more times that night. (Hey, how many details can you remember for a one night stand 32 years ago?). I remember he moved back to Calgary from New York, after his lover's death in the early 90's. I know I attended his funeral a year or two later.

As you can tell from my nickname, I was diagnosed in 1985, when an allergic reaction put me back in the hospital. They ignored the allergic reaction symptoms, asked if I was gay (my partner was pacing in the waiting room), and though nothing was said, it was clear what they thought. I didn't see any staff again, without them wearing gowns, masks, gloves, booties, hats, face splash shields -- the full medical drape. There were bio-hazard disposal bins in the hall, and a bio-hazard sign on the door to my room. Every day some new problem in a major system (lungs, heart, liver, kidneys) appeared. It was two weeks before Christmas 1985, and I did not think I was going to live till Christmas. A week later, after tons of tests, and the complications from the allergic reactions settled down, with no treatment other than IV fluids, I suspect they really only flushed the toxic drug out of my system. The doctor walked into my room and said "We finally think we've figured out what you've got! With think you have AIDS!" The tone was "I won the lottery! Millions of dollars!" Which I suppose, for him it was like a lottery. A young Internal Medicine Resident (junior doctor), and he was seeing his first case of this rare new disease. 1985 was the first year an HIV test was available. He asked for permission to do the test. I said yes. They drew blood. There were lots of good reasons for NOT wanting to know the answer back then. It was the height of the AIDS panic. People were being fired, evicted, burnt out of their homes. I changed my mind, but it was too last - the test was done, and it came back Poz. Looking at old statistics, I was the probably the 30th person diagnosed in my province, and by the time I was diagnosed, half of the other 29 were already dead. No treatments were available until 1989. The great death stopped about a year after the triple drug cocktails started in 1996.

HIV has changed my life in ways to numerous to count. Carrier paths I didn't take. Love interests I did not pursue. A future retirement I did not save for, because I did not expect to live that long. Like Bear, I too am suffering early aging, and long term effects of the drugs, or the virus, or both. Different from his, but still challenging.

It wounds me to see young men getting something we've known how to prevent for 30 years. It terrifies me that there are teens who are seeking HIV with some misguided notion that being Poz will "set them free." It doesn't, and never will. The scariest prediction I've seen, was a US Centre For Disease Control mathematical model that says, for gay men aged 22 now, one half will be Poz by the time they are 50.

Again, I apologize for assuming you were a chaser. But I think you can see that's a very emotional issue for me. I sometimes don't weight my words carefully enough when I think I'm seeing a bug bum boy. Again - Sorry.

I've managed to navigate the last 28 years with only two bareback incidents. One way back in 1992 topping a guy of unknown status (I've used BS justification to convince myself he must have been Poz too.) One was last summer bottoming for another Pozzie. But I've had a really crappy, minimalist sex life. Why am I here? I haven't quite formulated my own question for the "Making the Decision to Bareback" forum. But I will eventually put a thread there.

Understanding more about your situation - I propose this.

I know there are a lot of pin prick, drop of blood, add a drop of reactant, and results show in a minute of two tests out on the net. I know most of them are fake and crap. But with our international reach of members here there may be tests available at a pharmacy in their country, that are small and light and easy to ship. Or maybe one of our members knows of a reputable online place to purchase those tests. There may be problems getting them through customs into your country. But it's worth a try. Maybe we can find a way to get you tests, that allow you to have you're own best recommended testing cycle, with less stress and judgment than you feel in your own medical system. Though it would be wise to use your local system when possible as a double check.

So guys, speak up, any ideas?

I also remember another thread mentioning a licensed generic Truvada manufacturer in India. I believe it was a slightly older formulation. It was less expensive than the US. Again a possible customs problem at your end. I wonder if we could find a way for you to order it, and get it sent to you? Probably a bad idea because of the blood and kidney function tests you'd need regularly.

Maybe we can find a gay or gay friendly doctor in your country, with whom you can form a working relationship, to get you the drugs and tests you need, for proper PrEP follow-up. While I don't know what country you are in, it is possible that Truvada may be available locally for much less than in the US.

Again - throwing the floor open guys. Ideas? Suggestions? Can we find a way to help protect a brother in need?

To the ED issues, have you looked into trimix? Have it myself, and is reasonably effective.

The biggest issue for me is I'm Poz. Using Trimix requires I open a direct channel in my dick into blood vessels. Nothing I've seen says you even get a drop of blood out of it, but it's still a freaky thought. Open wound on my Pozzie dick, and stick it someone's mouth? Drill a bloody hole in my toxic cock, and stick it in someone's ass? It just screams in my head "I'm obviously trying to infect you!" You might as well tattoo Stealther, and Gift Giver across my tool. Let's pre-allert the crown prosecute so he can get a head start on the charges and court documents.

I suppose a chat with a urologist might possibly alley those fears. Of course his probably recommendation would be "Always wrap it up." What's the point of my trying to figure out BB if Trimix would require I use a condom?

Is there a risk of infection to me? Vaginally I don't think there's as much nasty stuff, but up the butt? Again seems like a recipe for disaster. I'm picturing them having to slice off a gangrenous dick. The answer again is probably "Put a condom on that cowboy." More fodder for discussion with the Pee doc.

I get how that stuff would work in the context of a relationship. Some necking & passionate foreplay. Lube and fingers and get everything ready. Then "Excuse me hun, I've got to go shoot up my dick." If people think putting on a rubber is too much of an interruption, what's the several minutes needed to get needle inspired wood going be like? But he loves me, and I love him, so we put up with it.

I'm single, with no relationship on the horizon. A one night stand isn't going to accept the wait. If I had a good fuck bud, he might, but it sure would be a buzz kill. And I don't even have any fuck buds, so that point is mute.

And finally, it lasts for 15 minutes. That's reasonable for an at home fuck. Not so much for a group thing, or trying to pick up someone at the tubs.

Take it all together and I don't think it's comparable with a single fag's lifestyle.

For the moment, I'm re-leaning how to be a bottom. That's one of the "How did I get here" things. A fairly hot Neg Bi guy who occasionally passes though want's to BB my hole, and tag me with his DNA. I've probably given it a hundred hours of thought, and changed my mind a dizzying number of times. I guess I've pretty much decided to let him do it.

I'm feeling the pull of the dark side of the force. I just hope when he cums he doesn't yell "Luke! I am your Father!!!"

I've topped most of my life, and I do love to pound a good hole. It really is killing me that it's been taken away from me.

I'm holding out hope that the testosterone levels are low, and my GP will let me supplement them. When I discussed T levels with my HIV doc, he said "What do we do with that info if we get it?" I mentioned that the US VA recommends intramuscular injection every two weeks. He mumbled something about potential negative side effects and problems with whatever way T levels were boosted.

If a needle and rubber city ends up being my only option, and I find a guy who's understanding about it, I'll review it with my doc. I think he said I'd need a referral to a urologist to get a prescription for Trimix.

Yes, humans like all animals are born with the desire to breed or be bred. While I still sometimes have non-raw sex (tired of calling it safesex) it always and has always felt like something was missing, but when I cum in a guy or have him cum in me then I feel great and know I am doing what I was designed to do.

I'm not quite sure the pure bottom has that same genetically coded need to be bred. Perhaps he does somehow get in touch with the primeval lizard brain, and connect with the female need to be bred. And maybe whatever the connection, it's part of what makes us Gay. I'm going to have to think about if our asses were genetically programmed to be a sex organ. Internally it's more about stimulating other organs that are in close proximity. There is no doubt that, at least externally, it has a wealth of enjoyable sensations.

Personally I don't think a bottom draws on that deep dark level of the brain. My gut says it's about attraction to the dominant male -- the leader of the pack, and the need to be a member of a tribe (even if the tribe consists of just two people at that moment). In our close simian relatives the pecking order for their troupe is often reinforced by the more dominant male dry humping a lower ranking male. To my knowledge they don't actually enter the other. It's more like frontage. And maybe that's where Darwinian biology led to many pleasurable nerve endings around the butt. It creates a reward for the lower rank member of the tribe submitting to the higher positioned dominance over him. In troupes of Bonobo monkeys (our closest genetic relatives), this happens a large number of times a day. Heck they hump as greetings, to resolve conflicts, to release stress, because a leaf fell from a tree, and just about any reason you can think of. (I'm imagining the cum dumps squirming in their seats while pondering about that.)

That's well above the lizard brain Need to Breed, but still deep in the subconscious. A need to belong, and a need to be needed. At the endocrine level there's a flood of addictive dopamine and endorphin during sex. Bonding and love fall in there too, on a subconscious plane. And of course the top layer of learned responses, conscious thought, and curiosity to explore new sensations or experiences. Sex is one of our most complicated behaviours. We are complex beasts!

By no means do I consider the above animistic urges as justification for old guard leather total ownership of a slave, or the "tops are supreme, and bottoms are just holes to be used for a top's pleasure" attitude I see spoken of so often here. To each their own kink. For me sex is about two equals, both striving for their own, and their partner's pleasure. Even in role play, the goal is the same, because there is consensual choice in accepting the position and play.