How’d we get here?

[leatherkinkster]

Several years ago (in my late 20s) I was chatting with an older (upper 40s) guy on a fetish website, and we were discussing HIV status. He told me that in his younger days, he was very much a safe sex advocate, but that a few years ago, he stopped worrying about it. The prudent part of me thought this was dumb, but the horny part of me was very turned on at the idea of just giving in and starting to take loads.

And now, about six years later, I find myself in the same situation. I’ve been beating off to bareback porn and stories for years (even some of the chaser stuff). The idea of “letting go” and just letting guys fuck me without discussion of status is a HUGE turn-on. And I find myself making the same decision. To just stop worrying about things. To enjoy sex more and do what turns me on. I’ve decided to go on PrEP to minimize some of the risks, and I really haven’t decided what my actions will be… but here I am doing what I’ve advocated against for years. It’s off-limits… it’s taboo… and so it’s hot.

Since I made the mental decision to start taking loads and to go on PrEP, I’ve had several discussions with friends. Interestingly enough, I’ve discovered that some have made the same decisions recently (both with and without PrEP). Others have been tempted to, but are still holding out.

So what is this… are we all wired to breed and /or get bred? Are we fighting nature? Is this just an internal conflict that we all must grapple with? Are we victims of the repression of sexuality in America? And where does this leave the next generation.

I guess I’m just looking for perspective. How’d we get here? And is our story basically the same (even if the timeline is different)?

[BabyBobby]

Yes, humans like all animals are born with the desire to breed or be bred. While I still sometimes have non-raw sex (tired of calling it safesex) it always and has always felt like something was missing, but when I cum in a guy or have him cum in me then I feel great and know I am doing what I was designed to do.

[Guest ff-whole]

Yes, I feel the same way...

It feels like something I just have to do to feel whole... Be a slut, present my ass for anyone to fill it. Although I sometimes get scared, when I get hornet and ready in a sauna, all my inhibitions drop and I just become the cum slut.

[bearbandit]

My article "A Return to the Old Normal" http://www.beyondpositive.org/2013/11/27/steve-return-old-normal-nsfw/ is perhaps a contribution to the debate. (I always know I'm on the right track when the editor adds "nsfw" to my columns).

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

What does nsfw mean?

Actually return to bare makes perfect sense. In the 50's and before, straight couples who didn't want kids used condoms. Then in early 60's the pill came generally available and straight couples ditched condoms in favor of the natural pleasure of bare. Gay men are no different. Bare just feels so much better.

[bearbandit]

NSFW = "Not safe for work"

I don't have the URL's to hand but one of Mark S King's most controversial columns was entitled "Your Mother Liked it Bareback", and in a column supporting PrEP he used a series of quotes which the reader was supposed to think were recent, but actually came from the hearings into whether the contraceptive pill was should be licensed. Do a search for "my fabulous disease" which is his blog and you should find him.

He's not into spreading a prescriptive or proscriptive message, just commenting on what's going on. And he makes perfect sense. PrEP works: use it, ditto TasP. Blame and STI transmission are two separate unrelated things.

Look at this way: I'm probably considered to be the most controversial writer for the magazine I write for ( www.beyondpositive.org ) and he leaves me streets behind (possibly because I have osteopenia and live half way up a mountain ) When he re-tweeted one of my rants it was better than than the editor using nsfw in the url of one of my articles...

[leatherkinkster]

Here's the link for Mark S King's article: http://marksking.com/my-fabulous-disease/your-mother-liked-it-bareback/

I think he's very right about the double standard between gay sex and straight sex.

[Poz1956]

Let's face it, play safe guys who are beating off to BB porn, are programming themselves to eventually give in and bareback. It's a monkey see, monkey do world. And BB is constantly being shoved down the throat of all the young guys. With pretty much any free porn online these days, BB vids are the top choice. Raw also has a caché, and a rebel connotation. Even the names we call it sound more fun, or like a nastier harder fuck.

Honestly I prefer the "better production value, clear sound, meticulous lighting, interesting sets, handsome men, and thin thread of a story line," condom porn, to the cheap hotel room fucks of "professional" BB porn. Maybe I just haven't seen the right vids. Up to this point BB porn has always given me a quinsy feeling in my stomach, with immediate thoughts of HIV transmission, and remorse because I didn't think I had that option. But hell, now I've been corrupted and even bought Poz on Poz BB porn. (It was cheap & I was curious) Nice piece of kink, and yea it gives me wood, but I still think the condom stuff creates hotter fantasies.

I understand condom fatigue for guys who have been using them for ten plus years. But for a teen, just coming out, it's not condom fatigue. In a lot of cases, they've never even had any safe sex education. Or received such a sad, pathetic, mechanical message, that it sucks all the heat out of the sex. Bare is forbidden fruit. It's "You're not the boss of me -- I can do anything I want!" Every where he turns, the message is "bare is better." There really isn't even room for a discussion of safe sex any more.

When I see a Bi guy virgin to butt sex trolling for his first fuck, and stipulating that it must be BB, I wonder "How the hell is his ass going to know the difference?" He hasn't had anything up there, so the feeling is going to be intense regardless of which way it goes in. What made him want his cherry broken by bare cock?

It truly saddens me when I see a 26 year old say he's been Poz for two or three years. On here we see lots the young guys who look forward to becoming Poz, because it will "set them free." And the bug chasers just scare the shit out of me. Being Poz is not glamorous.

There is a huge wave of Poz guys coming. It will be bigger than the peak of the first wave in the mid 90's. The CDC's prediction for 22 year old gay guys of today, is that half of them will be Poz by the time they are 50. Big Pharma is going to make a fortune. Our health care systems aren't prepared for it. When the long term effects of ARVs start to kick in, it's going to be a mess.

Our HIV service organizations are being starved of money. The last "new and hot" pro condom poster produced by my locale ASO is over ten years old. Their donors expect and demand condom only safer sex messaging. "Condoms, condoms, condoms" is an old message that everyone immediately dismisses, or at least tunes out these days. Maybe if they started screaming "Testing, Testing, Testing" with a small side order of condoms, it would be something different, and might actually be heard. Most of the ASOs are not comfortable even discussing PrEP, or actively fight against it.

But even if the young guys heard the "testing" message, bureaucracy stands in the way of them actually getting tested. You can't get home testing kits here because the government thinks that without pre & post test counselling they will do more harm than good. The STI clinic has no evening hours. Their bathhouse testing is from 5:00 to 6:30 PM on Fridays. How many guys are cruising the bathhouse at those hours? And any suggestion of taking the testing to the gay guys, at bars or dances or pride events gets rejected because they might have had a drink. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of guys need a drink to screw up the guts to get tested. And while the world is flocking to Treatment as Prevention, only one province in Canada has adopted it.

If PrEP were cheep and widely available, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Neg guys jumping on the bareback bandwagon. But it is neither. Maybe things will change when PrEP is a slow release three month injectable, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet that shot will be priced equivalent or higher than three months of Turvada.

It's one thing if guys have made a careful, considered decision to BB, where they've weighed the risks, and the benefits. But it's something different when they know squat about HIV, are under peer pressure, and having bareback shoved down their throat everywhere they look. (or should that read "shoved up their ass") For many I have to ask, is it a conscious choice, or is it something that has been branded, and marketed to them like overly caffeinated energy drinks?

I envy the guys who at least have the option of staying Neg. I didn't. Back in 82 a one night roll in the hay with a guy who trolled the nasty & fun places in New York, set my destiny in motion. The words Safe and Sex had never been used in the same sentence back then.

I was perfectly happy with playing safe, until I started to get pressured into BB. Neg guys - you know - the kind that used to scream at the mere mention of my status, and run from the room like scared little school girls. Suddenly I hear them saying they're perfectly comfortable topping me raw. "Awe, come on hun, please, it's so much more sensual." What kind of mind fuck is that?

But of course I don't get to feel that same sensuality with my dick, because those same guys wouldn't feel safe. And personally I don't want to put them at risk with my Pozzie spunk. Hell, my "twice as likely to experience erectile dysfunction", "five times more likely to have low testosterone for my age," Pozzie cock doesn't even let me top all that much any more. And whooptie fucking dooo -- my ARVs just happen to make ED drugs less effective. (Hey Bug Chasers - think about that shit!! HIV's early aging is crappy) But it's in my brain, that the stronger sensation just might make my tool work better for a while longer. How do I reconcile 28 years of "you can NEVER do that" brainwashing (that I still receive on every visit to the HIV clinic), with the modern "undetectable is the new safe sex" coming from other sources?

Well the natural answer would seem to be go fuck other Pozzies. What, you think just because they're Poz they stopped being the ageist, youth obsessed, perfect body seeking, size queen, fur loving, picky bitches that other fags are? Nobody wants an average looking, average hung 57 year old guy. All the other 50 somethings want a twink, or jock, or muscled dude. They want well hung, or uncut, or (___ Fill in Desired Feature Here ___) that I don't have. And there just aren't that many diagnosed Pozzies here. (I can guarantee there are a lot of undiagnosed "Clean U B 2" "D&D Free" ones running around.)

The original question was "How did we get here?" I don't know where I am right now. I can't quite see where "here" is, and Google Maps isn't helping me. I'm struggling with the decision of where, when, and with whom, and maybe even IF I'm going to bareback. I'm here to read, and learn, and try to sort all that out in my head. I think the answer is yes, under some cirCUMstances, but don't quite know what those are yet. I've given barebacking more thought and time than several years worth of watching porn, and nightly J/O fantasies, combined.

It's comforting to find a place where I can be Poz and not shit on because of it. Cathartic to share experiences and knowledge. And neat to connect with others who share these same little passengers that changed our lives forever.

[bearbandit]

(Hey Bug Chasers - think about that shit!! HIV's early aging is crappy)

Thank you Poz1956 for voicing my exact thoughts! There can't be very more "older" or "experienced" than you and me here: it's good to see someone writing what I would I would have written. Now I can go have my afternoon nap... (Going through a severe fatigue period at present. I'm going to a retreat at the weekend and am going to have to ask people finding my asleep in the public rooms to wake me: I don't want to miss any time of the retreat)

Edited March 26, 2014 by bearbandit

[Laurawifey]

Hey guys hope i can throw my thoughts into this form the straight side of things

I couldnt agree more about what 'BabyBobby' said "Yes, humans like all animals are born with the desire to breed or be bred. While I still sometimes have non-raw sex (tired of calling it safesex) it always and has always felt like something was missing, but when I cum in a guy or have him cum in me then I feel great and know I am doing what I was designed to do."

I personally find it to be a fully natural experience to have a guy seed my insides, its what my sexual organs are designed for

id even go as far to say that ignoring the urge is almost as bad as trying to quit smoking, whenever ive gone through times of as bobby says non-raw sex i always feel like im cheating myself or being wasteful

all the effort you put into sex be it being the one who is fucked or the one doing the fucking, that warm gooey sensation as a mans cock starts to twitch and spasm is your reward

Laura xx

[fskn]

I understand condom fatigue for guys who have been using them for ten plus years. But for a teen, just coming out, it's not condom fatigue. In a lot of cases, they've never even had any safe sex education. Or received such a sad, pathetic, mechanical message, that it sucks all the heat out of the sex. Bare is forbidden fruit. It's "You're not the boss of me -- I can do anything I want!" Every where he turns, the message is "bare is better." There really isn't even room for a discussion of safe sex any more.

At least the message is honest. Bare is better. I'm fine promoting "safe sex" -- I did serious volunteer work in that field for years -- but not lying. If we limit ourselves to telling people that there are potential health benefits, they might choose to use condoms part of the time. If, on the other hand, we pretend that using condoms feels just as good, people will stop using them the moment they've had the epiphany of that first bareback fuck. Realizing that we lied to them, people will then tune out anything worthwhile we might have to say about sexual health.

When I see a Bi guy virgin to butt sex trolling for his first fuck, and stipulating that it must be BB, I wonder "How the hell is his ass going to know the difference?" He hasn't had anything up there, so the feeling is going to be intense regardless of which way it goes in. What made him want his cherry broken by bare cock?

You're ignoring many levels of psychology. (Still, I trust that you are sincere, in the same way that I honestly believe that Nancy Reagan thought that preventing drug abuse was as simple as telling people to "say no". I don't see her as simple-minded or negligent, in the way that others do.)

There could well be a difference in physical sensation for a bottom. Unless your butt is naturally hairless or you're using silicone-based lubricant, which someone new to gay sex wouldn't know about, which many people can't afford, and which few people carry with them, the condom will drag against the hair on your butt, in a way that the skin of a bare penis does not. It's not a pleasant sensation, especially in a part of the body with so many nerve endings.

But psychologically speaking,

- Your first gay sex act (or any gay sex act, for that matter) isn't always planned. You might not have a condom with you.

- Having to stop and wait for your top to put on a condom is an unnatural interruption. Sexual excitement is spontaneous. Annoying wait aside, you might fear losing your nerve to try getting fucked, or your top might fear losing his erection.

- Intimacy plays a big role. In relating to other people, do we feel better when we say or hear "no", or "yes"?

Most of the ASOs are not comfortable even discussing PrEP, or actively fight against it.

Good God, why would they want to fight a prevention strategy shown to have near perfect effectiveness under proper adherence? It's not an either/or question, in any case. An effective and ethical HIV-prevention organization promotes all available strategies, including frequent testing, early and sustained HIV drug therapy (Treatment as Prevention/TaSP), PrEP, PEP, condoms, and harm reduction.

PrEP is always prescribed in conjunction with frequent HIV testing, because the two drugs in Truvada are strong enough to prevent, but not to treat, an HIV infection. (Current treatment practice calls for starting a three-drug regimen soon after diagnosis.) For a prevention-minded organization, the built-in promotion of regular HIV testing is a beneficial side effect of launching a PrEP program.

But even if the young guys heard the "testing" message, bureaucracy stands in the way of them actually getting tested. You can't get home testing kits here because the government thinks that without pre & post test counselling they will do more harm than good. The STI clinic has no evening hours. Their bathhouse testing is from 5:00 to 6:30 PM on Fridays. ...

Regrettably, this is all true. We need to get past our Victorian sexual mores. This problem is serious throughout Canada, and also in most parts of the United States. Even in the San Francisco Bay Area, service access differs markedly from one city to the next. Try getting PrEP; or a qualitative PCR RNA HIV viral load test after a high-risk exposure; or HIV drug therapy immediately on diagnosis; in Oakland. Suburban public and private medical providers lack experience and current knowledge.

If PrEP were cheep and widely available, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Neg guys jumping on the bareback bandwagon. But it is neither. Maybe things will change when PrEP is a slow release three month injectable, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet that shot will be priced equivalent or higher than three months of Turvada.

Yes, PrEP has not yet received approval in Canada, and yes, non-poor, non-senior Canadians must pay out-of-pocket or rely on employer coverage for prescription drugs. Both of these problems can be solved. If we tackle the first problem, Canadians will already have an advantage because prescription drug prices are regulated in Canada.

In the US -- hardly a model for health care access -- PrEP was approved by the FDA two years ago. Thus, private insurance plans for non-poor, non-senior Americans cover it on the same terms as other prescription drugs. PrEP is available to those who take the time to inquire. Insurance for the poor (Medicaid) is a federal-state partnership, so states have discretion, but it is known that some states do cover PrEP.

The patent on Truvada will expire in a matter of years. Less-than-daily dosing, and alternative HIV drugs, are already being studied.

But of course I don't get to feel that same sensuality with my dick, because those same guys wouldn't feel safe. And personally I don't want to put them at risk with my Pozzie spunk.

This makes me sad, and it makes me ashamed on behalf of uninformed Neg guys. I have never treated Poz guys this way, and I often confront Neg guys who say stupid things like "Neg and clean only". They're not fun to play with. My thought experiments for them:

- What if you fell in love with a Poz guy? Does your heart know his HIV status? Love is supposed to be deeper than that, right?

- What if you were physically attracted to a Poz guy? Does your dick know his HIV status? Sexual attraction is supposed to be instinctive, right?

You need to meet the right men. As a Neg guy on PrEP, I'm glad to be able to play freely with Poz guys. Poz guys get extra points from me, since in many cases -- and without romanticizing HIV at all -- a person's becoming Poz is evidence of an active, uninhibited, pleasurable sex life.

[wood]

Quite frankly we got "here" by guys like me. Im 30, I grew up during the AIDs crisis, I know what it is, and I got the education. When I first started having sex, I used condoms, now I usually dont. Where I differ from many other guys is that I am also very educated on the subject matter. However I have seen highly intelligent people become poz because they simply didnt care. One guy is a 23 year old hot as hell 6'1" yale grad making 120k a year. he just really didnt care.

Of course at this point its important to ask why wouldn't someone care about getting HIV, and that answer is also surprisingly simple, its now easily managed. it is viewed as a pill a day and nothing more. Long term effects are really too far off for most people to care, even if there are some.

There are many underlying issues here, but one major one isnt that difficult to figure out, condoms suck. No one really wants to use them, and on one really likes them, gay or straight. When I was coming out I used them because I didint know any better about risk reduction techniques. Hell the first time I knowingly fucked a poz undetectable guy raw, I thought for sure I was going to become poz. As I grew older I grew wiser, and became more of a raw top, safe bottom, now with PrEP, I really dont care much but stick to undetectable guys.

For the guys who are not as educated on the issue, its simple for them, neg for neg only. Of course in practice this doesnt work, but it at least makes them feel better, and they can at least then pretend to be shocked when they get a poz diagnosis.

We also got here but a fundamental lack in any sort of progress in how we treat HIV education, testing, and treatment. I dont mean this on a scientific leavel, I mean this on a human level. For 30 years gay men have been preached to use condoms every time when the level has remained stagnant. At least in the US clinics usually cant get funding unless they preach this condom mantra that has been proven to not really work in real life. When condom use was at 50% 20 years ago, and its still there now, I dont see anyway that mantra is working.

I also believe the testing system is completely broken. People may think I am crazy but I fully support mandatory testing protocols. The simple fact is that people are getting infected from people who dont know their status, not from people who know and are on treatment. Weeding that variable out, would almost certainly result in a huge drop in new infections. Tie to school, tie it to taxes, make it confidential, I dont care, but make people get tested.

I understand condom fatigue for guys who have been using them for ten plus years. But for a teen, just coming out, it's not condom fatigue. In a lot of cases, they've never even had any safe sex education. Or received such a sad, pathetic, mechanical message, that it sucks all the heat out of the sex. Bare is forbidden fruit. It's "You're not the boss of me -- I can do anything I want!" Every where he turns, the message is "bare is better." There really isn't even room for a discussion of safe sex any more.

It truly saddens me when I see a 26 year old say he's been Poz for two or three years. On here we see lots the young guys who look forward to becoming Poz, because it will "set them free." And the bug chasers just scare the shit out of me. Being Poz is not glamorous.

There is a huge wave of Poz guys coming. It will be bigger than the peak of the first wave in the mid 90's. The CDC's prediction for 22 year old gay guys of today, is that half of them will be Poz by the time they are 50. Big Pharma is going to make a fortune. Our health care systems aren't prepared for it. When the long term effects of ARVs start to kick in, it's going to be a mess.

Our HIV service organizations are being starved of money. The last "new and hot" pro condom poster produced by my locale ASO is over ten years old. Their donors expect and demand condom only safer sex messaging. "Condoms, condoms, condoms" is an old message that everyone immediately dismisses, or at least tunes out these days. Maybe if they started screaming "Testing, Testing, Testing" with a small side order of condoms, it would be something different, and might actually be heard. Most of the ASOs are not comfortable even discussing PrEP, or actively fight against it.

But even if the young guys heard the "testing" message, bureaucracy stands in the way of them actually getting tested. You can't get home testing kits here because the government thinks that without pre & post test counselling they will do more harm than good. The STI clinic has no evening hours. Their bathhouse testing is from 5:00 to 6:30 PM on Fridays.

I agree with you that I think it is sad when someone thinks being poz will set them free. And agree that more needs to be done, but IMO it needs to be a complete overhaul, much like what i said before. Some of what you said is specific to canada, so I cant really address those items, but I can say what I have experienced here in the US.

The testing message is a good one because it needs to happen. You cant treat anything you dont know about, which is why like I said before I think mandatory testing should be done. Also I think PrEP should be an option for anyone who wants it. I think its so silly that in places like the US you can get HIV treatment often for free, but you cant see a doctor or get PrEP without jumping through hoops or using assistance programs from the maker.

Quite franking in terms of condoms, I think they should be there, I think a basic message about using them is a good idea, and thats about it. IMO people will use them at about the same rate they do now.

At least the message is honest. Bare is better. I'm fine promoting "safe sex" -- I did serious volunteer work in that field for years -- but not lying. If we limit ourselves to telling people that there are potential health benefits, they might choose to use condoms part of the time. If, on the other hand, we pretend that using condoms feels just as good, people will stop using them the moment they've had the epiphany of that first bareback fuck. Realizing that we lied to them, people will then tune out anything worthwhile we might have to say about sexual health.

You're ignoring many levels of psychology. (Still, I trust that you are sincere, in the same way that I honestly believe that Nancy Reagan thought that preventing drug abuse was as simple as telling people to "say no". I don't see her as simple-minded or negligent, in the way that others do.)

- Intimacy plays a big role. In relating to other people, do we feel better when we say or hear "no", or "yes"?

This makes me sad, and it makes me ashamed on behalf of uninformed Neg guys. I have never treated Poz guys this way, and I often confront Neg guys who say stupid things like "Neg and clean only". They're not fun to play with. My thought experiments for them:

- What if you fell in love with a Poz guy? Does your heart know his HIV status? Love is supposed to be deeper than that, right?

- What if you were physically attracted to a Poz guy? Does your dick know his HIV status? Sexual attraction is supposed to be instinctive, right?

You need to meet the right men. As a Neg guy on PrEP, I'm glad to be able to play freely with Poz guys. Poz guys get extra points from me, since in many cases -- and without romanticizing HIV at all -- a person's becoming Poz is evidence of an active, uninhibited, pleasurable sex life.

I agree with this 100%. A while back i was dating a guy who was poz/undetectable, and one day we were having a conversation about sex. I told him what I like, and how I was overall more mild that wild in the bedroom,and wasnt really into anything that kinky. He then replied to me, "yeah but you like cum in your ass!?" I found this really interesting because he also liked cum in his ass, and we had conversations before about sex, and that he also wasnt really into anything that freaky. Since like you I am also on PrEP, I didnt care about his status, and enjoyed the sex.

And this is where I think there is a disconnect both on personal levels, and with health workers. It is natural to want to be close to your partner. Its a great feeling both as a top and bottom being with a guy without barriers. Additionally as others have stated, its not just gay men, most people dont like condoms. And I would imagine that for most gay men its simply the intimacy they desire which leads them to practice condomless sex.

I also used to do outreach work, and all of the people in the center where I worked had stories in their own lives about not practicing sex with condoms, neg or poz it didnt matter, and these were the guys preaching it.

I really think its just time that we are all honest with ourselves about what we do. For many guys like myself, its not about "barebacking, chasing, breeding, etc" Its just about close intimacy with a sex partner. Personally I hate all the buzz words around it because I think it stereotypes condomless sex to more than what it is.

I remember a scene in boogie nights where mark wahlberg is fucking julianne moore for the first time, and its so good that she whispers to him, "cum in me!" She didnt say "breed me!, give me that raw load, yeah bareback my ass", etc, etc. She just wanted to closeness that comes with sex without barriers, and IMO thats what most gay men want, not the fetishised view of what condomless sex is for gay men.

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

A series of outstanding posts here. So where do we go from here?

My employer has an LGBTA Employee Resource Group but I have not yet successfully conveyed my message to promote PrEP. Have tried, and have not given up, but ... I am part of a monthly fuck/social group and I wrote a newsletter article for it I titled "PrEP School". When I was on the array of hookup sites/aps I promoted PrEP with some interesting/abusive replies.

Maybe I need some PrEP literature and T that brings up the topic at Milwaukee Pride Fest weekend?

Collectively we need to get our message out. And TasP and PrEP needs to be part of that.

POZ1956 to the ED issues, have you looked into trimix? Have it myself, and is reasonably effective.

[Bttm2go]

I once was a safe sexer too. Then I started taking it raw and it felt so good I never used a condom again. It's the natural way to get fucked. It also keeps the flow going. No more stopping to put the rubber on.

[Poz1956]

Yes, humans like all animals are born with the desire to breed or be bred. While I still sometimes have non-raw sex (tired of calling it safesex) it always and has always felt like something was missing, but when I cum in a guy or have him cum in me then I feel great and know I am doing what I was designed to do.

I agree that the top has the need to breed and use his sex organs as designed. It's hard wired into us. I've also seen it described keying into the animal, wanting to mark his territory.

I'm not quite sure the pure bottom has that same genetically coded need to be bred. Perhaps he does somehow get in touch with the primeval lizard brain, and connect with the female need to be bred. And maybe whatever the connection, it's part of what makes us Gay. I'm going to have to think about if our asses were genetically programmed to be a sex organ. Internally it's more about stimulating other organs that are in close proximity. There is no doubt that, at least externally, it has a wealth of enjoyable sensations.

Personally I don't think a bottom draws on that deep dark level of the brain. My gut says it's about attraction to the dominant male -- the leader of the pack, and the need to be a member of a tribe (even if the tribe consists of just two people at that moment). In our close simian relatives the pecking order for their troupe is often reinforced by the more dominant male dry humping a lower ranking male. To my knowledge they don't actually enter the other. It's more like frontage. And maybe that's where Darwinian biology led to many pleasurable nerve endings around the butt. It creates a reward for the lower rank member of the tribe submitting to the higher positioned dominance over him. In troupes of Bonobo monkeys (our closest genetic relatives), this happens a large number of times a day. Heck they hump as greetings, to resolve conflicts, to release stress, because a leaf fell from a tree, and just about any reason you can think of. (I'm imagining the cum dumps squirming in their seats while pondering about that.)

That's well above the lizard brain Need to Breed, but still deep in the subconscious. A need to belong, and a need to be needed. At the endocrine level there's a flood of addictive dopamine and endorphin during sex. Bonding and love fall in there too, on a subconscious plane. And of course the top layer of learned responses, conscious thought, and curiosity to explore new sensations or experiences. Sex is one of our most complicated behaviours. We are complex beasts!

By no means do I consider the above animistic urges as justification for old guard leather total ownership of a slave, or the "tops are supreme, and bottoms are just holes to be used for a top's pleasure" attitude I see spoken of so often here. To each their own kink. For me sex is about two equals, both striving for their own, and their partner's pleasure. Even in role play, the goal is the same, because there is consensual choice in accepting the position and play.