The legacy of sexual shaming

[scotty2]

I am not sure if this is the right place for this thread but I as I reach my mid forties I have become conscious of just how damaged by sexual shaming I have been. I am curious to discuss this with other guys. I express my desires most freely by writing fiction and my characters do what I am often inhibited to discuss. I remember as a child being told not to stare at men, and boy did I used to love doing that, but now I get really embarrassed if a guy catches me looking. I stay silent when my straight friends talk about big breasted women when I could easily say I like a big cock up my arse myself and it probably would not shock anyone but me. I cringe if I discuss sex with others, including my life partner. I have found it hard to discuss sex with other sexual partners to, usually just hoping guys will someone guess what I am into. I have a legacy of hating my body, feeling I am flabby and overweight even though I diet all the time and run everyday and am in my forties. How the hell did I get like this? I was at World Pride today and noticed how at ease guys were, dressed up in leather etc. I find it hard to express myself sexually. I am out to everyone but cannot say who I fancy to my friends or family. Does any of this strike a cord or is it just me?

[rawTOP]

This is a really great topic. Thanks for starting it. I've stickied the thread to encourage discussion... Gay men have SO many hangups when it comes to sex and their bodies. It's part of the reason why I think this site is important - to let guys discuss and process their inhibitions.

For me, when I was growing up I felt like I lived in a shell. My family was fundamentalist christian so discussing topics of sex was pretty much forbidden (unless the "Brother Falwell" was telling the congregation how awful homosexuals were). Talking to other people about my feelings just wasn't an option. When I came out the 1st person I told I was gay (still a friend today) told me to get into a gay mens therapy group at the University. I went and I remember sitting in the room the first semester unable to put my emotions and feelings into words. I literally didn't have the vocabulary. It was the beginning of a process where I faced my feels and learned to process them in a meaningful way.

The social structure of shame that I was taught as kid actually started to fall away before I came out. A college roommate made the comment to me, "when I look into the stars the god I see is bigger than the god of the bible" (he was an astronomy major). Growing up I was told man was made in god's image, but what I realized was man had made god in man's image. It was a radical thought and hit at the core of my belief system. I was on the board of one of my Universities well-known christian organizations, but within a few months of that conversation I had resigned from the board and rejected christianity. (It wasn't a good semester for the organization - the same semester the president resigned and became a black muslim). A few months after that I was told (wrongly) that I had a brain tumor, which made me further examine my life. And then about a year after the conversation with that roommate I came out as gay.

Because shame had played such a major role in my fundamentalist upbringing (church 3 times a week plus I went to a hardcore Calvinist Baptist school), when I rejected christianity I started looking at how it managed to control me in the past. I saw that shame and fear were major tools in their arsenal. That made me hate shame and fear - even to this day I just don't tolerate it. When I see it I confront it.

So my experience isn't exactly like yours but I get where you're coming from. One thing that might help is actively being more selfish. Have you read "The Foutainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? They're seminal works that have shaped the world we lived in (Alan Greenspan was one of the people who would come over to her apartment every week to hear her read her latest chapter of "Atlas Shrugged"). She is the most eloquent spokesperson for selfishness. But if you find yourself going full-steam ahead with her philosophy read the biography of her which shows the flaws in her way of life (no room for children, etc.) The point is - if you're more selfish, you have the ability to stand up for yourself and confront people who would want to use shame to put you in your place.

[scotty2]

I'll look up those books. I do need to be more selfish. I would also like to be more uninhibited. I'd like to be able to say to people, gay, straight, related or unrelated, "you see that guy there, I really fancy him." When I was 6 I used to copy my mum and sister saying it and my brother used pouting lips and a limp wrist to shame me. I used to gaze longingly into men's faces. Now I can't even start a conversation. I remember a Scottish friend of mine, a Christian but a High Church liberal one, and he used to say things like "I had the most GLORIOUS wank this afternoon." I am ashamed if my life partner catches me wanking. I am reading Coming Out of Shame at the moment, hence the motivation to start this thread.

[cumlatrine]

Sorry, but this shame thing in guys has always been one of my fetishes. I have often seen and felt it in guys. When I was still playing football, the locker room! How the guys behave there! Some even wash in underwear! I always washed my cock and ass extensively as if I was playing with them. All the guys watched the other side.

The other side, sexually utterly shameless guys, is a fetish as well. I fav total shamelessness.

But I know. I was raised catholic myself though I never believed. I always saw it as folklore.

I also think if guys would communicate more about sex and their sexual feelings and feel less shame, a few superfluous problems could get solved. Think about doctor's visit where guys say half the true. As long as doctors can go judgemental about guys (and I can guarantee you they do), a few problems will not be solved. I think doctors should especially learn sexual anamnesis of male patients. The first question a doctor should have to ask, would be: How is your cock? Cock is a very good "thermometer" and should be at the center of male care. The huge number of gynaecoclgists and almost no andrologists (only urologists) even if women give birth and even if men see doctor less (they perhaps would see him more when a male climate aiming at the sexual activity of shameless raised guys was created in medicine), is a sign there is something quite abnormal in man care and approach.

Edited July 8, 2012 by cumlatrine

[einathens]

i would draw a distinction between selfish and self-aware. selfish, you think you're the only one. self-aware, you know you're one of many.

i'm 46. our culture now is not like it was when my generation's self-images were forming. if gays were present at all, they were either villians, effeminate nancies in silk robes, self-loathing neurotics, or paul lynde in the center square.

my main problem with ayn rand (other than that she didn't know the difference between a balanced line of prose and a shit-and-anchovy pizza) is that her writing leaves no room for wonder, awe, mystery or faith. plus her punchlines suck.

[Hotload84]

Like you, Einathens, I need "...wonder, awe, mystery or faith" in my world, notwithstanding, or perhaps because so much life is measuring - time, resources, results. Shame is out there, of course, but more simply born of taking taking the easy way out, where my sense of morality demands I take the high road.

Ayn Rand certainly had good plot lines, and some of her arguments were worthwhile, but if I was looking for a writer who found the correct balance between selfish and self-aware, I would look at Taylor Caldwell. Her protagonists embraced the fullness of the human condition: flawed, yet striving to better themselves. In this I would find my own aspiration.

[Belfast-Bottom]

Several of the previous posters have referred to the role which religion plays in cultivating sexual guilt and shame "when I rejected christianity I started looking at how it managed to control me in the past. I saw that shame and fear were major tools in their arsenal". Sexual guilt and shame are the legacy of the montheistic religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam. While most other cultures had sexual taboos, pre monotheistic Eurasia had a long history of sexual tolerance and diversity. Sexuality was celebrated by many gods and cults. There was an acceptance of homosexuality and intersex/trans people. Temple prostitution was a frequent occurrence. There is abundant evidence of phallic worship. Sexuality was seen as something to be celebrated and a route to enlightenment/religious experience.

Religion was invented by primitive people to explain away the terrors which nature threw at them and to assuage their fear of death. Sensible people leave fairy tales in the nursery where they belong and get on with living. The world is full of people who have been wounded in their sexuality and psychologically traumatised by their religious upbringing.

[scotty2]

I feel that is it considered generally acceptable, politically at least to be gay, but to not actually do anything like suck cock or fancy men, other than have a nice sexless husband.

[cumlatrine]

Several of the previous posters have referred to the role which religion plays in cultivating sexual guilt and shame "when I rejected christianity I started looking at how it managed to control me in the past. I saw that shame and fear were major tools in their arsenal". Sexual guilt and shame are the legacy of the montheistic religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam. While most other cultures had sexual taboos, pre monotheistic Eurasia had a long history of sexual tolerance and diversity. Sexuality was celebrated by many gods and cults. There was an acceptance of homosexuality and intersex/trans people. Temple prostitution was a frequent occurrence. There is abundant evidence of phallic worship. Sexuality was seen as something to be celebrated and a route to enlightenment/religious experience.

Religion was invented by primitive people to explain away the terrors which nature threw at them and to assuage their fear of death. Sensible people leave fairy tales in the nursery where they belong and get on with living. The world is full of people who have been wounded in their sexuality and psychologically traumatised by their religious upbringing.

I couldn't agree more.

"....Male prostitution (directed toward other males), for instance, was so common that the taxes on it constituted a major source of revenue for the imperial treasury...".

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/women1/a/aa011500a.htm

This historical fact stongly questions the conception of gay sex as a minority sexuality.

Moreover you cann't find any good reason whatsoever pleading against M2M love. On the contrary. Nature is full of it all over the place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

[thomas12]

Belfast-Bottom, yes it's safe to say (although if you want to play fair, there's no proof either way) that religion was crafted mostly by men. But we do believe Jesus was a real person. And yeah, some of the stories of Jesus we can prove were doctored. But that doesn't mean we should assume it's all out the window. Jesus didn't hate homosexuals. I really wish people, even an atheist (is that a correct assumption?) such as yourself should take emotion out of it and see a strong difference. I can understand people's hatred for religion. I was raised in the south, was told over and over again that God hates fags. As over-dramatic as this sounds, I would cry after jerking off cause I thought I had failed God (it's okay if that made you laugh). I was suicidal the moment I realized I was given this "disease." Today I am still a strongly practicing Catholic. I stand in protest against many of their practices and I'm out. I don't believe God gives a shit who fucks who. Believing in a God is totally sensible. Being the direct opposite, such as many atheists are when they attack, is no different than Christian fundamentalism. Sexual shaming didn't come from a deity (as you would argue they don't exist). I however, argue that it's a concept created for political reasons and for insecurities. Most people in power who changed the Bible KNEW it was doctored over the years, cause they were making the conscious choice to do so (one of which was a closeted King James). So I'd argue the people changing it knew they had a book of power about "fairy tales" to control people, but just like corporate greed, Jesus and Buddha, etc. had real messages that inspired and people took it and corrupted it.

I hope that doesn't sound like bashing. Cause I have many atheist friends. But I sometimes have to calm them and remind them that we need to stop blaming it all on God, same as Republicans vs. Democrats. Religious nut-wings didn't invent the atom bomb that killed millions, nor were the psychologists who diagnosed homosexuality as a mental illness known for being religious. We all fucked up and let this happen. It was slid under the rug. It took a generation to say "fuck you" and many of them suffered, but they inspired the next generation and so forth. I bet many gay people my age or younger wouldn't even realize that they can live somewhat more comfortably because of the sacrifices of others.

So I also don't look at homosexuality as just fun fucking (not saying you did either, this is just in overall). Same as barebacking. Like with homosexuality, we now have another social deviance we have to go through, where even the gay community sees it as an embarrassment. It's seen as a fetish, I believe, or even some have argued that it's a psychological disorder (not a consensus by the APA, just so we're clear). Why have I resisted my sexuality cause I am drawn to this entire lifestyle? Maybe we are fucked up, whatever.

I did receive news that I have a terminal illness and that greatly affected my life. A deadly form of cancer. What's funny is that when I got the diagnosis I was already in the deepest forms of depression about my "sexually deviant" views. I didn't care if I got hit by a car. Then I got news about cancer. So I thought, "I really am fucked., might as well fuck as many raw holes as possible." But it didn't feel right. I actually am healthy and clear for the time being (it'll take a few years to know for sure), but it changed my life. Now I look at this and I don't just fuck anyone (my choice), and the bareback sex I've had, all of them have been mind-blowing experiences I haven't forgotten. And I like to play dirty. I don't have all the answers yes but this is what I find fulfilling. Again, I have different views on barebacking, but that's besides the point. I feel this has meaning, and yeah one is I love love love raw sex and the freeing nature of it. And I just don't care if no one will understand it. They're not the ones going through it. I realize if I get HIV, it's going to be hard to tell my family and friends. Maybe I won't tell them. I'd rather live a shit ton of life than die old and bored. But I also hope I do more than just fucking. Like how some people aren't built to have children, some are built to find emotional fulfillment in other ways, like this, instead of a relationship.

I do hope support continues here. I know it's not "hot" to talk about it, but let's not forget that we were (or are) there too and right now no one is really helping us so we have to help ourselves. I appreciate the creators of the board for doing this.

[Belfast-Bottom]

That was a moving piece of writing Thomas.

I didn't detect any hostility directed at me or other atheists. I was raised a believer too. It's fairly easy to prove that people invented religion. We have the texts and the archaeological evidence. I could expand on that, but I don't want to risk boring readers. There is a debate about whether Jesus actually existed. The only evidence for his existence comes from the New Testament itself. He does fit into an established pattern of resurrecting man/gods which had been current in that area for centuries. He wasn't the first. Even if we assume that he was a great teacher and an aspect of Yahweh, do you really believe the Catholic church is a force for GOOD in the world? As someone who has lived in Ireland for almost all of my life, I can't say that it is. The over population resulting from it's birth control stance is one of the greatest threats to our planet. That's before we get into the "sex is sinful" teaching. MILLIONS of people have been wounded in their sexuality.

Religion provides an emotional crutch for those who fear death, or are dealing with bereavement. It offers hope to many, but it has caused so much death, war and misery in the world.

You have my very best wishes. I mean that sincerely.

[thomas12]

Belfast - No worries and awesome that you wrote back. I agree, it's a lil off-topic, but my point is that it's still debatable. It depends on what you believe. I just wanted to point out to the original poster and others that it's possible for gay guys to believe in Jesus, Buddha, Pan, Zeus, etc. Jesus gets a lot of psycho followers. I don't think Jesus hates gay people or people who love taboo sex. I just wanted to make the distinction between RELIGION and FAITH. Many people with faith are great humans. I'm sure you do, but I hope you can at least respect people who do believe in a god/gods. Organized religion has become a problem, that I will agree.

I have yet to really find in-depth conversation on why some of us prefer bb'ing. Like I said, it was a heavy-hearted issue denying something that you felt is a part of you. I don't think some of us bareback just because "it's hot." Would love to know why. I have a couple bareback top friends (we're all total tops so we have no sexual attraction, just mutual admiration) and I feel more myself around them than anyone else. Mainly also cause it was cool knowing that BBers could also pass as regular guys in the streets. Whether we are suffering from mental illness, a genetic trait or whatever, it would be good to know.

For the original poster and many other BBers, hopefully they find confidence in themselves.

[Inception]

snip

One thing that might help is actively being more selfish. Have you read "The Foutainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? They're seminal works that have shaped the world we lived in (Alan Greenspan was one of the people who would come over to her apartment every week to hear her read her latest chapter of "Atlas Shrugged"). She is the most eloquent spokesperson for selfishness. But if you find yourself going full-steam ahead with her philosophy read the biography of her

snip

Yep, she was a complete psycopath, as is her disciple Greenspan, who shaped the world we live in - where profit and greed are put before social justice and basic human rights. Chris Hedges recent book Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt gives a great overview of where this despicable philosophy has gotten our world.

http://www.amazon.com/Days-Destruction-Revolt-Chris-Hedges/dp/1568586434/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349237037&sr=1-1&keywords=days+of+destruction+days+of+revolt

Edited October 3, 2012 by Inception
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