Viral Level Question

[Guest TravelGuy4Bareback]

When a HIV+ person goes off their meds, how quick does their viral level go up? If they were undetectable, how long before they are no longer undetectable? I am talking to a guy who says he goes off his meds for a few days before he fucks guys at adult stores so he is no longer undetectable. I just wonder if the viral levels jump that high in just 1 or 2 days.

[Guest Matias47]

There's no way of knowing unless you test. However, the chances of the VL raising to passable levels is not that great. What he IS doing is begging for his meds to fail. Not judging, just sayin'.

[PhoenixGeoff]

It varies depending on the circumstances. If he's high on something that suppresses the immune system (as many drugs and alcohol will) when he does it, chances of a spike are much likelier. Matias is correct that he's almost certainly ensuring that his meds will stop working for him.

And here's where I will judge, even though Matias is far more polite and well-mannered than I am.

This guy is incredibly stupid. Finding effective HIV meds with tolerable side effects is not a trivial problem. When you find a cocktail that both works and works for you, you want to do everything in your power to make sure it keeps working effectively. Which means adhering rigorously to taking your meds as prescribed (as well as all of the other good practices that support your health and immune system like diet, exercise, sleep, etc.) For example, I've been on my current cocktail for about 8 years now and still going strong. There's no reason not to think I won't be able to continue on it indefinitely, which is a good thing because the side effects I deal with are minimal.

But more than stupid, this guy is incredibly evil. And I say that as someone who thoroughly enjoys bareback sex and willingly chanced HIV to engage in it (and lost, obviously). I've got absolutely no problem with barebacking with other poz guys. I've got no problem with barebacking with neg guys (or those who are unaware of their status) who know mine; that's their choice and responsibility. I can even see an argument for not necessarily disclosing to other gay guys in a context where they're obviously barebacking indiscriminately, like in a bathhouse.

I've got serious problems where someone is hitting a place where he's likely to run into guys who are uneducated and perhaps deeply closeted (like Wichita, KS) who might even have unsuspecting wives, and then taking additional steps to increase the odds of infecting them without disclosure. Quite apart from the criminal consequences of his actions (which will be incredibly serious, and rightfully so), it's guys like him that not only hand ammunition to be used against the gay community by conservatives, but who also encourage people to treat HIV+ guys like me as pariahs.

Seriously, the guy needs a swift punch to the head. And if you have any evidence at all that he's actually engaging in this kind of behavior (as opposed to simply fantasizing on the Internet), I'd actually suggest that you have an obligation to report him to his local health department.

[GermanFucker]

A lot depends on how one's health was before one first started meds. As long as you don't do therapy, the virus will build more and more reservoirs in your body, which will become active again once you go off meds. Be cautious, especially if you had AIDS before.

1 or 2 days sounds too short, 1 or 2 weeks sounds more realistic, at least according to:

http://www.pnas.org/content/96/26/15109.full.pdf

Other than that, Matias47 makes sense: IMHO a stupid strategy on so many levels.

And here's where I will judge, even though Matias is far more polite and well-mannered than I am.

But more than stupid, this guy is incredibly evil. And I say that as someone who thoroughly enjoys bareback sex and willingly chanced HIV to engage in it (and lost, obviously). I've got absolutely no problem with barebacking with other poz guys. I've got no problem with barebacking with neg guys (or those who are unaware of their status) who know mine; that's their choice and responsibility. I can even see an argument for not necessarily disclosing to other gay guys in a context where they're obviously barebacking indiscriminately, like in a bathhouse.

I've got serious problems where someone is hitting a place where he's likely to run into guys who are uneducated and perhaps deeply closeted (like Wichita, KS) who might even have unsuspecting wives, and then taking additional steps to increase the odds of infecting them without disclosure. Quite apart from the criminal consequences of his actions (which will be incredibly serious, and rightfully so), it's guys like him that not only hand ammunition to be used against the gay community by conservatives, but who also encourage people to treat HIV+ guys like me as pariahs.

I wholeheartedly agree. Not because I'm a prude, but because I enjoy barebacking so very much and want to keep doing it for the next 40 years without fear or shame.

Edited November 21, 2012 by GermanFucker

[Guest Matias47]

Yeah, I was polite. Just got a nice BJ.

To go on to another point by MMM, here's a bit of Kansas State Law:

"It is unlawful for an individual who knows oneself to be infected with a life threatening communicable diseases knowingly to engage in sexual intercourse or sodomy with another individual with the intent to expose that individual to that life threatening communicable disease."

Obviously, deliberately going off meds prior to engaging in anonymous sex shows the requisite intent. So the guy risks prison as well.

And to MascMountainMan: I swear to God, every time I read one of your longer, well-reasoned and literate posts -- I just want your cock up my ass.

[bbzh]

Back down Matias47. MascMountainMan is my husband in my head. I will cut a bitch.

[PhoenixGeoff]

I have a delivery in Long Beach next week. Just sayin'

And thank you both for being so very kind

[thick]

i get yelled at by friends, my doctor, etc. for my lax pill taking habits. I take my meds on average of about every 3-4 days. Sometimes I forget to take them for a week! Im still undetectible......

I think it depends on the viral form you have, your body's ability to fight it and your health as to what your viral load will do if you are not taking meds.

[thick]

I forgot to add. Ive been on the same cocktail for like 6 years. using them the same erratic way. and the viral load has never been over say 50. so it depends on your body.

[HardaddyMA]

I hate to add a voice of irresponsibility to this thread on a site devoted to bug-chasing, but I have been goin off and back on my meds for the past several years, and the first 2 'med vacations' were actually under my doctor's supervision... I was off my meds for 18 months at one point and my CD4 never got below 250 and my viral load was well over 750,000. I have gone off my meds for one or 2 weeks at a time at least three times to make sure that when I fucked (willing and eager for IT) neg bottoms who seriously wanted my virus I "would get the job done"! And after 10 days off my meds I was successfully able to infect AT LEAST 2 of the 4 I played with.

I am convinced that even today, the meds they are giving us are still way too potent, especially when ur taking 3-4 drug combos. I have often skipped days taking my meds since they ALWAYS upset my stomach and as long as I take my meds faithfully for like 3 weeks before my bloodwork is drawn, I have been undetectable for the past 6 years.

I should add that I was most likely hiv-POZ for about 13 years before I was diagnosed, and the worst thing that I ever experienced was a case of shingles. I have NEVER had a CD4 lower than 235 which is where I was when I started taking meds 15 years ago.

AND I would not be suprised if for a lot of us long-term POZ guys who stay healthy, maybe we have a fantasy of someday being infected with a superstrain of AIDS and then we dont have to worry about takin our meds and we will know for sure that our seed is truly deadly.....

Different strokes for different folks... sorry for all who are offended...