Is Prep In France Being Promoted At All?

[rawfuckr]

Met this super cute guy at the beach in Spain today, he was from France. We got back to the room and condoms were requested      This is one of the cases where I'm not going to fight it so we went ahead .. 

I was surprised that someone from France where PrEP has been available all this year would be so insisting on condoms still. Is it that PrEP is still a very much unknown intervention by the gay folks? Is there any promotion going on at all to get people to use it? Some feedback from french people would be great!

[Guest kazore]

i guess it like in the US, first months were very slow. There is no massive ad campaigns like in the US on subways and buses of big cities.

[paris_student]

I'm from France and on PrEP.

It's basically hit and miss. It's true that we have PrEP, but only since November for the initial authorization, and the first doctor's appointments were being taken in late december/January 2016. New PrEP centers are sprouting all around the country, but unfortunately it's only been... 7 months (!!).

 

I guess another reason one may find condom nazis just like in your case is because we've been so brainwashed and frightened for so many years that often people just adopt this "condom-or-nothing" approach. 

 

Despite my young age and okay body I'm having trouble finding BB tops here in Paris just because of how scared people are of STDs. And that's knowing that as a bottom I'm WAAAAYYY more lunkely to contract and STD.

 

Then there's a lot of slut-shaming going around, because we're being called gay truvada whores (by other gays mostly who still think condoms are the only solution to fight AIDS...) and also by straight people who don't want to pay their tax money to sustain our "decadent" lifestyle (PrEP is fully reimbursed here through Social Security).

 

So... yeah, it's tough if you accidentally meet a Frenchman. However hung/hot/sexy/muscled the guy is, if he doesn't fuck bare and if his brain is polluted with stupid rubish from 20 years ago, there's not much I can do, and that's a huge turn-off for me anyway.

Edited July 21, 2016 by paris_student

[rawfuckr]

I'm from France and on PrEP.

It's basically hit and miss. It's true that we have PrEP, but only since November for the initial authorization, and the first doctor's appointments were being taken in late december/January 2016. New PrEP centers are sprouting all around the country, but unfortunately it's only been... 7 months (!!).

 

I guess another reason one may find condom nazis just like in your case is because we've been so brainwashed and frightened for so many years that often people just adopt this "condom-or-nothing" approach. 

 

Despite my young age and okay body I'm having trouble finding BB tops here in Paris just because of how scared people are of STDs. And that's knowing that as a bottom I'm WAAAAYYY more lunkely to contract and STD.

 

Then there's a lot of slut-shaming going around, because we're being called gay truvada whores (by other gays mostly who still think condoms are the only solution to fight AIDS...) and also by straight people who don't want to pay their tax money to sustain our "decadent" lifestyle (PrEP is fully reimbursed here through Social Security).

 

So... yeah, it's tough if you accidentally meet a Frenchman. However hung/hot/sexy/muscled the guy is, if he doesn't fuck bare and if his brain is polluted with stupid rubish from 20 years ago, there's not much I can do, and that's a huge turn-off for me anyway.

 

Thank you for your perspective. I really hope there's some sort of campaign to promote PrEP in France. It sounds very similar like when I went on PrEP back in 2012 in USA and I had to fight stigma and slut shaming through and through in the USA. It's 2016 now, and it's hard to find anyone who will not drop the condoms in a heartbeat. In a way, seems condom usage has essentially disappeared in San Francisco. Those requesting them are very much a dwindling minority. 

 

In Spain, even without PrEP it's so easy to make people drop their condoms.. most of the time you don't have to say anything and condoms are not used or you just say that "I am clean" that I am.... However this french man I met, it was the kind of guy who kept checking the condom was in place while I was fucking him, which I find extremely annoying. To be fair, I did not disclose my PrEP taking status, because it's always a super awkward conversation, specially with people that don't know about it... but I had met previously frenchmen who took it bare, so somehow I expected the same. 

It's going to be interesting what route does PrEP take in France. We really need it to take off there. It's the only place in Europe where you can get PrEP. In the USA most gay men were begging for something like PrEP due to condom fatigue mostly and now with over 80000 people on it and rising, it's becoming more normal every day. From what you say, French gay men may think this is something they don't need which could totally hamper the uptake of it.

 

 

Then there's a lot of slut-shaming going around, because we're being called gay truvada whores (by other gays mostly who still think condoms are the only solution to fight AIDS...) and also by straight people who don't want to pay their tax money to sustain our "decadent" lifestyle (PrEP is fully reimbursed here through Social Security).

 

 

Forgot to talk on this. Seems wherever PrEP is starting getting discussed there's a group of people ready to slut shame PrEP users. If the USA is an example for the rest of the world, which I hope it is, all these slut shamers got their voice shuttered and buried with a bit of time after virtually everyone "saw the light" with PrEP: A close to 100% effective HIV prevention tool, close to no side effects, and no rubbers needed..... USA Took a couple of years for conversation to be over 2013-2015. 

[NLbear]

I hope PrEP takes off in France and sets an example for the rest of Europe. In Holland they are trying to reinvent the wheel by doing tests on a selected number of users in the Amsterdam area only. Despite the tests done in the USA (and France) and the results over there.

 

As for slut shaming I expect the same attitude in NL. People who say PrEP is a free ticket to have unprotected sex all paid for by the tax payer. A sort of "do what you like but don't expect me to pay for it" (through taxes). Also I would expect not all health insurance companies will cover the costs (same reactions from other clients from that insurance company as they expect premiums to rise for all clients). Health Insurance has been privatised here a number of years ago where it was provided to all by the state previously. The privatisation has been a total disaster. Costs of health care have skyrocketed and a lot of not so well-off people have problems paying the premium. It is mandatory to have insurance but people have stopped going to their doctor (which is covered in the basic premium) out of fear they are being directed to a specialist, which is not always covered.

 

Good luck and let us know how it proceeds in France?

[rawfuckr]

I hope PrEP takes off in France and sets an example for the rest of Europe. In Holland they are trying to reinvent the wheel by doing tests on a selected number of users in the Amsterdam area only. Despite the tests done in the USA (and France) and the results over there.

 

As for slut shaming I expect the same attitude in NL. People who say PrEP is a free ticket to have unprotected sex all paid for by the tax payer. A sort of "do what you like but don't expect me to pay for it" (through taxes). Also I would expect not all health insurance companies will cover the costs (same reactions from other clients from that insurance company as they expect premiums to rise for all clients). Health Insurance has been privatised here a number of years ago where it was provided to all by the state previously. The privatisation has been a total disaster. Costs of health care have skyrocketed and a lot of not so well-off people have problems paying the premium. It is mandatory to have insurance but people have stopped going to their doctor (which is covered in the basic premium) out of fear they are being directed to a specialist, which is not always covered.

 

Good luck and let us know how it proceeds in France?

 

My assumption is that most of Europe is hanging in there for the appearance of Truvada generics. We should start seeing generics end of 2017, beginning of 2018 but they won't be much cheaper than Gilead's Truvada right off. ( Fantastic article on Truvada generic availability here http://www.ethantheblog.info/?p=50 )

 

I think the arguments for those people who slut shame and complain that 'the system' shouldn't pay for PrEP is:

• We pay for cholesterol drugs for those who have poor eating habits. Many costs to the HC system come from people who have poor lifestyle, yet we don't deny them care.
• PrEP, specially when generics arrive, will actually save money long run because it will stop people from seroconverting, which is a lot more expensive. A lifetime of daily super expensive drugs.
• Yes, PrEP makes everyone become a bareback whore. So what. Let's be real, the only reason why condoms were introduced were to stop HIV. PrEP stops HIV better than condoms.
• There are other STDs!! There are. Which you can get through oral sex, kissing, eating ass... condom usage during anal intercourse just stops some STDs during anal intercourse. Doesn't magically protect you from everything else. PrEP just alters the odds of getting others STD slightly, but neither condoms nor PrEP avoid you from getting them. Only abstinence does.

   

Feel free to add your own pro PrEP arguments. I guarantee you you'll need them over and over anywhere PrEP is introduced. It's the same drill in every place this conversation gets started.

[paris_student]

Hello again ! Glad my post got some reactions, we need more people to know about this !!

 

A few thoughts: 

 

I think that the US is overall a more progressive country than even any country in Europe (maybe except for the Bible Belt and Rust Belt), but overall it is the case. France, on the other hand is VERY conservative, and what amazes me most is that even gays themselves are becoming more and more conservative. A few years ago a sex-club in Paris was forced to shut down and file for bankruptcy because the owners planned on organizing bareback parties. How crazy is that ? The HIV prevention groups and campaigns have been doing their job wrong for YEARS, with lame inefficient advertisements emphasizing the need to wear condoms, and completely discarding the issue of condom fatigue. As for straight people, each time I read the comment section of an article about PrEP (not that there are that many articles about this in the first place), it is FILLED with straight men (who probably also have sex with men) telling us to "just wear a condom". It's apalling and preposterous.

 

So what do we have instead ? Well, we have sex-clubs and places everyone knows are filled with barebackers but they're not officially promoted as such, in fact by the law they are obliged to have free condoms and lube available for anyone, but the condoms are rarely tapped into. It's a kind of a Harry Potter-esque bipolar world where you know Voldemort is wandering around somewhere, but under no circumstance are you allowed to say his name. I get routinely insulted on sex-apps and gay websites by very ignorant people who say that I will contract HIV and that I deserve to die from AIDS. It baffles me that in the age of the Internet there are men who don't know what PrEP is... and all the info is just a few clicks away !! 

 

I was kinf of hoping for the UK to "jump on the PrEP train" but unfortunately the NHS said "No". I really thought that they had potential to push the PrEP issue in Europe. However, one good thing that happened in the last few days in Truvada being recommended for HIV prophylaxy in Europe by the EMA (European Medicine's Agency). More about this here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/866524

 

In France everything is very shaky, the Social Security system itself has been in debt for decades, in fact when I go to my PrEP meetings the doctors insist heavily on me getting my Truvada from the Hospital Pharmacy instead of a normal private pharmacy in town, because although I don't pay I cent for the pills the State pays 10% less for them (which is around €50 by box) in the first scenario, for some twisted reason. That's how bad the situation is, because every Euro counts. I was hoping for the generics to come by January 2017 and somehow lower the burden, but now it seems that they're going to be introduced even later (possibly 2018).

 

I have two other arguments in favor of PrEP:

• I live in the real world, I drive a car (with the risk of having an accident), I go out to buy my groceries (with the risk of being shot or run over by a car or kidnapped), and it's the same thing for my sex life. I don't live in a cave or in a monastery, nor am I a hermit. I am a man, which means that I have instincts that need to be fulfilled, and sex is a very healthy part of any human life. Therefore I am allowed to ask for protection, because abstinence is just not the solution.
• The same argument was used back in the day for the pill. People were saying that it's ridiculous, that it will completely liberate women and change the way our civilization works, that all women will become worthles w***es that will be spreading their legs to every men that'll cross their path... Nothing of that has happened. Granted, men cannot get pregnant, but women haven't become reckless s***s, nor will men in the long run.

 

I look forward to reading your commentaries and reactions.

[negparis]

I believe it was mentioned in the newspapers the day the decision was announced, 8 months ago or so. Apart from that, I can't say I've seen any information/publicity around prep in France. The official communication from government agencies or NGOs still seems to be : condoms !

 

It's easy to lose sight that people here are way more informed than the general gay population, and heavily skewed towards barebacking. But as a rule, you'll find : many guys that use condoms often or always ; many who say they are safe but regularly forget about it in action ; those that couldn't care less (some of them probably never testing) ; and everything in between. Just like everywhere else, I'd surmise? Where/how you meet people certainly also tends to stir the odds of meeting one or the other. Just because you met a guy, doesn't mean the next guy will have the same attitude towards bb sex.

 

You have to realize that Prep availability is still quite limited. It's not like any place or doctor can offer it. It began with just a few hospitals. Even in Paris, I believe it was only two to start with. If you were in a smaller provincial town, out of luck! But it's about to become better: STD screening centers, of which there is a good network, should be able to offer it.

 

I'm in Paris. I've been to a specialized screening center that caters mostly to homosexuals, and also follows up many gays with HIV. They'll get the agreement soon, and my plan is to get on prep after the summer. Even though the physicist was very open when I mentioned it, I got a feeling they will not generally advise it as the number one method to stay safe. More like : ok, you know you don't always use condoms? Then maybe that's something for you.

 

A minor bother is that they tend to propose the version they've tested here : 2 pills the day before, or up to 2 hours before sex, and then one pill a day for 2 days. Repeat as necessary. Given what I've read here, that it takes 7 days to reach full concentration of medicine in the body, and given that the PEP is a 30 days long affair, I think I'll take the standard one pill a day regimen...

 

I didn't expect what I read from Paris student about the bad reactions on Grindr. You do see a "on prep" profile here and there... Would not have come to me to shame them !

[paris_student]

Oh absolutely, they tried so hard to convince me to try the "on-demand" thing, but I just take it every day, it's easier and psychologically at least I feel really protected.

 

Yes, no publicity whatsoever. The official Fb page for PrEP in France painfully reached 2,000 members after 8 months. The perpetual pushing of "condoms condoms condoms" at any cost is also quite preposterous I dare say. And about the gay population here: spot on ! Most people don't know what the fuck they're doing (and who they're doing). It's such a mess.

 

"on PrEP" profiles are still very rare, and unfortunately you do get slut-shamed when you mention you don't use condoms. The nicest comments are the ones that say "wow you're really reckless, aren't you afraid of catching STDs and eventually dying ?". And it just demonstrates how separated and un-united we are as a community.