My husband's killer

[bbzh]

@leatherpunk16: This thread really breaks my heart and I'm not that comfortable commenting on it to be honest. I'd encourage you to talk to a licensed therapist to process the grief and seek closure. I worry that going the legal route will frustrate you, cost you time, money and effort and perhaps not deliver the justice you seek. 

Mark and Carl, according to you, have a history of playing together (successfully) under the influence of substances. That suggests a certain level of trust. I have zero experience with PnP, but I've always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that anything can happen under those circumstances. Furthermore, more than 2 weeks passed between the party and Mark's death. If Mark said nothing to you to suggest Carl was directly responsible for what happened to him, then maybe he isn't. Carl may indeed be an unsavory character who hosted a party where things went left, but that does not mean he is a killer. 

I'm very sympathetic to your plight. Defense attorneys are not. There are many unanswered questions here that Carl could exploit to create reasonable doubt. That's why I'm in favor of moving past this very sad event in a way that is least taxing for you psychologically. Good luck to you man. 

[tallslenderguy]

Leatherpunk, i think you've gotten some thoughtful and valuable input here.  i deal with this kind of stuff all the time as a critical care nurse. i got a patient yesterday who came into the ED tweaking. His tox screen tested positive for meth, he denied partying to me.  He was all over the map physically, arms flailing, heart racing.  Of course, i don't see the guys who PnP and perceive they are having a good time, i see all the issues that arise with PnP, most common are brain damage and heart damage. People destroy their hearts beyond repair and need a transplant, but usually cannot get one because of the cause. 

my input is similar to many. i think you need closure and i think counseling with a grief counselor is a good idea, as well as joining a group so you won't be alone with this. 

Thank you for sharing this. i think your sharing this and talking about it on this site is one of the best things you can do to honor Marks memory.  There is so much fantasy that happens on this site, guys romanticizing and fetishizing drugs and disease, but rarely with a balanced understanding. Your sharing your and Marks story is a sad and common outcome that our community needs to grasp. i love my gay family and i long for us to be a healthy and thriving community, not one bent on self destruction.

 i've been around drugs since i was 13, been at more parties than i can count, but have always been the observer, never partook. Now as a healthcare provider, i see all the people who have bad experiences, and the many who progressively kill themselves with reuse.  We need to see the sadness and grief that these drugs can cause.

[leatherpunk16]

Thank you for all the help, guys. This has given me immense insight to my difficulty. I'm over the worst of the grief - didn't weep at all on our anniversary, so that's a plus. 

No matter what I decide to do, one thing is an absolute and cannot be changed.

 

Mark isn't coming back. 

 

[TTFN]

On 12/17/2019 at 4:04 PM, NastyRigPig said:

I think you’re going to find yourself frustrated if you seek out justice.  The system is geared towards moneyed interests, and any actions that you may be tempted to take would probably be construed as vigilante justice or harassment.   Check out GLAAD or Lambda legal, or see if there are other legal resources in your community.

There is a reason it is called "the criminal justice system"

Justice for the criminal, the victim not so much.

I feel for you leatherpunk16.

[leatherpunk16]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:54 PM, skinster said:

And it's possibly Carl who tricked Mark along to those circumstances on purpose to ingest whatever through a spiked water bottle at his house. Or one of other people present there, with or without Carl's direct knowledge to such effect, who had done the same or offered. Or Mark by accident grabbed the closest water bottle being not empty to quench the thirst -

I'm re-reading some of my posts, and I wanted to address this reply.

It's curious that you said this. I never mentioned that detail about the water bottle, but Mark certainly did. When I asked him how it happened, he seemed to think he drank something out of the wrong cup. That it's oddly specific makes me think ... Do you know something that I don't, or was that just coincidence? 

[skinster]

I can't say that I know anythings relevant to any part of your story other than what you said before. But at the same time my earlier comments are not a coincidence. It's closer to experience kind. This post turning out to be long. Sorry.

I've been around too many blocks stateside and especially overseas being a pervert that I am. And I have seen similar scenarios with literally only minute details missing from your description. It's not very hard for me to add possibilities without turning into overly fantastic hypotheticals that I would re-engage your suspended disbelief to what I am saying. Partially it is also a professional trait. I think I can elaborate below. Here is a movie quote for you - "What your eyes see, your mind believes" (Swordfish).

I think I've ventured before a guess that you may never be able to find out something factual to what happened with Mark that would have come from a 3rd trustworthy professional party - police, doctor, hospital, etc. The reason is simple - known details are too vague for them to be certain and convey that certainty to other people. But at the same time you are seeking closure and completion to depth of understanding driving your own mind into overdrive. I understand it is a very emotional subject for you. Rightfully so. I have no interest to rub into that wound.

On the other hand sociopaths are usually very calculating personalities. Drug dealing usually demonstrates that clearly. I have no reason to doubt at the time Carl was one of them. And had it been a pre-calculated scenario with Mark, or not the first run of the mill play party where Carl was pulling an impromptu amateur hour and Mark just happened to be a next guy, I'd say that scenario ran as expected - bottom got knocked out on GHB or meth and what not and got used relentlessly every which way many times over. Accidental scene prop change, room rotation or an intentional switch is the easiest trick in the book if there is an opportunity to distract somebody while you're doing it. Where details of that scenario would be ready and polished smooth to a degree that would have kept your disbelief to change in circumstances around you very much suspended. It would look natural and unsuspiciously regular. Had you been inebriated - the host doesn't even have to try that hard. This bottle, that bottle. Whatever cup, whatever's in the cup. It didn't even have had to be a bottle. But there is nothing certain. You can counter it only with level of your own attention. As a common container for liquids portioned for single use (explanation later) - shit, I even have single-packs of tooth brushes for someone the morning after if they stay over, not just a case of pint water bottles. You get to crack the cap - if you notice it - it's all yours and you take it with you. Everything is just in level of preparation. But it didn't go exactly to plan for Carl - end scenes involved some medics. However used to course of play that he was, he probably wasn't ready for this on that day. And subsequently any forced attempt to yield an explanation out of the blue showed reluctance on detail and gaps that re-engage that same suspended disbelief. Not smooth any more. You no longer trust the explanation, and you didn't expect it to fail that soon. And rational mind thinks that there is something not said out of a conspiratorial attempt to embellish, which it very well may be. Because that's what the mind does - watches for patters and organizes them into pictures.

I've seen enough passed out bottoms in bathhouses that got fucked without even registering it. With and without their own intent. I've seen people at sex parties scavenging and drinking up from others' leftover cups and beer bottles just to get more drunk and get fucked quicker. I've had people overdoing drugs in one-on-one play with me personally. You really can't demand morality there, and I am making no opinion of Mark in those circumstances. I've heard enough stories from my contacts in local law enforcement and EMS that I worked with over the course of many years of how fucked up the indiscriminate humans can get. It never ends - there's continuous slew of punters trying for things out of common norm just because it came to their mind, one thing more fucked up than the other. And that is before you get to anything sexually deviant. Sex you don't even have to describe to me - I've been there myself, seen and done it first hand. Nevermind, both hands.

As to single-portion liquids - that is a note from a different story. One of my doctors taught me that a liquid is the most efficient method of payload delivery - both for medicine and for poison, both ingestion and injection. And if you have problems with blood pressure, watching out for salty chips is easy. But you never notice the salt in sauces because it's already dissolved and could be more concentrated than chips themselves. Smother that ketchup. Because in turn you don't see crystals of salt as an identifiable ingredient added at will. It is already there. Or a spiked bottle of whatever standing handy to be pulled up, if there was such a plan and a bottle in the story with Mark. "What your eyes see (or don't see), your mind believes". And if you remember the story of former Soviet spy in London Alex Litvinenko - he got poisoned by a radioactive isotope put in his tea, in a posh London hotel bar by someone he was meeting with and considered a friendly, when all his professional training was to be suspicious of every detail - he already defected. Cat and mouse experience, no sex involved. His human error in concert with opposing malicious intent.

I see now how much I don't know in that story with Carl and Mark.

Edited May 20, 2020 by skinster

[cumslutfuckpig]

I’ve read a few posts, have a few comments.  First - I can feel the ache and your rage.  I’m sorry this happened to you.  Sometimes injuries to ourselves are easier to survive than injuries to the ones we love.   This was horrendous   

second, courtrooms are a place that loathe uncertainty - and while you can logically construe what happened, convincing a courtroom to side with you will require concrete evidence *and* few alternative hypotheses.  I fear that a courtroom will tie your healing to a long, drawn out, and uncertain process.  And this has the risk of consuming you utterly.  
 

you may find yourself in the position of a choosing between feeling like you have to walk away empty, or sacrifice yourself to fight a long shot that will consume years of your life.  I don’t think either of those are doable.   You’re going to have to find a middle ground.  It won’t be adequate, but you likely feel that you must do something.  At the risk of getting myself in trouble, and although I’d never advocate any illegal activity, I recommend something sneaky and underhanded and deeply satisfying.  It could be symbolic, or it could be substantial.  I would agree with guys who said to be very careful about your degree of visibility.  Moneyed interests can be very efficient.  It would take nothing to pop your trunk, plant drugs, and make an anonymous call, and you’re no longer a problem for them.