Why do men revel in the degradation of "others"

[Inception]

I was reading the NY Times book section online this morning and there is an interesting review by Jeanette Winterson of a book about Henry Miller titled Renegade: Henry Miller and the Making of “Tropic of Cancer” by author Frederick Turner.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/books/review/renegade-henry-miller-and-the-making-of-tropic-of-cancer-by-frederick-turner-book-review.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=books

Now I realize that Winterson is a famous lesbian and feminist, so her problems with Miller and with this book have to take those things into account. But what I found interesting, and perhaps applicable to this site is what she had to say in her final paragraph:

"There is beauty as well as hatred in “Cancer,” and it deserves its place on the shelf. Yet the central question it poses was stupidly buried under censorship in the 1930s, and gleefully swept aside in the permissiveness of the 1960s. Kate Millet asked the question in the 1970s, but the effort to ignore it is prodigious. A new round of mythmaking is ignoring it once more. The question is not art versus pornography or sexuality versus censorship or any question about achievement. The question is: Why do men revel in the degradation of women? "

I found her final question intriguing. It is not just women that some men revel in degrading. Look at the stuff people on here are into. I made my way to this site after seeing some of RawTop's vids on x-tube. I love bareback sex, and was surprised at the open attitude towards people like myself who are HIV positive.

I think bareback sex is FUN! I like FUN things!

Yes my idea of fun is probably kinkier than most regular people's. Not everyone wants to swab off a 12 inch cock with their throat straight outta another guy's asshole. I think it's a blast and I don't need to be drugged when I'm doing it.

But, I have had my eyes opened to a great deal more on this site than just FUN bareback goodtimes. Around the same time I started reading this site I had a strange experience in my real life (I posted about it probably when I was high off my rocker a few weeks back). Sex is starting to not seem to be about fun goodtimes.

For so many people the whole taboo of bbing relates to degrading others or being degraded themselves. Bugchasing and chemming are also about degradation.

Why? Why can't sex just be FUN?

Edited January 29, 2012 by Inception
spelling

[TonyRedux]

I was reading the NY Times book section online this morning and there is an interesting review by Jeanette Winterson of a book about Henry Miller titled Renegade: Henry Miller and the Making of “Tropic of Cancer” by author Frederick Turner.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/books/review/renegade-henry-miller-and-the-making-of-tropic-of-cancer-by-frederick-turner-book-review.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=books

Now I realize that Winterson is a famous lesbian and feminist, so her problems with Miller and with this book have to take those things into account. But what I found interesting, and perhaps applicable to this site is what she had to say in her final paragraph:

"There is beauty as well as hatred in “Cancer,” and it deserves its place on the shelf. Yet the central question it poses was stupidly buried under censorship in the 1930s, and gleefully swept aside in the permissiveness of the 1960s. Kate Millet asked the question in the 1970s, but the effort to ignore it is prodigious. A new round of mythmaking is ignoring it once more. The question is not art versus pornography or sexuality versus censorship or any question about achievement. The question is: Why do men revel in the degradation of women? "

I found her final question intriguing. It is not just women that some men revel in degrading. Look at the stuff people on here are into. I made my way to this site after seeing some of RawTop's vids on x-tube. I love bareback sex, and was surprised at the open attitude towards people like myself who are HIV positive.

I think bareback sex is FUN! I like FUN things!

Yes my idea of fun is probably kinkier than most regular people's. Not everyone wants to swab off a 12 inch cock with their throat straight outta another guy's asshole. I think it's a blast and I don't need to be drugged when I'm doing it.

But, I have had my eyes opened to a great deal more on this site than just FUN bareback goodtimes. Around the same time I started reading this site I had a strange experience in my real life (I posted about it probably when I was high off my rocker a few weeks back). Sex is starting to not seem to be about fun goodtimes.

For so many people the whole taboo of bbing relates to degrading others or being degraded themselves. Bugchasing and chemming are also about degradation.

Why? Why can't sex just be FUN?

sex is too big to be just one thing...it will inevitably bring up core aspects of ourselves that go far beyond simple pleasure.

[Belfast-Bottom]

I agree with Tony's point.

I also think that submission and dominance are central to most people's sexuality. Animals mount each other. Human beings are descended from lizards - literally. As a student, I had a summer job in a factory full of blue collar hetero men. When discussing an attractive woman, some of their most frequent remarks were "boy, I would do her some damage", "she'd be walking funny for months" - you get the picture. Males/Tops get to penetrate, pound and plant their seed in a bottom. It can be an ego rush. On those occasions when I fuck a guy, I can sense my power. Frequent phrases on this site about "marking" a bottom and "owning" a hole, display that mindset. I think there is an undercurrent of S/M ( even mild violence ) in most people's sexuality. As the U.K. becomes less strait laced sexually there has been a rapid growth in the HETERO BDSM scene. "Disturbing" urges which had been repressed for years are increasingly being spoken about and acted upon.

Some people like to think sex should be pink and fluffy. It can also be very dark and spiky!

[nastybottom]

Yes my idea of fun is probably kinkier than most regular people's. Not everyone wants to swab off a 12 inch cock with their throat straight outta another guy's asshole. I think it's a blast and I don't need to be drugged when I'm doing it.

If I wanted to be really self-righteous and preachy (as well as hypocritical), I could lecture you about allowing yourself to be degraded by doing ATM and not having enough self-esteem. Fun and degradation aren't mutally exclusive. Just as with everything in sex, each of our comfort levels vary.

[mikey cunt]

Just as some men need to humiliate and degrade their partners, others, such as myself, need to be humiliated and degraded. Use, abuse, degradation reinforces our sense of ourselves.

[Deaner]

Just because some people see something as degrading, doesn't mean that it is. There are lots of straight guys out there who would consider sucking cock or getting fucked in the ass as the ultimate degradation. Then there are lots of us who do it because we enjoy it and even make a romantic connection out of it.

Personally, I have lots of kinks that others would see as degrading. Some tops are turned off by them because they think they're hurting my pride in some way, others get off on the power they see themselves as having... either is fine with me. Once in a while, I'll find a kindred spirit who understands that I LIKE licking feet or being locked in a chastity cage and can enjoy it on the same level as I do. If I ask you to piss in my ass it's because I like the feel of it. If I ATM, it's because I want to suck your cock and don't care that it's been in my clean hole. If me doing that gives you a sense of domination or degradation, I'm not going to question your motives as long as you don't question mine.

There are people who enjoy the taste of piss or get aroused by physical pain, just as there are those who feel fulfilled when they are humiliated or called names.

Just about any sex act can be seen as degrading in some way, some women even get offended if you open a door for them! Who's to judge if you like working the dark rooms or glory holes because you enjoy cock but don't want to be burdened by knowing who they belong to? In some ways, it's no more offensive than a blind date or arranged marriage. Is it degrading to enjoy bondage because you like having someone else give you attention without having a choice in the matter, or have a secret admirer send you flowers without a note? Is it worse to suffer through the pain of a spanking or flogging, or to have to pay for an expensive dinner and jewelry?

Some people are romantic, some are kinky. Some are physical, while for others it's all in the mind.

[Pig Bottom]

If someone needs to degrade an humiliate others it's most likely a product of a horrible upbringing and them lashing out at their parents and using a substitute to do it.

If you do it for play that's fine, if you take it seriously get help if you want it.

I won't put myself in a situation to be demeaned or degraded.

[bearbandit]

For any sex act you can think of, there's someone doing right now and thinking it's the hottest thing ever, someone else who thinks it's the most revolting thing ever, and another who thinks it's the funniest thing ever.

[bearbandit]

Sorry, that last post should have read "there someone doing it right now"...

Degradation is in the eye of the beholder. One of the most powerful sessions I had last year was one I shouldn't have allowed to happen: he was a good ten years older than his online photos, and lied in other ways, but I was thinking with my lower brain. Had he been a bit more honest and a little more flexible in outlook, ongoing emotional stuff might have happened. Breath control was a big thing for him ("the border between life and death"), and I let him put me out. It was something I'd always been scared of, giving up control as fully as that, especially as a guy who'd known the technique had snuck up on me and put me out as a joke. Despite all my misgivings and the past I let him do it and remember waking up in tears at what he'd given me. He'd exerted pretty much the ultimate control over me, and I'd loved that. Was that degrading? I don't think so...

[TonyRedux]

Sorry, that last post should have read "there someone doing it right now"...

Degradation is in the eye of the beholder. One of the most powerful sessions I had last year was one I shouldn't have allowed to happen: he was a good ten years older than his online photos, and lied in other ways, but I was thinking with my lower brain. Had he been a bit more honest and a little more flexible in outlook, ongoing emotional stuff might have happened. Breath control was a big thing for him ("the border between life and death"), and I let him put me out. It was something I'd always been scared of, giving up control as fully as that, especially as a guy who'd known the technique had snuck up on me and put me out as a joke. Despite all my misgivings and the past I let him do it and remember waking up in tears at what he'd given me. He'd exerted pretty much the ultimate control over me, and I'd loved that. Was that degrading? I don't think so...

wow. glad i come from a culture of Blood Vengeance several millenia old...

[rawTOP]

Sex for people who are exclusive tops or exclusive bottoms is often about power and control (true for some vers guys too). Degradation is just a form of power play - it's putting someone in their place - which is a natural part of sex that's based on power and control. It only works if there is truth to what's being said and/or if the bottom accepts the degradation.

If you're the romantic type who wants a loving relationship based on equality, then none of this will make any sense. I balance those two sides by having a loving equal relationship with my boyfriend (who's also a top) and I fuck bottoms who I often see as "just holes" (or sometimes even less).

[bearbandit]

While I absolutely agree with rawTOP here, and as a versatile guy, can attest that the power can switch back and forward between those involved, I'd have to say that it only works if both can get it into that headspace. If the bottom accepts and the top goes along with the bottom's acceptance, well, Bingo. Go for it lads! My dick doesn't listen to psychological lectures about what's going on, but it does know what makes me feel good.

It can make perfect sense to the romantic type: "uh, I think this is something that belongs next door in the playroom". Or better: "will you two fuck off into the playroom and if I can't sleep I'll be in later" . We worked on the principle that once you crossed the threshhold of the playroom all (dis)belief was suspended. Anything possible, just a matter of having the skils to get it right for the other(s). Sex, even SM sex, is a skill, and doesn't always have to happen the same way round - even the SM side can be jettisoned for a session... Sometime it's cuddly-wuddly sex, sometimes it's "how many toys can we play with?", Sometimes it's picking up a guy who acts somewhere inthe middle of the dynamic... It's very versatile ;-)

[Inception]

Thanks to all for their responses, I was abit worried that my question might offend.

One reply got me thinking:

If I wanted to be really self-righteous and preachy (as well as hypocritical), I could lecture you about allowing yourself to be degraded by doing ATM and not having enough self-esteem. Fun and degradation aren't mutally exclusive. Just as with everything in sex, each of our comfort levels vary.

I guess I just never see myself as being degraded. But I have a pretty strong personality, and am also a big, kinda butch looking guy. Now that I think about it, quite a few of the guys I do like that they are making that kind of guy their bottom. None of them are really into S&M, and for some even leather is too kinky, but they love knowing that a big guy who works in construction and in his day to day life passes for straight just wants to stick his tongue up their sweaty ass and open his hole for them. I'm just having a ball, and I usually laugh and don't take things too seriously when I'm fucking; and maybe cause I am kinda dominant in everything else I do outside of sex, they're afraid to tell me what's going on in their heads. I know I turn off guys who want to be really physically violent because I don't take it and punch back. With breath control, I've had bottoms want me to do it to them, and I just could never. If a guy tried it on me you'd better believe he wouldn't be waking up ever. After reading rawTOP's blog about the gentleman of African-American descent I know he'd fucking HATE me.

Inception = lousy lay

[StlBottom]

There was a time in my life when I tried to find out why I was sexually the way I am. After several years of searching including professional sex counseling I did not find a single clue, no definitive reason. No abuse, no trauma, no molestation (against my will anyway), nothing, nada, zippo. I was left with two choices, conform to what the mainstream said I should be sexually and live in misery or live a life of sexual pleasure and fulfillment with no regrets.

I have no regrets.

[PhoenixGeoff]

Sex for people who are exclusive tops or exclusive bottoms is often about power and control (true for some vers guys too). Degradation is just a form of power play - it's putting someone in their place - which is a natural part of sex that's based on power and control. It only works if there is truth to what's being said and/or if the bottom accepts the degradation.

If you're the romantic type who wants a loving relationship based on equality, then none of this will make any sense. I balance those two sides by having a loving equal relationship with my boyfriend (who's also a top) and I fuck bottoms who I often see as "just holes" (or sometimes even less).

I don't know about that. There's a difference between "putting a bottom in his place" and fucking a guy who sees himself as nothing but a hole. The former makes me assert my dominance, sometimes by force. It's the challenge and the ultimate win that's the turn-on to me.

Having a guy who's submissive and wants my cock from the get-go is a completely different thing. Yeah, it can be great if I just want to get off, kind of as if I were using him as a fleshlight. But there's no thrill that goes along with knowing I'm fucking a man.

I think that's why I may end up on the bottom more than I top. It's hard finding bottoms that are willing to be more than sex toys, that haven't already degraded themselves. But it's also hard finding tops who are brave enough to get into a scene where they risk ending up on the bottom themselves, so I'm careful when I'm in that top mode that things don't end up crossing the line into (actual) rape.

Anyways, to get back to the question, I think men like it for the same reasons we like fighting and aggression and winning. It's the testosterone.