THE TRUE MEANING OF BAREBACKING - and why stealth pozzing is the very opposite of it.

[GermanFucker]

After reading some of the replies on the "Florida man busted for giving teen HIV" that quite frankly made my stomach turn, I felt the need to make a statement. I know, this is the internet and lots of the stuff said on the internet is bullshit, and on every forum that deals with sex at least a fifth of the guys are provocateurs, yet virgins in real life. Still, I refuse to believe that ALL barebackers are either sociopaths or trolls.

If we have no sense of basic honor, of history and brotherhood, barebacking as a concept has no meaning. And if barebacking has no meaning, we could use condoms because it's all the same anyway.

AT ITS CORE, BAREBACKING IS NOT ABOUT AIDS.

HIV is something that comes with the territory, it's something to be accepted (if it's your thing, even enjoyed), but it's not what makes the barebacker. Just like joint pains and injuries are something professional athletes have to deal with. It's not what they strive for - that would be olympic medals, but it's something they willingly accept. Just the same a soldier will take pride in his battle scars, but he will not try to get shot because that is not his purpose. He does what he does because of what he is, not because of battlefield souvenirs.

At it's core, barebacking is about manliness, about LIVING LIFE ON YOUR OWN TERMS, about being what you were meant to be. To me, being a man means 4 things:

- INSTINCT

- FREEDOM TO CHOOSE

- BROTHERHOOD

- RESPONSIBILITY

INSTINCT. It is a man's function on earth to breed. Plain, pure and simple. Only by giving in to our most basic desires we self-actualize as men. It is during the very moment of fucking we truly become what we were meant to be. Total focus. Just like the athlete in his strive to be the best we strip ourselves of inhibitions and distractions. Noone would instinctively use a condom. It's a cultural imposition on a natural process. By losing the condom we give up society's approval for what feels instinctively right, for our birthright as men.

FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. But most of all, it's about choice. At its core, we have unsafe sex not because it makes sense or because we are mentally ill or because we are poz or because of peer pressure, but simply because it is our choice and we choose to do so. Because we are aware of the consequences and accept them and we don't have to explain or apologize for any of it. The same goes for all the associated choices, i.e. with whom to bareback and inhowfar we seek out risk and HIV. In that regard our personal choices might be slightly different, but they are valid. Just the same as I expect someone else to respect my choices, I will respect his. Doesn't mean I will have sex with him, it just means I don't preach as I myself don't wanna be preached to.

BROTHERHOOD. It is this bond of respect for - what in the eyes of society at large might be excentrical or dangerous - another man's way of life, that makes us brothers. Though choice is an individual act, by realizing its scope and significance and that we are all equals when it comes to the choice of barebacking we do form a community. However this also means that I have no right to take my fellow man's choices away from him. If a guy is offering up his ass bareback in a backroom, he made his choice. However, if he doesn't fully understand the consequences of his actions, he cannot really make an informed choice. I cannot be somebody elses brother if I betray or mislead or abuse him. Lying and stealthing is not ok. The glory of bareback sex is the willingness of the other to buckle up and choose for himself to walk on the wild side with me. Why would I cheapen that by being dishonest?

RESPONSIBILITY. Responsibility also means not spitting into the eye of those who came before us and often didn't choose to die of HIV / AIDS. If a 22-year old (who has never lost anyone he cared for) proclaims that he wants to go "all the way" and that he wants to take as many others as possible with him, how does that sound to a survivor of the AIDS crisis, to whom barebacking started out as an act of defiance against a cruel fate and way of making sense of things? HIV shouldn't be spread beyond those who want it. Of course it's not that easy, but we should at least try.

To me, barebacking is a celebration of life and of being a man. But one cannot celebrate with someone who isn't a man or doesn't value life. Because it's meaningless.

[ked239]

I agree with a lot of what you said, that thread rather got out of hand and people, including myself, were commenting on it before further details of the case had been made clear.

I do think personal responsibility and taking responsibility for your actions is a major part of barebacking, and that the vast majority of 15 year olds are able to take on that responsibility, regardless of whether the law says it is 14, 16, 18, 21 or illegal. That really comes down to age of consent, which is just another societal construct and doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, although I personally would never sleep with an under 16, partly because of the law but also because I prefer guys in their 20s and 30s.

On the point of stealthing, I would say that there's a big difference between just not mentioning your status and lying about your status. Not mentioning is something that occurs between both partners in a sexual act, the negative guy should ask just as much as the positive guy should, if neither do, there is an implicit agreement that it's not important. However, if one or the other asks, then an honest answer should be expected from both, if not, that's a serious betrayal of trust.

Do I think HIV-transmission is attempted murder? No, do I think not mentioning your status should be punishable? No, do I think lying about your status in order to attempt to spread HIV is wrong? Yes, you then reach a point of what sort of punishment, and I run into serious difficulties here, if transmission doesn't occur, I struggle to see any provable criminal intent, if it does occur, then I guess it would be some sort of assault charge, an attempted murder charge in a Western country is just ridiculous.

[rawTOP]

I gotta disagree. I think HIV is much more tightly wound into bareback culture than you think. Unlike soldiers where a few come home wounded. It's rare for a barebacker to stay neg. Barebacking pretty much equals poz. Only a few tops and the lucky guys who are immune/resistant escape that.

The bareback brotherhood is a poz brotherhood. And bug chasing and gift giving are natural parts of that milieu.

[ked239]

People who think they can serosort and stay negative while barebacking are totally fooling themselves, I agree with that rawTOP, barebacking is a lifestyle choice and will almost certainly result in a positive result eventually, but I still think that lying about your status is a serious breach of trust, not just for HIV, but for hep, syph, hell even something minor like chlamydia, if someone up front asks you, you should reply honestly

[hairypwet]

I completely agree. I'm up front poz and have never been refused for that reason. The context where I'm apt to be a cumdump for a new partner is in group actions. Old partners know the score. Hell, in an orgy one should expect everyone is poz. When one fucker pulls out and another pushes in, there's no conversation or negotiating. When asked if I'm "safe", my answer is NO, with or without obscene add ons.

[GermanFucker]

I gotta disagree. I think HIV is much more tightly wound into bareback culture than you think. Unlike soldiers where a few come home wounded. It's rare for a barebacker to stay neg. Barebacking pretty much equals poz. Only a few tops and the lucky guys who are immune/resistant escape that.

My bad for using two metaphors in the same paragraph, that is indeed confusing. What I said was:

A.) Almost all professional athletes pay a price just like almost all barebackers do. But both strive for the glory (of sex the way god intended, in the second case).

B.) Soldiers pride themselves not of their injuries, but of their perseverance despite those injuries. The point of pride is the soldier lifestyle, not the fact that for a brief moment on the battlefield they got bested .

The bareback brotherhood is a poz brotherhood.

Statistically, of course, yes it is. THERE IS A VERY HIGH CORRELATION. But as always: Coincidence doesn't equal causality. HIV doesn't make you a barebacker (Everyone can mention countless examples to the contrary). The only thing that makes you a barebacker is the decision to have unsafe sex.

And bug chasing and gift giving are natural parts of that milieu.

As a subculture, maybe. But at the same time I think it's a stereotype. Just like only a few of us gays are drag queens, only a few get a thrill out of actually getting infected, whereas every man gets a thrill out of seeding orifices.

Having risky sex - as an expression of youthful foolishness - and bug chasing - i.e. intentionally seeking a chronic disease - is not the same.

Most guys who fuck bareback just want to fuck around without rubbers. They want to be close to their fellow men and NOT CARE ABOUT HIV, instead of fetishizing HIV.

[rivertimber]

To GermanFucker, AHMEN. I have to agree with every point that you made.

To RawTop: As I have gotten older and a hell of a lot wizer, the fact that many on here and elsewhere state that "If you bareback then it is not if you contract an STD (like HIV), but it is only when." Many people do not think of barebacking as looking for STDs/HIV. They simply like to bareback. They are the blind masses in heat. Sure they hear the preaching of safe sex, use protection, know your partner, etc; but they get into that heated moment and just fuck. And yes with that attatude then they are going to be really supprised when a test comes back positive for a STD/HIV.

As to the case referenced. One, every teen through adult to old geezer should know what the state or states law is on legal age of consent. DUH!!! If you like them young, do you have to card each and every one? YES!

Second, if you are HIV poz or any other STD then you need to say or discuss your status. If the fuck is young then consider them DUMB. NUMB DUMB. This is not the early eighties. The BIG SCARE is not out there. People are not dieing left and right. Magic did not die. Today people, especially today's youth, are preached about condoms and STDs but it is not scaring them. It is not a major reality to them. Now older people have a better understanding of choices and consequences. Now, if you advertize yourself on a hookup site and (as discussed in other threads) you list as "Poz" or "Ask Me" or "Undetectable" then you are already making that statement and if the fuck doesn't ask then you should not. Hell I find some of these fictional stories of stealthing, stealth pozzing, and straight up known pozzing hot and exciting. But I would not want to be stealth pozzed in no shape or form. (Granted some of the guys that fucked me may have had an STD and not known it. Therefore, seeding me with something.)

[HolePunchSD]

While I agree with most of what GermanFucker wrote (and quitely eloquently, btw), I think the one thing that he did leave out was ACCOUNTABILITY. Barebacking, to me has never been about seroconverting or passing the HIV virus on to others, but rather how good raw sex (at its deepest element) feels. I enjoy the sensation and like all of us on here, I enjoy being with men that enjoy that sensation as well. Everything other than that, is gravy.

[bbloadtaker2008]

After reading some of the replies on the "Florida man busted for giving teen HIV" that quite frankly made my stomach turn, I felt the need to make a statement. I know, this is the internet and lots of the stuff said on the internet is bullshit, and on every forum that deals with sex at least a fifth of the guys are provocateurs, yet virgins in real life. Still, I refuse to believe that ALL barebackers are either sociopaths or trolls.

If we have no sense of basic honor, of history and brotherhood, barebacking as a concept has no meaning. And if barebacking has no meaning, we could use condoms because it's all the same anyway.

AT ITS CORE, BAREBACKING IS NOT ABOUT AIDS.

HIV is something that comes with the territory, it's something to be accepted (if it's your thing, even enjoyed), but it's not what makes the barebacker. Just like joint pains and injuries are something professional athletes have to deal with. It's not what they strive for - that would be olympic medals, but it's something they willingly accept. Just the same a soldier will take pride in his battle scars, but he will not try to get shot because that is not his purpose. He does what he does because of what he is, not because of battlefield souvenirs.

At it's core, barebacking is about manliness, about LIVING LIFE ON YOUR OWN TERMS, about being what you were meant to be. To me, being a man means 4 things:

- INSTINCT

- FREEDOM TO CHOOSE

- BROTHERHOOD

- RESPONSIBILITY

INSTINCT. It is a man's function on earth to breed. Plain, pure and simple. Only by giving in to our most basic desires we self-actualize as men. It is during the very moment of fucking we truly become what we were meant to be. Total focus. Just like the athlete in his strive to be the best we strip ourselves of inhibitions and distractions. Noone would instinctively use a condom. It's a cultural imposition on a natural process. By losing the condom we give up society's approval for what feels instinctively right, for our birthright as men.

FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. But most of all, it's about choice. At its core, we have unsafe sex not because it makes sense or because we are mentally ill or because we are poz or because of peer pressure, but simply because it is our choice and we choose to do so. Because we are aware of the consequences and accept them and we don't have to explain or apologize for any of it. The same goes for all the associated choices, i.e. with whom to bareback and inhowfar we seek out risk and HIV. In that regard our personal choices might be slightly different, but they are valid. Just the same as I expect someone else to respect my choices, I will respect his. Doesn't mean I will have sex with him, it just means I don't preach as I myself don't wanna be preached to.

BROTHERHOOD. It is this bond of respect for - what in the eyes of society at large might be excentrical or dangerous - another man's way of life, that makes us brothers. Though choice is an individual act, by realizing its scope and significance and that we are all equals when it comes to the choice of barebacking we do form a community. However this also means that I have no right to take my fellow man's choices away from him. If a guy is offering up his ass bareback in a backroom, he made his choice. However, if he doesn't fully understand the consequences of his actions, he cannot really make an informed choice. I cannot be somebody elses brother if I betray or mislead or abuse him. Lying and stealthing is not ok. The glory of bareback sex is the willingness of the other to buckle up and choose for himself to walk on the wild side with me. Why would I cheapen that by being dishonest?

RESPONSIBILITY. Responsibility also means not spitting into the eye of those who came before us and often didn't choose to die of HIV / AIDS. If a 22-year old (who has never lost anyone he cared for) proclaims that he wants to go "all the way" and that he wants to take as many others as possible with him, how does that sound to a survivor of the AIDS crisis, to whom barebacking started out as an act of defiance against a cruel fate and way of making sense of things? HIV shouldn't be spread beyond those who want it. Of course it's not that easy, but we should at least try.

To me, barebacking is a celebration of life and of being a man. But one cannot celebrate with someone who isn't a man or doesn't value life. Because it's meaningless.

That is one of the deepest, most insightful and thoughtful postings I have seen in a good long while. I agree with you 100%. Thank you for sharing this and prompting a good soul-searching discussion.

[OKJOE]

GermanFucker, I've seen your comments on here a bunch. Each time I read your replies I wish everyone put as much effort into their posts. Thank you for elevating the discussion.

[evilqueerpig]

No matter what your opinion is on the subject, it should be read by all!