Pozzing by undetectable guys?

[seaguy]

Ahh interesting info, I didnt know they had that kind of data now.  

 

On the second part, it constantly amazes me how little people talk about status.   Not that asking is always going to give you a correct answer, but it does start a dialogue.  On that note I flipped with a 19 year old a week ago, we both came inside each other, and kept in contact a bit since then.  It was only today that he asked me, "oh btw you are neg right?" I reassured him, but also told him he should consider PrEP.  Hoping and luck are terrible ways to prevent HIV.    

The fact that so many younger guys are not asking seems to me at least to be due to a lack of education on the subject yet what does the AHF spend it's money on thanks to its head Michael Weinstein, lawyers and other costs associated with it's attempt to run the porn industry out of the state of California.  Seems like they would be preventing allot more infections by educating people.

[Poz1956]

I saw this over on the PrEP Facebook group, and thought it might be relevant here.  (Slightly edited to remove reference to other posts, clarify point, and add a link)

 

The most commonly used number for the lower limit of transmission is 1,500. That number comes from the Quinn et el, Reiki Project Cohort Group. I understand the UK is now using a more conservative 1,000.

The 2009 Attia et al paper titled "Sexual transmission of HIV according to viral load and antiretroviral therapy: systematic review and meta-analysis" found three transmissions below 1500, but all three were in untreated individuals. They were at 1492, 600, and 362.

I noticed Eric Paul Leue use the 362 reference in in his Bakersfield talk. It might be worth qualifying that with the "not on treatment" note in the future. Its from a 2005 study of heterosexual injection drug users in serodiscordant relationships titled "Effectiveness of highly active antiretroviral therapy in reducing heterosexual transmission of HIV," The number was not referenced in the paper, but was provided in personal communication from author Jesus Castilla to Attia et el.

From other studies we know that when a person is on treatment, most of the viviral copies in the genital tract are unfit, and incapable of transmitting HIV.

Totalling all the transmission studies in two meta-data analyses, plus the Partner study there are 18,120 couple YEARS of follow-up when the Poz person was on treatment. Without reference to viral load, or the time between starting treatment and a transmission event, across all those CYFU, there were 9 transmission. (eg The one transmission in HPTN 052 occurred ten days either before or after her husband started treatment)  Of the studies that did track viral load, there were zero transmission when the Poz person was undetectable. Across the studies the definition of undetectable varied from >500 to >40.

Attia et el "Sexual transmission of HIV according to viral load and antiretroviral therapy: systematic review and meta-analysis"
www.who.int/hiv/events/artprevention/attia_sexual.pdf

Loutfy et al "Systematic Review of HIV Transmission between Heterosexual Serodiscordant Couples where the HIV Positive Partner Is Fully Suppressed on Antiretroviral Therapy"
www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055747#pone-0055747-g002

Report on the presentation from the Partner study
www.aidsmap.com/page/2832748/

 

The slides and audio from the Partner study presentation
www.croiwebcasts.org/console/player/22072?mediaType=audio&
 

 

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

I have had a couple guys fuck and cum in me who were clear that they were poz and undetectable (to me sounds safer than unsure negs guys). They both fucked me several times, and now a few months later I'm still neg. Two cases though, are probably not enough to prove anything though but maybe.

Pre PreP I serosorted to Poz undetectable guys. Many loads, obviously no infection.

[wood]

Pre PreP I serosorted to Poz undetectable guys. Many loads, obviously no infection.

The only issue I see with this is that just like we have seen HIV+ guys lying about being neg, There have also been guys who lie about being undetectable.  Is it common? Id say no, but it does happen, and I've encountered it myself.  

 

I have a FB who went off meds for two months due to issue with depression, and there's a great chance he wasn't undetectable after that.  Another guy I met online said he was undetectable but didn't know what meds he was "on" or when his last labs were.  

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

The only issue I see with this is that just like we have seen HIV+ guys lying about being neg, There have also been guys who lie about being undetectable.  Is it common? Id say no, but it does happen, and I've encountered it myself.  

 

I have a FB who went off meds for two months due to issue with depression, and there's a great chance he wasn't undetectable after that.  Another guy I met online said he was undetectable but didn't know what meds he was "on" or when his last labs were.

Indeed, in interaction such as "are you undetectable? "Yes". "Fuck me now" would be too limited an interaction to determine much of anything. An actual conversation exploring when they converted, how that was for them, which meds, side effects, ones numbers.... Would tend to reveal more facts. This said, if it comes across as an interrogation you might get good information but be a total buzzkill. So use some finesse. Be genuine. Know you are conversing with a fellow human, not a piece of meat from the market. Obviously this does not lend itself to bath house sex. In those cases PreP your best option.

[Guest]

I have a friend who is faithful to his BF and they are inserable and his BF was undetectable. He still managed to get HIV from him.

[PhilUrass]

So, I know in theory taking undetectable loads is safe for a neg guy, more or less. But, what if that undetectable guy has a large-gauge PA, and the bottom has never been fucked by a guy with a PA before? Still unlikely, or could happen? Hypothetically! Hypothetically, of course....

I'm lost...I don't see that it matters if a guy has never been fucked by a PA before. PAs are smooth, there are no sharp edges. I've got a 7mm ring and have bred plenty of guys, many of them it's their first time with a pierced cock, and I've never had problems.