addiction, 12 step, and kink

[kinkygradstudent]

I'm putting on a workshop on addiction and D/s relationships for our local conference on Dom/sub relationships. I'm curious what sort of experiences y'all have had with addiction, 12 step, and other forms of recovery -- particularly as it relates to D/s, kink, barebacking, or leather lifestyles. And what kind of things would you want to be covered if you attended such a workshop.

Feel free to reply on the thread or by private mail.

[einathens]

seems like it would be the same issues as in a vanilla relationship.

if one partner is trying to stop using and the other isn't, it's probably not going to work.

if one partner is co-dependent or has a vested interest in the addiction continuing, it's definitely not going to work.

if both partners are commited to sobriety and are willing and able to support the new behavior, they have a fighting chance.

[PhoenixGeoff]

Mods, may want to move this to the chem forum...not sure how appropriate this is for the general one.

I will tell you that, as a guy who's tried a number of substances, and who has fairly extensive experience with meth, and also as someone who's gone through a rehab or two, the 12-step process pretty seriously as well as some alternative methods, I have to say that while my 12-step experiences did have some positive lessons for me, I'm not terribly sold on it as it relates to me.

Please note, that is not to say that it might not be right for a lot of people. Just not for me.

The first hurdle that many guys in our situation who are trying to get off of some kind of substance abuse is the difficulty of talking about things that are commonplace in our community that generally aren't discussed in mixed company. This isn't a matter of being willing to identify as gay; that's usually not an issue. It's harder to talk about our approach to sex, or the number of partners, or the particular fetishes we may have, especially as relates to barebacking and HIV issues in the context of pretty extreme promiscuity, anonymous sex, or even chasing/gifting. These are things that I wouldn't discuss with my very closest straight friends, even with some gay ones.

The problem is that people in *A may very well accept you talking about such behavior, but only in the context of the depths of depravity that substance abuse sunk you to. I found that there was a strong sex-negative bias in just about every group I attended, and that included groups that were run by and on behalf of gay men. That also included the gay man who had been my longest serving sponsor.

Now, to be sure, especially in my case, my sexual fetishes play a very strong role in my own substance abuse...the two were (and to some extent still are) tangled up pretty severely. Meth use in my case mostly manifested in shifting my already pretty healthy sex drive into overdrive. And conversely, my sexual activities even while sober would often lead me towards using again (for instance, if I went to a bathhouse and ran into someone with a supply there). But total abstinence from sex did very little to make things better; on the contrary, it ensured that when I fell off the wagon, I did so in every respect. Sexual abstinence only served to make keeping off meth harder because it offered additional pathways for me to screw up.

Now, most *A believers would tell you that both my drug use and my sex life were manifestations of the same underlying problems. And perhaps there's some element of truth to that. My sex life has changed since I started making some other fairly fundamental changes to my life. The problem is that, much as they will deny it, *A is intricately bound up with a particular sort of Christianity. And so it's pretty incomprehensible to most *A members that one wouldn't end up living a pretty Christian (in sexual terms, monogamous) life if indeed one was truly healthy.

Which leads to my main beef with *A. And it has a lot to do with their saying, "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it—then you are ready to take certain steps." The problem is, the more I looked at the people who had really stuck with the program, the more I decided that I really did not want what they had. Almost to a person, they had taken the intensity that had fueled their addiction and rechanneled it into the program. This lent an aura of cultishness to the program. It also led me to suspect that the 12-step process that supposedly addressed the underlying problems of addiction really didn't seem to do anything of the kind.

Now again, there may well be people here who are in recovery and who find that the 12-step program works very well for them. And I would certainly encourage anyone who's struggling with addiction to check out a number of groups, AA, NA, CA, CMA, whatever and give it your best shot. And furthermore, I'd encourage you to make absolutely sure that you are giving it a real try and not just going through the motions. For some people, it may be just what they need. But I'd also tell you that if *A isn't working out, that it's not the only game in town. And far from what the people in the rooms will tell you (and to me, this was another warning sign), there are people who manage to beat addictions through other means.

I've personally tried to take the best of what they taught me and apply it to my own life. And I'm grateful for the experience.

As far as advice goes, especially for barebacking, that's the same regardless of whether you're into drugs, in recovery, or never touched a mind-altering substance in your life. Educate yourself. Know the risks. Consider the moral consequences of what you want to get into. Search your conscience so you know you'll be able to live with yourself. And then go out and have fun within those parameters.

[GermanFucker]

Interesting post, MMM! Just some quick thoughts I had.

Mods, may want to move this to the chem forum...not sure how appropriate this is for the general one.

I think drug use is indeed a problem in the barebacking community and it doesn't hurt having it discussed by a wide audience.

The first hurdle that many guys in our situation who are trying to get off of some kind of substance abuse is the difficulty of talking about things that are commonplace in our community that generally aren't discussed in mixed company. This isn't a matter of being willing to identify as gay; that's usually not an issue. It's harder to talk about our approach to sex, or the number of partners, or the particular fetishes we may have, especially as relates to barebacking and HIV issues in the context of pretty extreme promiscuity, anonymous sex, or even chasing/gifting. These are things that I wouldn't discuss with my very closest straight friends, even with some gay ones.

However, especially with promiscuous gays / barebackers these problems often play into each other. As I said once before on another thread, the problem often isn't HIV alone or occasional drug use alone, it's the combination / nexus of HIV / Hepatitis, drugs, depression, de-socialization etc that can kill guys.

The problem is that people in *A may very well accept you talking about such behavior, but only in the context of the depths of depravity that substance abuse sunk you to. I found that there was a strong sex-negative bias in just about every group I attended, and that included groups that were run by and on behalf of gay men. That also included the gay man who had been my longest serving sponsor.

Well, sex has addictive potential as well (just like many former smokers suddenly become overeaters), many straight people can't image a gay reality and mistake common promiscuity for sex addiction. Many gay prudes do as well.

Now, to be sure, especially in my case, my sexual fetishes play a very strong role in my own substance abuse...the two were (and to some extent still are) tangled up pretty severely. Meth use in my case mostly manifested in shifting my already pretty healthy sex drive into overdrive.

[...]

But I'd also tell you that if *A isn't working out, that it's not the only game in town. And far from what the people in the rooms will tell you (and to me, this was another warning sign), there are people who manage to beat addictions through other means.

I've personally tried to take the best of what they taught me and apply it to my own life. And I'm grateful for the experience.

Couldn't have said it better. The secret is to fully enjoy sex without using it as a crutch. Most 12-step programs with ABSTINENCE at their core can't really help with that.

As far as advice goes, especially for barebacking, that's the same regardless of whether you're into drugs, in recovery, or never touched a mind-altering substance in your life. Educate yourself. Know the risks. Consider the moral consequences of what you want to get into. Search your conscience so you know you'll be able to live with yourself. And then go out and have fun within those parameters.

Also I'd say: Try to become self-aware and see all the aspects of the problem. Ask yourself: Why am I doing this? Some questions as to ascertain what is part of the problem and what's not might be:

- Can I enjoy sex for its own sake or does it only work in certain, drug-heavy, setting anymore?

- What are my real priorities (Drugs, sex, work, friends....)?

- Who are my real friends and what are my relationships really worth (if you believe your dealer is your best buddy, you have a problem)?

- Do I really enjoy bugchasing or is it just an obsessive behaviour typical for depression?

- What things are connected in my mind and elicit the same psychological reaction (addictive behaviour, withdrawal, anxiety etc.). If sex and drugs are one thing for you, that might be something to work on.

And so forth....

If I have a clear picture of what my problem is, I can choose the right setting for me (12-step, psychotherapy etc.). Conversely, I believe that with gay settings analysing the nature of the problem is so important, as it is often more complex than just "I am an alcoholic".

[PhoenixGeoff]

I think drug use is indeed a problem in the barebacking community and it doesn't hurt having it discussed by a wide audience.

My concern here is that the management has made the quite reasonable decision to confine discussion of drugs to that forum (which can be individually blocked by username), on the grounds that we're acting out of an abundance of caution to make sure no-one who is in recovery is triggered. I don't know exactly where that line is, but trust the judgment of the mods.

However, especially with promiscuous gays / barebackers these problems often play into each other. As I said once before on another thread, the problem often isn't HIV alone or occasional drug use alone, it's the combination / nexus of HIV / Hepatitis, drugs, depression, de-socialization etc that can kill guys.

This is really the heart of the matter. I will tell you that I got into anonymous bareback sex long before I ever heard that meth existed.

I've thought about where this comes from, because clearly, I'm far from the only one. I think there are a few sources:

• There's the closet itself, which means that our first gay experiences are much more likely to have been blowing a stranger in a park than dating a guy in high school.
  
• There's the internalized homophobia, which causes depression directly and probably plays a role in driving some gay men into using sex and/or drugs to salve that emotional wound.
  
• There's the institutional homophobia, which denies us access to institutions (like churches and marriage) that traditionally have encouraged permanent, monogamous relationships, and also feeds the internalized homophobia.
  
• There's the overall culture among out gay men that encourages lots of sex, open relationships, etc.
  
• And then there's the nature of men generally, who are driven to spread their seed far and wide as a matter of genetic fitness.
  

Now, I've observed changes in all of those categories (although obviously not the last one) over the 20+ years I've been around the gay community. Life is immeasurably better for young kids in school, which in many cases is leading them to come out at younger ages and have a more "normal" teenage experience. Even if I'd recognized my homosexuality as a teenager, I never would have dreamed of doing anything about it back in the '80s.

And obviously, pretty much everywhere in the Western world, gay men are much more accepted than we were 20 years ago. Things are immeasurably better than they were back when I first came out, even in pretty conservative parts of the US.

The combination of those two has the effect of reducing internalized homophobia. There are support structures in place that simply did not exist. Families are much more supportive.

And, much to the chagrin of guys on this site, gay culture has changed. Part of that is the AIDS crisis. Part of that is gay men themselves who want a more "normal" life and see it within their reach. The bathhouse is no longer an experience commonly shared by just about every gay man. Back in the day, random bareback sex was the norm in the community. Now we're a subculture.

That's not to say we're all turning into gay Republicans (although there's a certain amount of hypocrisy who look down their nose at guys like us even as they sneak off on Craigslist hookups). But the culture has changed, and to some degree, most of the guys here (and I include myself) are throwbacks to an earlier era.

Ultimately, I think this will result in a healthier community (although given the rate we're assimilating, I think we're losing the distinctly gay community, which I regret).

Honestly, much as I enjoy many of the things that we celebrate here, the barebacking, the anonymous sex, the promiscuity, the fetishes, and even, perhaps, the drug use (I personally have really come to enjoy having a secret double life that would shock the hell out of my friends, co-workers and family), I have to recognize that those activities are risky and unhealthy, both for myself and for others. And perhaps that's part of the draw.

But I think we should be getting into them with our eyes open. And also understand that they will, as time goes on, cut us off both from society in general, but also from the mainstream of gay culture too.

[rawTOP]

My concern here is that the management has made the quite reasonable decision to confine discussion of drugs to that forum (which can be individually blocked by username), on the grounds that we're acting out of an abundance of caution to make sure no-one who is in recovery is triggered. I don't know exactly where that line is, but trust the judgment of the mods.

The negative effects of drug use can be discussed outside the sub-forum specified for discussion of PNP. Your mention of triggers for recovering addicts is a good way to define what's allowed outside the sub-forum and what's not. A discussion that reinforces their decision to stay sober is always OK.

[TigerMilner]

The negative effects of drug use can be discussed outside the sub-forum specified for discussion of PNP. Your mention of triggers for recovering addicts is a good way to define what's allowed outside the sub-forum and what's not. A discussion that reinforces their decision to stay sober is always OK.

I really like how you think RT. I have had my issues with depression, obsession, and addiction. Sometimes I have wondered whether the "all you can eat" approach to risky sexual behaviors is part of it all. I have to acknowledge that it is. I have been in and out of 12 step programs for 20 years and have done a few stints in rehabs and detoxes. In fact, I just recently did one in Ft Lauderdale and now have 23 clean. I was clean for nearly 4 years when I tested positive last year. That made me give up. I no longer cared about being clean. I had a license to use anything I could to make me feel better. I binged, which is my usual way of doing things. Until last month, exstacy was as bad as it got, but when I found myself using meth again, I woke up to reality. I didn't want to go down that road again. Fortunately for me, I still had a support network in place in Narcotics Anonymous and I was welcomed back. I have a group of guys, all straight, who truly care about me and know nearly all my most intimate and decadent secrets. I don't get into specifics about sexual positions or details that are inappropriate with them, but I do have a former sponsor who is gay who I can tell anything too. He even knows about my videos and blog. He does not approve, but he is there for me if I need someone to unload on. I do recommend NA over the other 12 step programs because it is based on the same 12 step model, but without the Big Book rhetoric which I find old fashioned, and a bit out of date. It is more modern and up to date and does not have the "christian" basis that Mountain Man mentioned. I just have to always make sure that my Higher Power is not a man. I have been in that situation a few times. And i easily could be again. I think that is why I let myself adopt the goal of being a sexual adventurer, in order to avoid the intimacy, and ultimately the pain, of being in love.

That is what I would like to hear about if I were attending your workshop, Being addicted to whatever makes me feel better, love, sex, food, drugs, shopping, etc. It's all about dopamine. Can you be addicted to cum? It does make me feel better.

I wonder if I should be sharing this information here? What the fuck.

[neg4poz]

"acceptance IS the answer to ALL of our problems"

you are not a drug addict because your a sex pig - you may have turned to drugs because you havent ACCEPTED that you are a sex pig - you may very well have a sex addiction as well - but the ADDICTION component is SEPERATE from your sexual orientation and sexual preferences - you are NOT a sex addict because u r gay or bi or straight - or because you like pig sex - you are a sex addict because you have a genetic marker that makes you act on these things to the extent that it makes your life unmanagable... being a sex pig is NOT a problem - u need to embrace who u truly are and accept it - exercising pig sex practices when its not appropriate - when its addictive behavior that has negative results is the issue that needs to be address -

same goes for drug addiction - you are NOT a drug addict because you use drugs - millions if not billions of people use drugs who are not addicted - you are a drug addict because you have a genetic marker that drives you to use when its not appropriate and when it makes your life unmanagable - again you must ACCEPT who you are and EMBRACE it - only then can you move on to recovery...

only when you truly OWN who you are - exactly who u r - which is exactly who you are supposed to be - can you address the issues that prevent you from being ALL YOU CAN BE - and address the issues that keep you from being HAPPY -

"ACCEPTANCE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS"

[GermanFucker]

The negative effects of drug use can be discussed outside the sub-forum specified for discussion of PNP. Your mention of triggers for recovering addicts is a good way to define what's allowed outside the sub-forum and what's not. A discussion that reinforces their decision to stay sober is always OK.

Good definition, totally agree.