What porn business advice would you give to rawTOP?

[rawTOP]

Sometimes people like me get stuck doing what we do because it's what we've always done and it's worked for us in the past. But business climates change - especially in the porn world. This thread is here because my revenues are down slightly - and it's been like that for a few months now. I'm just wondering what you guys would advise in terms of things to change (or not change) in my business. First, let me give you some of what I know, and my thinking at the moment.

First and foremost this site is important to me. Community is my future. I know that. You guys are great. That's something that's not going to change. If anything I need to figure out how to enhance it. For example I'd like to make this site into more of a hookup site, but that's far from simple or inexpensive. But what I'm really getting at here is the porn side of my business since that brings in revenue that supports sites like this one.

One mistake I know I made was not starting a tube site YEARS ago. I was dumb. I know that. If I had started back then I'd be pretty big right now, but I didn't do it. I have a tube site now - Raunchy Fuckers - but it doesn't have nearly as much traffic as it would if I had started it years ago. Lesson learned. Growing that tube site is a priority for me, though it's harder now than it would have been even a year or two ago.

Raunchy Fuckers is an extension of this site - it's got a similar personality and I encourage you guys to post on it. I've been thinking of starting up one or two "scraper tubes" - like M@acho Moe. (That name is banned here because the site has a history of having pirated porn on it - hence the @ in the name). Tube sites like that don't host their own video - they just show tube clips from bigger tube sites. They were considered "possibly illegal" until recent court cases clarified things (which is one reason I didn't start one). Now it's clear that if content is scraped the entire site needs to be automated. You can't mix automation and moderation. Hence Raunchy Fuckers will be the moderated tube site and I'll have one or two others that are automated - you won't be able to upload to the scraper tubes that I launch, etc. Getting traffic to those tube sites will be difficult, but I'm hoping they can find some traction.

My biggest uncertainties are about porn blogging. "Back in the day" you'd hand-craft a porn blog post with care and people liked that and bought what you recommended (even the stuff you said was crap). Now with Tumblr you've got "micro-blogging". There's far less care put into each post. Quantity seems to be winning out over quality.

So one of my questions is big site with tons of content, or smaller site with less content, but more editing? In other words - should I continue to put a lot of effort into my porn blogs? Admittedly, I've been neglecting them recently, but HungLatinDom is helping me fix that.

I should mention that to try out the "big site with tons of content" idea I've launched HotMalePix.com - an image site that has over 150,000 images on it and it's growing by about 1,000 images a day. The challenge is getting it noticed.

I mentioned Tumblr. I've got a Tumblr blog, but the problem is 1) it's not a great idea to invest a lot of time and money into someone else's platform - Tumblr has already closed down my blogs once - that's not the best business strategy, and 2) Tumblr doesn't like people to make money off their blogs. I can link from my Tumblr blog to one of my porn blogs, but even that has gotten difficult lately since you can't change "source" when you reblog something. So I'm ambivalent about Tumblr. There's a lot of potential customers/fans/members there, but going it's also sort of risky for someone like me to be on Tumblr since they could close my blog tomorrow and I'd have to start over.

So next question is how important do you guys think it is for me to be on Tumblr in a major way?

Then there's the whole social thing - Twitter, Facebook, Google+. Taking Twitter first - I put a lot of time into Twitter and probably don't see a big monetary return off it. It's good branding and over time gets more people to think about things like rawTOP and Breeding Zone, but it's not about making money in the short term. My big issue is not that I don't want to do Twitter, but that it takes time away from things like launching new tube sites.

So next question is should I continue to do a lot on Twitter or spend that time on things like new tube sites?

Facebook and Google+ can't have anything more than PG / PG-13 content. Doing a lot with them means focusing on "safe for work" type content - which isn't my core business. I know those are not a great place for me to spend my time.

But at the end of the day what I really want to know is how have your (and your friends') porn consuming habits changed and what lessons should I be learning from those changes? More tubes and less blogs? More quantity, less quality?

Or should I be learning that people don't pay for porn any more and I need to get away from being so dependent on porn? I'm bugging my boyfriend to help me get a t-shirt business off the ground this summer. And once that's going I'll probably add lube to the mix since I know of some (pretty decent) lube I can sell under my own brand. And of course, if I'm doing t-shirts then doing a hanky for barebackers who like to "flag" is simple enough.

Are there other things I should be thinking about? If you were in my shoes what would you do differently? (Big strategy - not "you need to get the chat feature back on Breeding Zone".)

[Belfast-Bottom]

This is a personal view.

I consume porn, but I can't understand how many studios manage to make it PAY. There is so much FREE porn out there on Tumblr and tube sites which deliver FREE amateur clips or pirated commercial ones, that it wouldn't occur to me to PAY for porn. TIM & Machofucker are the BB brand leaders in my eyes and I suppose I would consider paying for exceptional vids there ( a particular star or scenario that gets me hot ).

I've had a brief look at HotMalePix and while I think the idea of categories is a good one, I can't see an obvious advantage over Tumblr - where I can surf thousands of pics and discover other hot blogs directly from each picture's source. One of the hot things about Tumblr is the captions which give an insight into the mind and sexual style of the poster.

I think that a range of RawTop T shirts, hankies, key rings, mugs etc, is good as advertising, but on a planet where most gay men face homophobia regularly, I can't see a BIG market of gay men who are not only happy to advertise their homosexuality in public, but also their passion for unprotected sex. You could be left with a lot of merchandise on your shelves.

In my experience most people are unwilling to pay for what they can get for free. I think piracy of images and videos is the major obstacle facing porn producers for the foreseeable future.

What I am prepared to PAY for on the net is those features which dating/hook up sites reserve for paying members - usually ADULT pictures on profiles or larger images on those profiles. I think Recon and BBRT probably have the balance right. The balancing act is offering sufficient goodies to FREE members to attract newcomers and keep them coming back, whilst holding something in reserve which serious users are willing to pay for.

Best of luck!!

[Belfast-Bottom]

Actually, having looked at hotmalepix in more depth, I can see TWO advantages over Tumblr. The fact that one can search for a particular porn star and the slideshow feature which displays the same models in a variety of poses are definite plus points! I'm sure I will visit regularly

[kinkygradstudent]

I wonder if crowdfunding would work for porn the way other independent media have been using it... maybe have people pay for what they'd like to see created on the front end, rather than trying to recoup the costs by selling the rights to view it after it's been made...

[rawTOP]

Actually, having looked at hotmalepix in more depth, I can see TWO advantages over Tumblr. The fact that one can search for a particular porn star and the slideshow feature which displays the same models in a variety of poses are definite plus points! I'm sure I will visit regularly

Since you talked so much about HotMalePix - let me explain a little... There are two sections of it…

The first section at the top which are images scraped from Tumblr (in the future it may include images from other sources). There are no categories in this section - it's random. I didn't include the comments because so many of the comments are spammy. I mean comments are great when they're good, but I didn't want to include spam on the site (links to less reputable sites, etc.)

The second section is everything below the first section - that's all the sponsor content I get for the sites I promote (and the ones I don't promote). That has as much detail as I've given it. It's not fully automated at this point - it's one of the long list of things I have to work on. When I have it fully automated it will update regularly. At the moment it's rather static.

But yes, "who would pay for porn?" is the big question right now in porn. A lot of producers are hurting, others are cutting back. A few are doing well in part because they live within their means.

As far as clothing items - Nasty Pig is somewhat of my role model - they're doing quite well right now. But they're largely things like jockstraps, which people can wear without others knowing - to get to your point. I think the key is to have some products which are "subtle".

[TigerMilner]

Ive wondered the same thing. I've heard of a site similar to Kickstarter or Indiegogo that promotes and funds porn projects. I don't know anyone who has done it. I think it would be great to get an influx of new talent and new ideas rather than the formula porn major producers are forced to crank out to keep up with membership sites demands.

I wonder if crowdfunding would work for porn the way other independent media have been using it... maybe have people pay for what they'd like to see created on the front end, rather than trying to recoup the costs by selling the rights to view it after it's been made...

[TigerMilner]

"Stealth" brand condoms with holes in them.

[GermanFucker]

Just my two eurocents:

Blogs and Tube Sites are mature markets. Generally speaking: Many of the guys who started blogs 10 years ago either went corporate and now serve as some kind of gossip dispensary or now stay in contact with their friends via facebook. Same goes for porn: Blogs are great as a "cheap" tool to promote existing content, but if you want a blog to succeed as a traditional blog it has to have its distinct personality as a main selling point. You said it yourself: Otherwise microblogging like Tumblr serves up cheap visual thrills as well.

Tube sites are great if someone tells me "hey check out that pornstar". They just don't involve one emotionally and make me want to spend money. So as I see it the business model relies on advertising, which is never future-proof in an already overcrowded market.

When I watch porn I either go for high-quality stuff with beautiful guys (the likes of Sean Cody, Chaosmen etc.) or true amateur stuff. I don't see a point in paying for "normal" guys having sex (like it was the case with HDK ten years ago) if I can either see them for free on a cam site, which is much more real and therefore interesting, or fuck them myself. So I believe the "middle of the road" is indeed eroding.

As always, it's about the value proposition. If you want your sites to be a hit, you have to offer something fresh that doesn't exist yet and make a personal connection with the user. I'm always amazed how much money some guys spend on Cam4. So it's about the interactive experience with other "normal" guys and lowering the threshold between pros and just eager amateurs.

That can mean something totally new, I'm sure an interactive site that combines the functionalities of Grindr, Twitter and Cam4 would be a huge hit.

Or it can just be better integrating existing platforms, like Facebook took blogging and messenging and sold it as something new. I think you are on the right track when you say you want to be community-focused.

One caveat however. Bareback is the new mainstream. There is no denying that. But breedingzone isn't. Many of the most prolific posters are here because of the backroom forums. HIV fetishism will always be a niche, whereas fucking without rubbers is the most normal thing in the world. So you have to ask yourself which market you want to serve, how broad you want your audience to be.

[rawTOP]

When I watch porn I either go for high-quality stuff with beautiful guys (the likes of Sean Cody, Chaosmen etc.) or true amateur stuff. I don't see a point in paying for "normal" guys having sex (like it was the case with HDK ten years ago) if I can either see them for free on a cam site, which is much more real and therefore interesting, or fuck them myself. So I believe the "middle of the road" is indeed eroding.

I came to this conclusion as well - a couple years ago. Then got busy with renovating a house and didn't really implement a strategy basd on it.

As always, it's about the value proposition. If you want your sites to be a hit, you have to offer something fresh that doesn't exist yet and make a personal connection with the user. I'm always amazed how much money some guys spend on Cam4. So it's about the interactive experience with other "normal" guys and lowering the threshold between pros and just eager amateurs.

That can mean something totally new, I'm sure an interactive site that combines the functionalities of Grindr, Twitter and Cam4 would be a huge hit.

Or it can just be better integrating existing platforms, like Facebook took blogging and messenging and sold it as something new. I think you are on the right track when you say you want to be community-focused.

That's all quite true, but also quite expensive to implement. And then there's the risk that it won't work. I don't have a few hundred thousand laying around to implement what you're talking about and honestly I also don't understand the cam market as I don't cam myself, so I don't trust myself to do it right.

One caveat however. Bareback is the new mainstream. There is no denying that. But breedingzone isn't. Many of the most prolific posters are here because of the backroom forums. HIV fetishism will always be a niche, whereas fucking without rubbers is the most normal thing in the world. So you have to ask yourself which market you want to serve, how broad you want your audience to be.

Thanks for reminding me - I wanted to start making it so people didn't see the backroom or the groups section by default and they'd have to pay a nominal fee to get access. I really wanted to avoid having a paid hookup site - I wanted to be more like Adam4Adam than Manhunt. But if there aren't 3rd party sales, then that's impossible.

All in all good comments though...

[GermanFucker]

That's all quite true, but also quite expensive to implement. And then there's the risk that it won't work. I don't have a few hundred thousand laying around to implement what you're talking about and honestly I also don't understand the cam market as I don't cam myself, so I don't trust myself to do it right.

Take it as philosophical meanderings, I'm really not a specialist myself, either. But personally I think that HTML5 and with it the ability to directly access videos, webcams, location data and navigation is the future. But it agree that this probably will lead to a technological arms race between internet sex companies.

So again, the middle-sized players are probably gonna get squeezed between the big businesses and individuals that just use somebody else's infrastructure.

Thanks for reminding me - I wanted to start making it so people didn't see the backroom or the groups section by default and they'd have to pay a nominal fee to get access. I really wanted to avoid having a paid hookup site - I wanted to be more like Adam4Adam than Manhunt. But if there aren't 3rd party sales, then that's impossible.

I think this community as it is now works. So I wouldn't say "change the formula". I just don't think that this is the kind of community one could exponentially grow and take mainstream. I think that a truly mainstream bareback offering - and I think now is the time that is possible - has to be light(er) and fun.

But there is always a market for the heavy, raunchy stuff if you focus on it. As many successful prostitutes would agree: People will pay for stuff they don't get at home.

[rawTOP]

I think this community as it is now works. So I wouldn't say "change the formula". I just don't think that this is the kind of community one could exponentially grow and take mainstream. I think that a truly mainstream bareback offering - and I think now is the time that is possible - has to be light(er) and fun.

But there is always a market for the heavy, raunchy stuff if you focus on it. As many successful prostitutes would agree: People will pay for stuff they don't get at home.

Funny you should contrast "lighter and fun" with "heavy, raunchy". I went to Fire Island a couple weeks ago and a woman I'd never met before told me I "have a strong energy". I've always been pretty serious - even as a kid. Light and fun are not words people would use to describe me.

JUB has "light and fun" covered pretty well. But despite that their traffic has been going down.

BUT your comments about this site make me think that it may not be good to turn this site into a hookup site. It may be better to start fresh. In a way this site has baggage that shouldn't be taken into a more general site - which I think is your point.

I was half asleep when I responded to you before, but I've got a lot of thinking to do. Your comment that tubes are a mature market has hit home and is something I'll keep in the front of my mind. Yes, I need tubes, but I need to think what comes next.

[coyotesmiles]

Why is there no poz category on Raunchy Fuckers?

[rawTOP]

Why is there no poz category on Raunchy Fuckers?

I don't know what you mean. And how is that related to this discussion?

[Belfast-Bottom]

On the merchandise front, I agree that subtlety or "home use" is the key. I think a RawTop or bareback branded lube could become a desirable fetish item quite quickly. It stays in your home ( so no public exposure ) and leaving it on your bedside table before a date would flag your interest in bareback before fucking - an ice breaker/invitation/conversation starter. I'm not aware of a BB branded lube at the moment, so you could get in at the start.

A subtle BB hanky might sell well. There has been suggestion that dark blue/navy with white polka dots is the BB hanky. The dark blue represents fucking and the white dots are spunk. The advantage of such a hanky is subtlety. You can wear it in bars and in public without attracting adverse comment - only the "insiders" know the meaning, plus it has deniability as "it's just a hanky" if challenged on it.

[coyotesmiles]

Seriously?

You want to know how to capture a greater revenue stream or whatever and this is not obvious?

Do you not monitor your own site?

People are demanding, wanting, expressing- etc. That there be (in no particular order)

-more videos with internal cum shots and no pulling out

-more videos with poz talk

-more videos that are obviously (not pretend or fantasy - but really actually so) poz tops fucking neg bottoms.

-more and I'm not listing it because I want to go watch porn

If you want, I'd be more than happy to literally operationalize all the forum talk and turn it into say a graph or something just to settle conclusively that the crux of your question lies on these axes.

*People want to be stimulated, they don't want to see the same old boring shit over and over again. NOBODY right now is at all capitalizing on poz interest. ******** is super lame in that they just slap "toxic" on whatever, even old videos that are blatantly being recycled. Barebackbastards has poz this and poz that, but actually they've got pretty much zero apparently real poz, pozzing, poz talk videos.

*Yeah it's a risk, yeah you're increasing your visibility on a very contentious topic, but ask yourself, if you're not capturing the revenue stream you'd like, do you want to just scoot along playing as safe as safe can be, or do you want to actually take the vast amount of user feedback, expressed wishes, etc, and actually turn around and supply that demand? That's all economics is, supply and demand. I'd even be willing to wager you that the demand for poz related porn (real and obvious) is such that if you took the risk of capitalizing on the expressed interest, the gain would far outweigh the loss.

*People are obviously very interested in this because, if you're reading your own forums, there are entire threads where guys are saying the following:

"Hey I found a hot poz video on XTube"

"Cool"

"Uh...removed?"

"Hey, check out this hot audio video"

"Uh...removed?"

"I found this-"

"Removed"

Xtube had an awesome idea in terms of linking amature porn to pretty much the entire world, however, they're obviously imposing pretty arbitrary bullshit standards because, actually, there are a few "poz" videos (usually the audio is poor quality and hard to hear) in which a poz top is obviously cumming in, yes, sometimes a neg bottom. I've seen chatter across the web that Xtube is going to lose it's revenue stream because it's doing shitty stuff like that.

Also, I'd totally suggest that you implement micropayment systems for the videos such that people, and you could try starting with an experimental donation type system to see how folks react, but here's the deal.

Why the fuck should anyone pay a large sum, and I'd say anything over $1 is actually a large sum, for the privilege of just watching something that they may or may not even like? If they really like the video they can either pay again or maybe they might even pay to own...these days, I pretty much refuse to pay up front for any porn that I've not seen once through because there is so much bullshit tricks in the industry, but porn is, I can totally argue well, as much the pinnacle of art as anything is...not going to go there right now.

I have fucking paid for a bunch of shitty ass videos on Xtube that were labelled bareback or breeding or whatever, and then...huh? Is that a fucking condom? What the fuck? Or...umm...where is the breeding? I didn't even see anything...I have better things to do with my time then go back to Xtube and confront them with this bullshit but it does piss me off greatly that I've spent a significant chunk of money on a bunch of super shitty Xtube videos.

I just say this because if you treat your customers with respect rather than simply trying to squeeze as much money as possible from them, I think that you will find Raunchy Fuckers capturing an ever increasing revenue stream.

The most satisfying, by which I mean that in which I felt that I paid a fair price for what I got, videos on Xtube were some okay to decent (the camera quality was much poorer than most of other pay to view Xtube videos, also, I have watched so much porn it is not even fucking funny so by now, if it's not fucking golden I'm like, turn that shit off) videos THAT ONLY CHARGE LESS THAN A DOLLAR FOR TEN OR MORE MINUTES.

This is actually a huge issue. On Xtube there are assholes that are charging incredibly steep prices for short little videos that have catchy tags or catchy titles or catchy previews, but thus far, all of them actually suck ass when I actually pay and watch them. The exception being the one I cited above (again, I'm more than happy to actually formally crunch all this shit in a numeric manner for you if you're so interested because, hey, I'm sick and tired of shitty ass porn so if this gets me some better fucking porn- yay).

Anyway, I could go on and on about this but I'm a little confused right now because I don't understand how it is that you have this awesome fucking site that is full of awesome users who are here day in and day out saying what they want...but not actually getting it, and then you're like...

What?

Poz category?

What's that got to do with this?

Huh?

p.s. I apologize for being abrasive. I have zero patience right now, and I tip my hat to you for doing what you've done so far and whatever, but again, I'm going to say, if you want to really capture a strong portion of the revenue stream related to porn, you've got to differentiate yourself from your competitors, you've got to do it in a way that respects your customers, and you've got -

eh fuck it. I'm going back to watching porn.