Training helpline volunteers

[bearbandit]

In three weeks' time I've got a ninety minute training session to talk about barebacking to London Lesbian and Gay Switchboard and people from other sex-related helplines in London. I intend talking for about half the time then taking questions from the floor (a dangerous tactic, but it's worked for me in the past - even though I say it myself I can do a good job of putting over edgy subjects). I've already asked several guys here if I can quote parts of their messages for this: I want to present a "well, the guys I know think..." session rather than an "I think..." session. So what would YOU want me to be saying to these charity workers?

I was a member of LLGS for most of the eighties and their Training guy is a dear friend of mine: he couldn't find anyone closer to London who he trusted to do a training session who'd publically admit to barebacking, such is the politically correct disapproval. But then I was the one (oh my fucking gods!) thirty years ago who turn up to business meeting on a Sunday, not having been home to change from the night before and covered in interestingly acquired bruises...

I'm working on the outline of my presentation now - any help you guys come up with, things you want sexual health advisors to hear, gratefully received... Confidentiality: if I quote you, you'd be "a guy I know" or "another guy I was talking to": not even your screen names would be mentioned. The few quotes guys have said I can use I can't even remember who said what because I've not included the names in the text file and my memory is shit!

Thank you in advance...

Steve

Edited October 31, 2013 by bearbandit
Spelling (as usual)

[TigerMilner]

Let them know that barebacking is not so much a rebellion as a call to nature. As much as I hate having hiv and any other STI i have gotten over the past 25 years, it has all been worth it and I would do it again.

[wood]

Let them know that barebacking is not so much a rebellion as a call to nature. As much as I hate having hiv and any other STI i have gotten over the past 25 years, it has all been worth it and I would do it again.

Having worked in public health you cant go that far...

I really with PrEP was available in the UK, because that would be a great way to talk about reducing risk, but alas its not. I would however bring up any studies you can find about PrEP, and let people know about them.

Because he will be giving out advice that will be used in a widespread setting, its really not responsible to just say, sure do it, ask status try and sort, but its okay. Bearbandit, I would simply tell people that being realistic is OKAY, but people still need to protect themselves in a responsible manner. For some people that may mean condoms, for some that may mean PrEP one day, for others that may mean a trusted fuck buddy situation where they only fuck each other raw, etc, etc. However IMO the #1 most important thing is communication. People need to talk about status and get tested. People cant be afraid to get tested after a bareback experience because that can easily lead to more people getting infected.

[GermanFucker]

My 2 eurocent:

- Barebacking is an everyday reality, not a rare transgression.

- The young generation hasn't seen the ravages of AIDS, scare tactics are lost on them.

- It shouldn't be treated with moral outrage.

- Most barebacking isn't called "barebacking", rather "I forgot the condom because I was drunk".

- Because the end result is the same, one should make responsible, sober decisions.

- Condoms are scientifically proven to work, they save one a lot of hassle

- However, that doesn't mean that not using condoms is insane or that there aren't valid reasons for that.

- Poz guys who have sex with poz guys only have to fear "minor" diseases.

- Others have unprotected sex with people they trust.

- For some it has to do with a drug or alcohol problem.

- Again others make conscious choices to take a certain risk, sometimes trying to minimize that.

- For some the risk assessments or expectations what it means to be poz are unrealistic because of a lack of knowledge.

- When councelling barebackers its important to ask "where they come from" and respond accordingly, i.e. instead of villifying or simply promoting condoms, rather ask oneself how to best help the person at the other end of the line, be it by offering knowledge or helping one make sense of one's behaviour, or simply encouraging a poz guy to get tested for other STDs regularly because those can be more of a problem if you already have HIV.

PS: I found BBC's "Unsafe Sex in the City" to be an interesting watch, they might still have it on their website, but I think most episodes should be available around the net (youtube etc.), if you do a video search with Google (Bing etc.).

Edited November 1, 2013 by GermanFucker

[bearbandit]

Interesting ideas, guys... Please keep them coming.

I'm approaching this from the angle of PrEP (even if we don't have it yet), serosorting, test and treat, and treatment as protection.

Since I'm training charity volunteers, and presenting as an individual, rather than a representative of the charity I'm involved with, I think I can get away with Tiger's comment ("some guys see it as...") My job isn't so much to direct as to illuminate, which means I'm going to end up saying some things that they're going to find pretty unacceptable. Thirty years ago I pushed for Switchboard to specifically mention BDSM in its constitution as another aspect of human sexuality (the right-on lot hated me for that!). On the other hand, I'm going to be clear that in my view the most cautious guy involved sets the agenda.

Thank you for the ideas - I'm just putting the bones of the evening together right now and hope more of you will help with a little more meat

[NiceHard1]

I think that many HIV educators/workers who are not "out in the trenches" having sex with other men do not understand the reality of needs and desires that shape the actions of gay men. Many think that we solved this years ago telling guys to just use condoms, and don't understand why that message has not worked. Thus, I think the first important message is to ask HIV workers to not to be judgmental and not suggest that guys are crazy for not using condoms. Suggest that workers should be open to understanding that it is not as simple as that.

A big motivator to bareback is a subject that most men (gay or straight) don't want to bring up: Its about the erection! Many guys after hitting 30 (sometimes even younger) have a hard time staying hard using rubbers. One could argue that guys who bottom who are at the most risk could insist that tops wear condoms - but they get the erection issue too. They know that many guys who they might like to get fucked by can't do it with a rubber. Requiring tops to use a condom may mean not getting fucked. Many guys are not trying to become poz - they are just trying to be sexual, and learn that barebacking is sometimes the only way to do it.

Let guys know that though being poz is no longer the end of the world, it is still nice to stay neg if possible. It is certainly fine to continue to promote the idea that condoms are an effective way to prevent HIV transmission, but if its not going to work for a guy, then don't continue to harp only that line, but be open to talking about alternative harm reduction strategies for guys who want to choose to bareback

Harm Reduction Ideas

- Get tested regularly for both HIV and other STIs

- Consider meds like viagra to help stay hard if you want to use condoms

- Avoid pnp/drug use - it can impair your judgement and choices

- Consider PrEP (If you're open to becoming poz and eventually going on HIV meds, why not go on HIV meds now, and perhaps prevent HIV)

- Serosorting for HIV neg guys only is not an effective strategy ("Neg" may not always be neg; "poz" not always a high risk)

-Topping is less risk than bottoming

-Listen to your instinct. If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. Its OK to say no, even after you're naked.

-Ask a neg partner: how often do you get tested? When was your last test? (long time ago? more risk)

-As a neg top: are you exclusive top? (less risk if he never bottoms)

-Ask a poz partner: are you taking meds? (not on meds, higher risk)

-Ask a poz partner: how often do you get HIV lab work? What is your viral load?

(Don't put words in his mouth by asking if he's undetectable, ask what viral load is.. but if he is undetectable - less risk)

-Pulling out before cumming may be less risk, but not always. Pre-cum can transmit HIV, especially if high viral load guy

-Are you really really comfortable with being poz if it happens?

-Do you have insurance or live in a state with good public health?

-Suggest having negative guys read the information for guys who have just seroconverted NOW - while still neg - to see how they feel about if if it happens.

Check out www.projectinform.org for good info for newly converted guys.

Hope these ideas can help your discussion, and be helpful for other guys too

Edited November 2, 2013 by NiceHard1

[fillmyholeftl]

I think that many HIV educators/workers who are not "out in the trenches" having sex with other men do not understand the reality of needs and desires that shape the actions of gay men. Many think that we solved this years ago telling guys to just use condoms, and don't understand why that message has not worked. Thus, I think the first important message is to ask HIV workers to not to be judgmental and not suggest that guys are crazy for not using condoms. Suggest that workers should be open to understanding that it is not as simple as that.

A big motivator to bareback is a subject that most men (gay or straight) don't want to bring up: Its about the erection! Many guys after hitting 30 (sometimes even younger) have a hard time staying hard using rubbers. One could argue that guys who bottom who are at the most risk could insist that tops wear condoms - but they get the erection issue too. They know that many guys who they might like to get fucked by can't do it with a rubber. Requiring tops to use a condom may mean not getting fucked. Many guys are not trying to become poz - they are just trying to be sexual, and learn that barebacking is sometimes the only way to do it.

Let guys know that though being poz is no longer the end of the world, it is still nice to stay neg if possible. It is certainly fine to continue to promote the idea that condoms are an effective way to prevent HIV transmission, but if its not going to work for a guy, then don't continue to harp only that line, but be open to talking about alternative harm reduction strategies for guys who want to choose to bareback

Harm Reduction Ideas

- Get tested regularly for both HIV and other STIs

- Consider PrEP (If you're open to becoming poz and eventually going on HIV meds, why not go on HIV meds now, and perhaps prevent HIV)

- Serosorting for HIV neg guys only is not an effective strategy ("Neg" may not always be neg; "poz" not always a high risk)

-Topping is less risk than bottoming

-Listen to your instinct. If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. Its OK to say no, even after you're naked.

-Ask a neg partner: how often do you get tested? When was your last test? (long time ago? more risk)

-As a neg top: are you exclusive top? (less risk if he never bottoms)

-Ask a poz partner: are you taking meds? (not on meds, higher risk)

-Ask a poz partner: how often do you get HIV lab work? What is your viral load?

(Don't put words in his mouth by asking if he's undetectable, ask what viral load is.. but if he is undetectable - less risk)

-Pulling out before cumming may be less risk, but not always. Pre-cum can transmit HIV, especially if high viral load guy

-Are you really really comfortable with being poz if it happens?

-Do you have insurance or live in a state with good public health?

-Suggest having negative guys read the information for guys who have just seroconverted NOW - while still neg - and see how you feel about the things that it tells you. Check out www.projectinform.org for good info for newly converted guys.

Hope these ideas can help your discussion, and be helpful for other guys too

that's a great posting. you are "right on" with this. I am a HIV tester/counselor & facilitate an HIV education program. I adhere to the ideas & opinions you post.. I am non-judgemental. It's my job to educate, not tell someone what to do. They should take the knowledge we provide & decide for themselves the proper behavior for themselves. Oh BTW... always been a "fan" of yours !

[bearbandit]

Great stuff... Please keep the ideas coming. The more of you that comment the broader the ideas base and therefore the more authority I can speak with. Many thanks!

[TattPig]

This has little to offer by way of information, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I don't know what the other sex-related hotlines are--possibly straight-focused?

Anyway, if you get pushback and people start clutching their pearls at the mention of gay men barebacking, I think it's important to note that straight people have bare sex far more than gay men do. But nobody gets their knickers a in a twist about that. My amateur psychology take on it is that people assume that sperm forms an important function in straight sex (making babies), while it's completely extraneous in gay sex. As such, the bar is set higher for us because there is a lower value put on the experience (and the substance). (I also think gay men fetishise it more than straight people because straight people just take bare sex as a given.)

A few numbers...Google the following terms (use the quotation marks) and look at the results:

"heterosexual barebacking" 414 results

"homosexual barebacking" 23,800

"straight barebacking" 2,830

"gay barebacking" 719,000 !

Obviously that's not a scientific survey, but the numbers are interesting.

People aren't even talking about straight people barebacking. It's a double standard.

*End rant*

[bearbandit]

Thanks for the rant Tattpig - with you all the way. There was a blog recently (can't remember who wrote it) "Your mother liked it bareback" - hell, my mother stealthed my father: I'm here because of pinholes in condoms!

The presentation is primarily aimed at gay helplines, so given that barebacking is in PC terms way beyond the seven deadly sins I expect a lot of pearl clutching - while knowing that a substantial number of male volunteers will know the address of this this site, and be very studious about clearing out their internet history!

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

I think we have to recognize the simplistic "wrap it up" thinking... That thinking fails to recognize sex is a complex human interaction. It reaches levels of emotion many fail to acknowledge.. Even in casual sex. And part of that is the tactile connection skin on skin achieves. Some will tolerate it but few will with every interaction. If every kiss were through a window... And if every hug was fully clothed... We would all feel disconnected. People in the span of humanity have not put barriers to intimate contact. Shoot just consider the freedom when the pill came on the market in the early 60's. That was because bare sex feels best for both participants.

the shock of the bare question should be "what?.... You don't??"

my other perspective is that too many people feel privileged to intrude in others' private behavior. That is sick.

Now all this said, educating about condoms, PrEP, serosorting, semi restricted sex groups, advantage that regular testing, etc is good information to share. Techniques on how to eroticize condom sex also fair...

But the message to volunteers is to inform, not judge.

[wood]

I think we have to recognize the simplistic "wrap it up" thinking... That thinking fails to recognize sex is a complex human interaction. It reaches levels of emotion many fail to acknowledge.. Even in casual sex. And part of that is the tactile connection skin on skin achieves. Some will tolerate it but few will with every interaction. If every kiss were through a window... And if every hug was fully clothed... We would all feel disconnected. People in the span of humanity have not put barriers to intimate contact. Shoot just consider the freedom when the pill came on the market in the early 60's. That was because bare sex feels best for both participants.

the shock of the bare question should be "what?.... You don't??"

my other perspective is that too many people feel privileged to intrude in others' private behavior. That is sick.

Now all this said, educating about condoms, PrEP, serosorting, semi restricted sex groups, advantage that regular testing, etc is good information to share. Techniques on how to eroticize condom sex also fair...

But the message to volunteers is to inform, not judge.

I have worked in public health before, and was at a conference this past week on HIV/STD's. Most counsulors get that the always wrap it up message isnt working, but in many cases they are also limited in how much they can change it. At least in the US, programs usually rely on grant money, and people want proof of what works for grant money.

I could write pages on t his subject, because there are so many issues from both the patient and provider side. I have hope that things are slowly changing away "always wrap it up message" I talked one of the speakers afterwards and privately he told me while ideally it would be great to see people do it all the time, he has little hope any campaign for that would work, and he is excited about stuff like PrEP because it offers an alternative.

[bearbandit]

Thanks for all your input guys. The evening went moderately well; the problem was that the presentation I'd prepared was a bit beyond their understanding of HIV. Fortunately, my mate, the Training Officer, knows me and my style of presentation (we always did do a good double act, except, regrettably, in that one area where it's too damn late now!) well enough that he could cue me as to when to dumb things down a bit. But I have to admit that I despair at the level of knowledge shown by "experts". Still, I've got enough material to put my next beyondpositive column together from (assuming my last row with the editor hasn't seen me removed from the contributors list!)

[PupYiff]

Just to mention as i seen it mention a few times here....

PReP _IS_ available in UK for free from about 7 clinics ATM. They are having a major issue recruiting people on to it so would be great to let anyone you know about it. You can get info about it here:

http://www.proud.mrc.ac.uk/

Its a UK based trial for only 500 people and the closing date to get on trial is mid January. Be quick!

Im on it 'cos whilst i don't really want HIV - i know I'm going to get it with my addiction to hard raw dick up my butt. xD

[bearbandit]

Thanks for posting this!

If I weren't already poz there'd be one less place on the trial even though it would mean four hours travelling to get to the closest trial centre. A shame that the trial centres are all in England, though I assume that they'll accept guys from Wales and Scotland too. This is one trial that must go ahead...

It's taken over a year to get the 335 people they've already got.