Rape- dream or nightmare?

[HMR89]

Hey guys,

I'm a rape victim. I was raped once at 6, then 9 and then 11. I'm against rape and rapists and would actually murder anyone who would even lay a hand on me without my consent. But I'm coming across many stories that people here actually enjoy- rape stories.

Does the idea of having no control and being tortured and scarred for life actually turn you on? Or does it sicken you (like it does me) to the point that you'd actually cringe at how much people here some to enjoy it?

[MexPigMaster]

You've been RAPED a lot!

[bearbandit]

It's a very good question, HMR89. And given the number of guys who believe that a man can't be raped, that it only happens to women and kids, a brave one. I'll start by saying I've been raped twice: once at nineteen and again about ten years later. The way the law stood in the UK at the time, the first time had I gone to the police with a complaint about it, I could have been charged with gross indecency, which was the charge used for all parties involved in such a case because I was below the then age of consent. The second time, after the age of consent was lowered, I could have made a complaint of gross indecency (which carries a much lower sentence tariff than rape does). I didn't bother. In a small way, as a counsellor, I helped set in motion the change of UK law that allows for the charge of rape to be laid against a man who rapes another man, and I have to confess to some pride in my involvement in that.

Rape is an abhorrent act, as are murder and mutilation, yet how many of us even as children played war games, playfully committed pretend war atrocities on our friends? My late partner and I used to talk about our playroom saying "cross the threshhold and suspend disbelief". John was a master of sleight of hand, and had a boy with a number of self-destructive fantasies which he managed to fulfil in a safe manner. He pointed something out to me that I'd never realised: when I was bottoming, my words (I don't like gags) are twisted around: I'd say "no" for "yes, please, more". It didn't take an expert to link this back to the twice that I'd been raped. Since that discussion I've always used the traffic light system of stop-words.

Rape fantasies are, for a lot of guys (women too), a way of making the transition from victim to survivor (indeed the UK organisation for men who have suffered (unwanted) sexual abuse is called SurvivorsUK - its founder took the name from a remark I made when I was working with him). There's no doubt in my mind that rape play is edge-play: get it wrong and you could screw someone's head even further. But at the same time, get it right, and it can be therapeutic, allowing one to face up to demons (figuratively speaking) in a way that's otherwise impossible.

It's the same when I write a rape scene in a story: it's rare for me to write in the third person and it's also rare for me to write about situations that I have no experience of. Why include rape scenes? Probably because they're dramatically necessary, but also because they're therapeutic for me (and I'm a long way from that nineteen year old kid, or even the late twenties kid, but it doesn't mean that I don't carry some of their pain with me still), and because I've come to terms with my own experiences that I can eroticise them. (The series I'm writing in Bugchasing fiction carries two rape scenes, though I cheat in that they're performances for a DVD)

Fifteen years ago I used to edit a couple of porn magazines: in other words I wrote the whole damn magazine using different names. It was the height of condom naziism and as I remember (I shorted out a hard drive and found the back up disk scratched to hell and gone: totally unusable) I only ever once mentioned condoms in words along the lines of "you're adults: you can make your own decisions as to what level of safety you want and need" - and this at a time when the first protease inhibitors were just coming out of trials. My own health was on what seemed like a bottomless slope.

Given the ages at which you were raped, this was child abuse, and I'm not surprised at your reaction. Rape is violence expressed through sexual means: for some of us acting out the fantasy is a huge turn-on, while for others, like you, it's horror. This is going to sound horribly condescending, which I don't mean it to , but have you considered counselling to come to terms with what happened in your childhood. I come from a highly dysfunctional family and see a counsellor every few years as a means of having a mental clear-out. If you haven't tried it, it might be an avenue worth trying, especially given how you say you'd react if it happened again. The first time I went crazy, tearing up the room as much as I was able till I was released, the second I went "rabbit in the headlights" just to get it over faster.

I'd welcome any reply from you: I know how repugnant the idea is and the double think you need to get around it. To the best of my knowledge I was the first person in the UK to write on the subject in the gay press in the UK, which is how I've ended up talking to so many guys about it. If you don't want to reply in public, then PM me. I can't promise easy answers, but I believe I can set you on the road to some answers.

Again I'd likee to commend your courage in raising the issue: you've got guts, mister!

[HMR89]

Yeah and it was horrible. I was just a kid and I remember how horrible it felt.

[HMR89]

It's a very good question, HMR89. And given the number of guys who believe that a man can't be raped, that it only happens to women and kids, a brave one. I'll start by saying I've been raped twice: once at nineteen and again about ten years later. The way the law stood in the UK at the time, the first time had I gone to the police with a complaint about it, I could have been charged with gross indecency, which was the charge used for all parties involved in such a case because I was below the then age of consent. The second time, after the age of consent was lowered, I could have made a complaint of gross indecency (which carries a much lower sentence tariff than rape does). I didn't bother. In a small way, as a counsellor, I helped set in motion the change of UK law that allows for the charge of rape to be laid against a man who rapes another man, and I have to confess to some pride in my involvement in that.

Rape is an abhorrent act, as are murder and mutilation, yet how many of us even as children played war games, playfully committed pretend war atrocities on our friends? My late partner and I used to talk about our playroom saying "cross the threshhold and suspend disbelief". John was a master of sleight of hand, and had a boy with a number of self-destructive fantasies which he managed to fulfil in a safe manner. He pointed something out to me that I'd never realised: when I was bottoming, my words (I don't like gags) are twisted around: I'd say "no" for "yes, please, more". It didn't take an expert to link this back to the twice that I'd been raped. Since that discussion I've always used the traffic light system of stop-words.

Rape fantasies are, for a lot of guys (women too), a way of making the transition from victim to survivor (indeed the UK organisation for men who have suffered (unwanted) sexual abuse is called SurvivorsUK - its founder took the name from a remark I made when I was working with him). There's no doubt in my mind that rape play is edge-play: get it wrong and you could screw someone's head even further. But at the same time, get it right, and it can be therapeutic, allowing one to face up to demons (figuratively speaking) in a way that's otherwise impossible.

It's the same when I write a rape scene in a story: it's rare for me to write in the third person and it's also rare for me to write about situations that I have no experience of. Why include rape scenes? Probably because they're dramatically necessary, but also because they're therapeutic for me (and I'm a long way from that nineteen year old kid, or even the late twenties kid, but it doesn't mean that I don't carry some of their pain with me still), and because I've come to terms with my own experiences that I can eroticise them. (The series I'm writing in Bugchasing fiction carries two rape scenes, though I cheat in that they're performances for a DVD)

Fifteen years ago I used to edit a couple of porn magazines: in other words I wrote the whole damn magazine using different names. It was the height of condom naziism and as I remember (I shorted out a hard drive and found the back up disk scratched to hell and gone: totally unusable) I only ever once mentioned condoms in words along the lines of "you're adults: you can make your own decisions as to what level of safety you want and need" - and this at a time when the first protease inhibitors were just coming out of trials. My own health was on what seemed like a bottomless slope.

Given the ages at which you were raped, this was child abuse, and I'm not surprised at your reaction. Rape is violence expressed through sexual means: for some of us acting out the fantasy is a huge turn-on, while for others, like you, it's horror. This is going to sound horribly condescending, which I don't mean it to , but have you considered counselling to come to terms with what happened in your childhood. I come from a highly dysfunctional family and see a counsellor every few years as a means of having a mental clear-out. If you haven't tried it, it might be an avenue worth trying, especially given how you say you'd react if it happened again. The first time I went crazy, tearing up the room as much as I was able till I was released, the second I went "rabbit in the headlights" just to get it over faster.

I'd welcome any reply from you: I know how repugnant the idea is and the double think you need to get around it. To the best of my knowledge I was the first person in the UK to write on the subject in the gay press in the UK, which is how I've ended up talking to so many guys about it. If you don't want to reply in public, then PM me. I can't promise easy answers, but I believe I can set you on the road to some answers.

Again I'd likee to commend your courage in raising the issue: you've got guts, mister!

Thank you ! I intend on hopefully writing a book on this issue in the near future- once I've got more exposure though. Counselling is something that I have considered but I have healed myself from within over time. I'm much more tolerant and my family's quite dysfunctional too. I've been able to empathize with countless people like myself and while I don't let what happened to me in the past affect me anymore, I do still feel for rape victims and tear up when I think of how others are suffering because of desperate assholes. The only possible thing I may have taken from those incidents is a HORRIBLE temper. I have an EXTREMELY high threshold for pain of any sort and I can endure anything that may come my way.

But then, I read these forums and wonder how one can enjoy something SO CRUEL, you know?

[bearbandit]

Thank you ! I intend on hopefully writing a book on this issue in the near future- once I've got more exposure though. Counselling is something that I have considered but I have healed myself from within over time. I'm much more tolerant and my family's quite dysfunctional too. I've been able to empathize with countless people like myself and while I don't let what happened to me in the past affect me anymore, I do still feel for rape victims and tear up when I think of how others are suffering because of desperate assholes. The only possible thing I may have taken from those incidents is a HORRIBLE temper. I have an EXTREMELY high threshold for pain of any sort and I can endure anything that may come my way.

But then, I read these forums and wonder how one can enjoy something SO CRUEL, you know?

"so cruel" - is that perhaps the child looking out through the man's eyes? Although I list myself as versatile, I'm a lot heavier as a bottom than as a top. Part of that is doubtless due to being out of condition having been ill for the past couple of years. When I top, it's automatic for me too ask if there are any health or psychological issues I should know about. Even something as simple as a single word can be enough to bring a session to an end, and if that's the case I need to know to avoid it, because we're both/all meant to enjoy what's going on. When I was bottoming for John, my late partner, he found it very difficult that I'd be screaming "No, please don't" when what I meant was "For fuck's sake yes!". As you're obviously aware, some of us can take what "should" be painful and enjoy the sensations. When I had my most recent tattoo (a biohazard on my back) I remarked to the tattooist that it only needed one thing to make it perfect: a bottle of poppers.

Years ago I had a doctor who knew me well enough to correct himself mid-consultation "Have you had any unusual pains, ok, any unusual unexpected pains in your balls?" (It turned out that I had a massive E Coli infection in my bladder). Would it count as cruel that John, for a period of a year or so, kept his initials burned onto my chest with his cigars? It hurt like hell, but we both wanted it.

Cruelty is in the eye of the beholder, but as I said in the age of consent thread I believe it's necessary to have one and that although I was capable of sex at eleven or twelve, doesn't mean that I could deal with the consequences, which, to my mind says that I wasn't ready for sex. I have a fuckbuddy who was beaten up by a previous partner and has massive damage to his jaw: a simple pat on the cheek would be cruelty there because of the pain it would cause him.

I can get off on causing and receiving pain that would probably be illegal under the Geneva Convention: it's just the way my head's wired. I can stand back at a party and admire the way the bottom in a torture scene is handling it. But let me catch someone abusing a dog.... The difference is consent, something you didn't give when you were a kid. In terms of stories here, if consent isn't even implicit within the story, I kinda edit it in myself. I know it's fantasy.

[PhoenixGeoff]

Thank you ! I intend on hopefully writing a book on this issue in the near future- once I've got more exposure though. Counselling is something that I have considered but I have healed myself from within over time. I'm much more tolerant and my family's quite dysfunctional too. I've been able to empathize with countless people like myself and while I don't let what happened to me in the past affect me anymore, I do still feel for rape victims and tear up when I think of how others are suffering because of desperate assholes. The only possible thing I may have taken from those incidents is a HORRIBLE temper. I have an EXTREMELY high threshold for pain of any sort and I can endure anything that may come my way.

But then, I read these forums and wonder how one can enjoy something SO CRUEL, you know?

It's probably something that's impossible to explain to someone who's in your position, but perhaps there are a couple of ways that you might gain some understanding.

The first is the appeal of an extreme form of a certain kind of masculinity. Stupid, brutish, violent, animal masculinity. It's the same sort of thing that makes skinheads, bikers or gang members appealing. A kind of exaggerated form of the appeal of soldiers and policemen (a more restrained form of the same sort of masculinity...a quieter form of the implied threat of violence).

The second may be the appeal of flirtation with danger. Having a rape fantasy might be a safe way for someone to explore the thrill of putting himself in danger. The same sort of thrill a skydiver gets if he imagines jumping from a plane without a parachute. He wouldn't actually do it, but he might want to wait until the last possible moment to pull the ripcord.

The third may involve an extreme form of submission. Rape may be considered the ultimate loss of power over oneself.

As you say, the reality of rape is very different from all of these fantasies. And at the risk of having the crew of hyper-submissive bottoms around here vehemently contradict me, I rather doubt that anyone who is posting such fantasies actually wants to be truly raped, with all of the emotional and psychological (not to mention physical) damage that implies, but is rather exploring a side of themselves that is drawn to one or more of those experiences I listed above in a relatively safe environment.

In short, consider it fiction. It makes more sense that way.

And thanks for having the courage to speak up and remind us of the differences between fantasy and reality. And very best wishes for your continued recovery.

[HMR89]

Yes that makes it so much clearer. That's what i wanted to understand though. To be submissive, paradoxically, in the way that "hyper-sensitive botts" want to be, is a choice so it would make sense for one to be turned on by such fantasies. The reality isn't anything like the fantasy though. It's just horrible. Thank you for your support .

[AlwaysOpen]

Could rape fantasies for so many be an excuse- they fantasize about extreme things occurring to them, without them actually being responsible? They would never do XYZ, but in the rape fantasy it is OK- since they cannot consent? While what HMR endured was not fantasy or pleasure- what I think most men hold as a rape scene is the enacting of dark thoughts with a free pass for thinking or living them out

[HMR89]

Could rape fantasies for so many be an excuse- they fantasize about extreme things occurring to them, without them actually being responsible? They would never do XYZ, but in the rape fantasy it is OK- since they cannot consent? While what HMR endured was not fantasy or pleasure- what I think most men hold as a rape scene is the enacting of dark thoughts with a free pass for thinking or living them out

That does make sense: the fact that they fantasize getting raped makes them feel justified to enjoy such an act but deep down even they know that the real act is so much worse so they prefer sticking to the fantasy.

[pp2009]

It is called "trigger". It means that there are situations (acts, smell, sound, touch, words, it could be anything) that could bring mind of person who went trough traumatic experience as rape is back to those moments. Our bodies are capable of storing memories and that is why some touches can bring all those intensive emotions back to surface without warning. It is all PTSD related.

It is not good to re-traumatize yourself by looking for triggers but rather to learn what are your triggers and to avoid them. Also when triggered and like lost in such intensive and scary emotions it is good to learn how to "ground" yourself and come back to present. Simple saying you name, date of birth, current date and similar can help to ground self. Search web about it, there are many good advices.

Unfortunately many survivors of sexual abuse never treated nor looked for own healing, trauma is staying for many years buried and can show and drive person when felt under stress or some other emotional exhausting state. Mind of person who was sexually abused could be stuck into threatening situations, it was lost battle, person was in shock and there wasn't any safe escape from such terrible situation. Such traumatic memories can become imprinted and if not treated brain will look to repeat in future similar situation in search of resolution of such knot. Unfortunately resolution can't be reached by itself and many survivors of trauma could look for repeating it when felt down.

It is reason why many of them are driven to some high risk activities: drug/alcohol use, obsessive gambling, risky sex... It could be anything that has high drive. And it will not stop before original trauma is healed.

I was abused as kid too and I'm addicted to porn and masturbation. And highest drive can give me some stories that I've found here, I'm not proud about it but that is how are the things.

Look for yourself and avoid triggering stuff...

[PhoenixGeoff]

Could rape fantasies for so many be an excuse- they fantasize about extreme things occurring to them, without them actually being responsible? They would never do XYZ, but in the rape fantasy it is OK- since they cannot consent? While what HMR endured was not fantasy or pleasure- what I think most men hold as a rape scene is the enacting of dark thoughts with a free pass for thinking or living them out

This is an excellent point. It's kind of similar to people who use drugs or alcohol to lower their inhibitions in order to "allow" themselves to do things they wouldn't usually do (and barebacking is a really good case in point...hell, the first times I got bred, I was drunk, so I speak from experience). By framing the sort of sex they want as a rape, they absolve themselves of responsibility.

[subbytch]

There's a difference between the fantasy of rape and the actual practice of it. People fantasize about a great many things they'd never do in person or never want done to them in person. Even people who play rape, by and large, are still freely choosing to give up control for a set period of time, in exchange for sexual and emotional pleasure.

All of that is far different from someone who has their consent taken away and is forced, in the purest sense of the term, into a sexual situation without their consent at any point, and without any idea of the outcome. The vast majority of people on here who fantasize or have engaged in simulated rape wouldn't, wouldn't be in favor of the second example.

[HMR89]

yeah I agree with your stance/view. I was just wondering why anyone would fantasize it but I guess a fantasy is more of a self-imposed justification to avoid blame/guilt/emotional negativity of any sort. Then, of course, there are people who want an experience similar to rape but would feel very different if they were ACTUALLY raped in the truest sense of the word.

[NowOpen]

I have come to believe that it is a man's right to rape whomever he wants, whenever he wants, wherever he wants, as often as he wants. Simple, isn't it?