To What Degree Does "On Meds" = "Undetectable"?

[BAMFJOCKS]

Some great info here thanks!

[rawTOP]

As a neg man, I care whether the guy is on meds or not. VL is secondary, and important, but what I've noticed there are a LOT of guys out there who don't understand what undetectable really means nor to they understand the risk factors. I think the low-med-high risk scale is interesting, but might be too vague. For me, if I want to stay neg, I'd want to know a little more detail. That's just my personal perspective, but I also readily acknowledge that most men won't know which questions to ask or what the answers really mean. It's an unfortunate truth.

Think about tweens who barely care about HIV because they don't understand it. High/Medium/Low risk will help them. And it will help the guys who are math-phobic (there's a lot of those types). But there's also the issue of asymmetric risk. There's the risk to you, and the risk to the other person. Neg guys are only worried about their own risk, whereas poz guys are mostly worried about the risk to the other guy, and to a lesser degree the risk of reinfection for themselves. All of that will have to go into the High/Medium/Low that's presented to the users.

That said, I was thinking of having a field in the profiles for last HIV test (for neg guys). In fact I was going to require a test date to get the status "Neg, Recently Tested" and then after six months it would change to "Not Sure, Probably Neg". The question is what to show when the test is even further in the past - say 12 to 24+ months. I'm thinking it'll go to just "Not Sure" after 12 months for bottoms, 18 months for vers guys, and 24 months for tops.

I guess I could do profile fields for last viral load test date and the viral load number for poz guys, but in terms of importance on the page, it won't be prominently displayed. For this data as well as the test date for neg guys I'll probably have some small icon right after the HIV status, you hover over it or click it and it shows you last test date and viral load (for poz guys).

[bearbandit]

As a neg man, I care whether the guy is on meds or not. VL is secondary, and important, but what I've noticed there are a LOT of guys out there who don't understand what undetectable really means nor to they understand the risk factors. I think the low-med-high risk scale is interesting, but might be too vague. For me, if I want to stay neg, I'd want to know a little more detail. That's just my personal perspective, but I also readily acknowledge that most men won't know which questions to ask or what the answers really mean. It's an unfortunate truth.

Which is why you'd never get my dick up your arse - I don't mean that offensively, just that I don't fuck guys who I don't know are poz. VL should be primary: someone might have just started meds and have a six or seven figure VL, but you're more concerned that he's on meds. That's a recipe for getting knocked up.

VL is difficult to understand (and as I confess above, I don't understand it fully myself and rely on others to jump in when I'm working at myHIV), but the bottom line is the lower the number the better. For myself, despite my fiction, the last thing I want to do is pass it on. I wouldn't fuck anyone if my VL got into four figures, not that there's much possibility of infection at that level, more I won't take the chance. From my observations and listening into conversations between staff I wasn't meant to hear at the clinic, it's not till you get to five figures that transmission becomes a real, as opposed to chance, possibility. Neg guys take their chances, so do we poz guys.

Maybe the best bet is to have a pair of write in boxes, one for the VL and the second for the date it was recorded.

[valeandude]

That said, I was thinking of having a field in the profiles for last HIV test (for neg guys). In fact I was going to require a test date to get the status "Neg, Recently Tested" and then after six months it would change to "Not Sure, Probably Neg". The question is what to show when the test is even further in the past - say 12 to 24+ months. I'm thinking it'll go to just "Not Sure" after 12 months for bottoms, 18 months for vers guys, and 24 months for tops.

I guess I could do profile fields for last viral load test date and the viral load number for poz guys, but in terms of importance on the page, it won't be prominently displayed. For this data as well as the test date for neg guys I'll probably have some small icon right after the HIV status, you hover over it or click it and it shows you last test date and viral load (for poz guys).

Great points... especially about requiring a test date for "neg/recently tested". A test date for poz/undetectable seems good on the surface, but if I were to put myself in the shoes of a poz man I might feel that's a overly invasive. To one of your earlier points, that's something that could be covered either in the text of the person's profile, or while they're emailing with someone.

[rawTOP]

Great points... especially about requiring a test date for "neg/recently tested". A test date for poz/undetectable seems good on the surface, but if I were to put myself in the shoes of a poz man I might feel that's a overly invasive. To one of your earlier points, that's something that could be covered either in the text of the person's profile, or while they're emailing with someone.

For poz guys it would be completely optional. Some guys like the info out there others would rather not think about it. But for neg guys to state you're neg, you really do need to offer a testing date. Otherwise just choose the option to not show your status.

[wood]

That said, I was thinking of having a field in the profiles for last HIV test (for neg guys). In fact I was going to require a test date to get the status "Neg, Recently Tested" and then after six months it would change to "Not Sure, Probably Neg". The question is what to show when the test is even further in the past - say 12 to 24+ months. I'm thinking it'll go to just "Not Sure" after 12 months for bottoms, 18 months for vers guys, and 24 months for tops.

I guess I could do profile fields for last viral load test date and the viral load number for poz guys, but in terms of importance on the page, it won't be prominently displayed. For this data as well as the test date for neg guys I'll probably have some small icon right after the HIV status, you hover over it or click it and it shows you last test date and viral load (for poz guys).

I like this idea, and it may not be a bad idea to have a pop up as a reminder every six months or so that your status will change unless it is updated, hell even saying its time for an HIV test/STI panel.

[TigerMilner]

Actually, there is no way any man can say he Neg and that be a fact unless he hasn't had sex since his last two tests, and I doubt that guy is going to be cruising on this new site. I think it's all getting too techical. It's not sexy. Unless you are bug chaser and a guy has listed not meds and a viral load. I dont' know, not being negative (no pun intended) but it all seems a turn off to me.

[hornyasfcuk]

I agree with the previous poster, simpler is better. Either have the usual array of options, including neg recently tested/poz recently diagnosed. OR engineer a solution that lets the user enter test date; result; VL in there profile settings, and let the profile viewer see a suitable description based on this data, but not the actual data...

[hornyasfcuk]

PS: for me, as someone who has somehow stayed neg, i will always ask status, and if poz on meds/VL. That said, i dont have a problem with a hot poz guy not on meds when my dick is making the decisions!

Edited February 5, 2014 by rawTOP

[wood]

Actually, there is no way any man can say he Neg and that be a fact unless he hasn't had sex since his last two tests, and I doubt that guy is going to be cruising on this new site. I think it's all getting too techical. It's not sexy. Unless you are bug chaser and a guy has listed not meds and a viral load. I dont' know, not being negative (no pun intended) but it all seems a turn off to me.

well PrEP makes that ability pretty damn close. If a top guy is on PrEP, and only has a few partners every few months, the risk is almost non-existent.

Hell even for vers guys on PrEP like me, If you are asking, and sticking to neg guys recently tested, and undetectable guys, there is almost no risk.

[Poz1956]

That said, I was thinking of having a field in the profiles for last HIV test (for neg guys). In fact I was going to require a test date to get the status "Neg, Recently Tested" and then after six months it would change to "Not Sure, Probably Neg". The question is what to show when the test is even further in the past - say 12 to 24+ months. I'm thinking it'll go to just "Not Sure" after 12 months for bottoms, 18 months for vers guys, and 24 months for tops.

Why would a neg top get an 18 month free pass? For that matter why would a vers get a 12 month one?

Everybody gets the same time frame - regardless of position. Follow the best testing practices. Three months - PERIOD! Maybe grant a "Possibly" between 3 and 6, but over six months between tests and all neg guys should be "Unknown," or maybe something more blunt "Not Recently Tested" or "Overdue for Testing." The guy on PrEP MUST go for testing every 3 months, or he doesn't get his prescription renewed - and he's pretty well protected. Why should all the other "less safe" neg guys get a longer time?

Yes a top has a statistically lower chance of catching it on any given fuck. But like rolling snake eyes, it could come up at any time.

You give him 18 months, and he could be Stealthing / Gifting / Pozzing -- whatever you want to call it, for 21 month (almost 2 years) without knowing it. Not everyone gets fuck flu - or recognizes it as such when he gets it. Let's not forget that, other than sharing needles, a Poz top, not under treatment, fucking a Neg bottom, is the most efficient way to spread HIV.

I know an uncut top who only fucked ONE guy outside his relationship raw ONCE -- for half a dozen strokes. It was a 3-way with his partner. He was fucking the outsider with a condom, pulled out and took of the rubber, then decided to go back in. He swears it was about six strokes. The top is Poz now! (The partner luckily has stayed Neg.) Clearly the guy he was fucking must have been newly infected, with viral load in the 10 million or higher range. He didn't even know he was Poz.

I know another top. Only fucked ten people in his entire life. Only Two of them without a condom. Yep - Poz. Probably the bottom was another Pozzie who didn't know he was Poz, again with a high viral load.

Neither of these tops knew they were Poz, until about two years after the fact!

If you're basing your top free pass on statistics, better take into account cut or uncut. An uncut top is only about 2-3 times less likely to get it than a bottom. A cut top is about 15 times less likely to catch HIV than a bottom.

I agree with Tiger. Unless a Neg guy is on PrEP, one fuck would be enough. And that's assuming the last test was accurate. But of course he could have been in the Window Period when he took that test.

Yea, I'm passionate about the subject of keeping Neg guys Neg. Just imagine how much heat and hormones I'd throw, about something more personally important, like me fucking a hot ass, or some stud plowing my hole.

[bearbandit]

Everybody gets the same time frame - regardless of position. Follow the best testing practices. Three months - PERIOD!

I'm not stalking you, but you keep saying things I agree with...

From my perspective there are only two HIV statuses: Poz and "unknown"

[wood]

I'm not stalking you, but you keep saying things I agree with...

From my perspective there are only two HIV statuses: Poz and "unknown"

I would add Neg on PrEP to that.

The regulations in the US currently say you must get tested every three months to stay on it, and it can be up to 99% effective. So really you can say its unknown, but in reality its pretty damn effective.

[rawTOP]

Why would a neg top get an 18 month free pass? For that matter why would a vers get a 12 month one?

Everybody gets the same time frame - regardless of position. Follow the best testing practices. Three months - PERIOD! Maybe grant a "Possibly" between 3 and 6, but over six months between tests and all neg guys should be "Unknown," or maybe something more blunt "Not Recently Tested" or "Overdue for Testing." The guy on PrEP MUST go for testing every 3 months, or he doesn't get his prescription renewed - and he's pretty well protected. Why should all the other "less safe" neg guys get a longer time?

Yes a top has a statistically lower chance of catching it on any given fuck. But like rolling snake eyes, it could come up at any time.

You just answered your own question - because tops are at much lower risk. 7 times lower risk to be precise. Hence their claim at being neg is more likely to be true.

Either way, I'm leaning towards showing a testing date for neg guys. And to the point of the person who said too much detail isn't sexy - I'll probably make it something you have to click or hover to see. So what's presented is simple, but the additional detail is there for those who care.

[bearbandit]

I would add Neg on PrEP to that.

I concede: PrEP is still in trial in the UK which why I discounted it. The chances of meeting up with a guy on PrEP outside of the major population centres (all in England - our nationality within the UK is defined by healthcare) is pretty minimal. The current trial only has 500 places (which are all but gone): why our various NHS's can't just accept the findings from the USA is beyond me.