Barebacking and Actually Staying Neg?

[bobbie]

I think a lot of guys are hoping they are immune...but I think they are kidding themselves.

If you bareback and have sex with hundreds of partners, you will eventually become POZ

it just makes common sense!!!

Embrace it man and to hell with it!

[bobbie]

God I love your dick

[blowmytop]

i was a neg bb btm for five years before i converted. i never asked hiv status because after being stealthed by a guy who my friends knew to be poz but who maintained that he was neg in the aftermath, i didn't really believe that people would tell me the truth. i also felt that the result of asking status and then putting a condom condition on guys who said they were poz would have the unintended effect of rewarding liars. after the stealthing experience, i started barebacking (something that always turned me SUPER on but which i largely resisted except with BFs) because i stopped believing i could protect myself. in the aftermath of getting stealthed, which didn't convert me (got on pep right afterwards), but broke my commitment to safe sex. i made peace with the possibility of getting pozzed while i was on pep (a month of nausea and uncontrollable diarrhea during which i made peace with my mortality for better or worse and came out less afraid of risk in general).

in retrospect, i think most, but certainly not all, guys would tell the truth about status, but after almost a year of dealing with neg guys who have a policy not even having "SAFE" sex with poz guys let alone raw sex, even getting blocked by guys i was merely chatting with, i can understand how poz guys like me would be worn down over time and tempted to lie about status.

you should not fool yourself that you will stay neg. i thought i might have the gene, then i thought my participation in an hiv vaccine study were the reasons i was neg for so long after taking five years of as many loads as i could get raw cocks to fire up into my ass, many of which were anonymous loads from people of unknown status and most of which were in situations where status was undiscussed. the hiv vaccine study ended early because it was proven statistically not to work, and when it was unblinded i HAD received the test vaccine. four months later i was poz. there is no doubt i my (imperfect) mind that my seroconverting was not caused by the vaccine itself, given that i was neg for two years after receiving the last vaccine dose (i almost regret mentioning this because it might invite people to look for a connection). but i think it was actually the prevalence of undetectability - or reduced viral loads among the detectable - that was more the cause of my long bb neg streak.

whatever you decide, i STRONGLY recommend making peace with your mortality. there are so many things that people don't do because they have their eyes on one risk, and in the end they lose the opportunity to live a dream from something TOTALLY off their radar, like a deadly accident, which is listed by the CDC as the fifth leading cause of death. HIV/AIDS doesn't show up in the top ten. (internationally, the WHO lists AIDS as one of the top three causes, so risk is different depending on location). by all of this, i am not recommending anything to you either way about bb. (oddly enough, since i seroconverted, my dislike of condoms is less than it was when i didn't have the power to infect people.)

pozzing fantasies are certainly ubiquitous, i am guessing not so much because guys want to increase disease and the massive expense of anti-hiv drugs among the gay "community" (whatever that means). my personal take on it is more that is a powerful symbol of the hedonistic assertion that the JOY of NOW means more than the MAYBEs of TOMORROW. or because it is something that one man can share biologically with another, somewhat like pregnancy. i have run into many bug chasers and don't begrudge anyone their right to live their dreams, but i was less than turned on when a hookup who had been fucking me raw for awhile shot into me while screaming, "take my syphilis cum." i have run into many poz guys who either cannot relate to those fantasies or who feel a (partial) (situational) draw towards those fantasies but choose to separate fantasy from reality. i mention all of that as a sanity check on whether i was right that i wouldn't be able to protect myself by simply asking status and having discussion before sex, or whether most guys would be straight up if you asked. by that time, i don't know that discussions would have kept me from taking poz loads. in fact they didn't after awhile, as i was eventually happy to cause and contain as much liquid joy as i could for my poz and neg bros alike. nowadays, in america, assuming that healthcare doesn't change drastically or improves, the main change in my life was the sticker shock of hiv meds costs, which can vary significantly depending upon your insurance plan. maybe the ACA changed all of that.

at any rate, there are so many good things in life, many of which turn out to be the opposite of each other. just listen to yourself. you will know what to do.

[Guest sickhog]

What about taking PEP on regular basis? Is this viable and can you get it for prophylaxis?

[Guest GoodExercise]

A meta-analysis exploring the risk of HIV transmission through unprotected anal sex was published in 2010. The analysis, based on the results of four studies, estimated the risk through receptive anal sex (receiving the penis into the anus, also known as bottoming) to be 1.4%. (This means that an average of one transmission occurred for every 71 exposures.) This risk was similar regardless of whether the receptive partner was a man or woman.

[Poz1956]

I can't help but note how many "The Pozzies are lying" comments are here.

There is real data to PROVE that the Undetectable Pozzie is not spreading HIV. Look at the preliminary report from the European "Partner" study.

There is a certain irony in the fact us undetectable Poz guys, who the neggies are most afraid of, are probably going to turn out to be the ones least likely to infect them! Our status is 100% known verses, all the "think they're neg" guys. Many of them don't test regularly, if ever. Those "Clean U B 2" guys, who aren't so clean, and are newly infected have viral loads in the Millions (Had a recent conversation with a newly diagnosed guys who's VL was 9,700,000 - and that's not unusual.) Those "D & D Free" guys, who really aren't "D Free" and have moved into the chronic phase of infection, have viral loads generally in the 60,000 to 120,000 range. Combined, those two groups of guys who are Poz, but don't know they are Poz, are responsible for over 85% of new transmissions

Compare those viral load numbers to the undetectable Pozzie with a viral load less than 40!

Stop the Stigma!

[fillmyholeftl]

I'm going to Whole Foods tomorrow & getting some !!!

[James20904]

Going to whole foods to get what? Am I missing something?

[wood]

I can't help but note how many "The Pozzies are lying" comments are here.

There is real data to PROVE that the Undetectable Pozzie is not spreading HIV. Look at the preliminary report from the European "Partner" study.

There is a certain irony in the fact us undetectable Poz guys, who the neggies are most afraid of, are probably going to turn out to be the ones least likely to infect them! Our status is 100% known verses, all the "think they're neg" guys. Many of them don't test regularly, if ever. Those "Clean U B 2" guys, who aren't so clean, and are newly infected have viral loads in the Millions (Had a recent conversation with a newly diagnosed guys who's VL was 9,700,000 - and that's not unusual.) Those "D & D Free" guys, who really aren't "D Free" and have moved into the chronic phase of infection, have viral loads generally in the 60,000 to 120,000 range. Combined, those two groups of guys who are Poz, but don't know they are Poz, are responsible for over 85% of new transmissions

Compare those viral load numbers to the undetectable Pozzie with a viral load less than 40!

Stop the Stigma!

Agree'd

The "neg" guys who are afraid of poz guys, yet will do anything with a guy who says he is "neg" are just stupid. Hell I'm neg, but the only reasons I say that with confidence about my self is that I'm on PrEP. Guys who are undetectable to me are great because I find they are more likely to take care of themselves and know about their health. Guys who get tested once a year and claim they are neg are just fooling themself.

Hell a fuck buddy of mine just got over a really bad flu like illness. He got all kinds of tests done including a regular antibody HIV test, and all kinds of other scans for viral illnesses. They all came up neg. However. I'm not messing with him until he gets tested again in a few months because I dont trust that he's neg, considering his last test was in the middle of what could be his fuck flu.

Back to the orginal topic it is now a lot more possible to bareback and stay neg that it had been in the past, but it takes some self control, and PrEP at the very least. If you are a bottom, fucking with guys who are exclusive tops can help. Bottoms also really need PrEP. If you are going to take loads, you need PrEP, simple as that. For Tops, you need to look at a guys ass, and not just stick you dick in any hole. If he has other visible sores or possible infections he could have an elevated viral load if he is poz. Also use lube, it reduces friction that can cause abrasion and tears. Vers guys need to do all of that. The number one thing however is regular HIV and STD tests. I recommend 4x a year for anyone having bareback sex with multiple partners. If you test positive for ANYTHING you need to get it treated asap, and tell other partners. Also STAY AWAY FROM DRUGS!! especially meth. I know people that have went to ivy league schools, got addicted to meth and ruined much of their life. Most became HIV+ and many caught HCV too because they eventually start injecting it. Just dont do it. Nothing good comes from it.

[wood]

What about taking PEP on regular basis? Is this viable and can you get it for prophylaxis?

Thats what PrEP is.

[Poz1956]

10% of people with european ancestry are extremely lucky to probably have some degree of immunity. Whereas the rest of us aren't so lucky.

It's actually 1% how are "Homogenized Carriers" meaning they got the CCR5 Delta 32 genetic mutation from both parents, and are actually immune to HIV.

Ten percent got one copy of the gene, from one of their parents. Those people can still contract HIV, but in the days before anti-retrovirals, did not progress (or progressed very slowly) to AIDS.

I know somebody who only slept with ten people in his life, and only two without a condom, both times as a top. He became Poz. Clearly one of them was a very high viral load, just newly infected guy, who probably couldn't even test Poz at the time.

Re: Keeping yourself Neg

Talk to the guy you're going to play with. Don't just assume he's Neg. It is as much your responsibility to ask the other guy his HIV status, as it is his to tell you if he is Poz.

If your only question is "What was the result of your last HIV test," you don't have enough info. How long ago was that test? How often does he get tested? How many guys has he barebacked since that last test? Does he have this kind of conversation with all the other guys he fucks? Those may not be popular questions around here, but you do have a right to ask them as part of selecting your play partners. Just asking them may make some guys bail, because you're spoiling the mood, spontaneity, pigishness, and whatever drew him to barebacking in the first place.

Ask if he's on PreP.

As others have said, get yourself on PreP

There are also some "safer" bareback protocols

Don't get yourself so high that you're out of it, and don't know what's going on.

Don't douche immediately before getting fucked. It's recommended to douche a couple of hours before play, to give enough time for the somewhat protective anal mucus to regenerate.

Douche with warm water only. Don't use the prepackaged enigmas available at the pharmacy

If you douche often, eat pro-biotic yogourt, or take pro-biotic capsule to restore the balance of good bacterial in your gut.

Spit and push just doesn't cut it. Use LOTS of water or silicon based lube. Apply more lube as you fuck. Water and silicone based lube will minimize the risk of irritation to the mucosal lining of your ass.

Spread your barebacking adventures over time to allow any potential damage to your ass time to heal.

Be aware of pain levels. Fucking may cause discomfort or sensitivity, but it shouldn’t be painful. There doesn’t have to be blood for there to be damage.

Don’t get fucked if you have sores or pimples around your ass.

Before getting fucked, relax your asshole as much as possible: try anal massage, get finger-fucked or rimmed (lots of foreplay!). Repeated deep breathing helps your hole open up

It's best not to put toys (like a dildo or butt plug) that has been in another person's butt, in your ass. You can cover them with a condom. Are BB guys so condom adverse that a condom covered toy would violate their code of behaviour?

Eat a diet rich in fibre and plenty of water can increase your overall ‘fuck-a-bility’

Get regularly tested for other STIs including a blood test for Syphilis, and Hepatitis C and an anal swab for Gonorrhea, & Chlamydia. It's a good idea to get a throat swab done for G and C too. Infection with another STI can significantly increase your sustainability to catching HIV. If you've got another STI, don't play until it's cured.

From my nick, you can tell I'm a Poz guy. Got it before the words Safe and Sex were ever used in the same sentence. Back when condoms were used to prevent pregnancy, and gay guys didn't get pregnant. Back when this was just called Fucking, and didn't have this catchy cowboy moniker, or rebel connotation.

It might interest you to see what the latest research is saying.

Last week the preliminary results from the European "Partner" study were presented at CROI 2014. (Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections)

The European based Partner study is following a large number of couples in mixed HIV status relationships. We sometimes get cutesy and call them Magnetic couples, because it's a relationship where one person is HIV Positive and the other is HIV Negative. The medical terms used to describe them are Serodiscordant or Serodivergent. The study includes both gay and straight couples. Before this study there was very little research of HIV in gay relationships or anal sex, and none with enough data to draw statistically significant conclusions. All of the Pozzies in the Partner study have an undetectable viral load.

NONE of the HIV Negative partners contracted HIV from their Poz partner, in the first two years of the study. With an estimated 16,400 gay guy bareback fucks (and 14,000 straight ones), ZERO Negative partners caught HIV from their Positive spouse. Including the straight couples, there is a cumulative 894 years of couple following up, and there was not a single transmission from the Poz mate.

Based on the number, and type of sex acts, had the Pozzies not been under treatment, the researches would have expected 86 (30%) of the neg partners to catch HIV.

Before we celebrate that as a carte blanche in BBing with neg guys, they are about 95% certain -- their "best guess" is we are 0% likely to transmit. They don't have enough data to get that certainty higher, especially for Poz top cum dumping in a Neg bottom. The outside edge of that statistical certainty means, there is a 32% chance of the Neg bottom becoming Poz withing 10 years. (I wonder how many of those relationships will actually last for 10 years.) The quoted <1% per year (for a neg top) and <4% per year (for a neg bottom) are worst case scenarios, and theoretical numbers based on statistical calculations using a 95% confidence interval. They need 450 more European gay serodivergent couples, and study until 2017 to get that certainty higher. The researchers believe those percentages will drop to almost zero, if not completely zero. They will probably Never be able to say absolutely zero chance.

There is a certain irony in the fact us undetectable Poz guys, who you Neggies are most afraid of, and immediately reject, are probably going to turn out to be the ones least likely to infect you! Our status is 100% known verses, all the "think they're neg" guys. Many of them don't test regularly, if ever.

Those "Clean U B 2" guys, who aren't so clean, and are newly infected have viral loads in the Millions (Had a recent conversation with a newly diagnosed guy who's VL was 9,700,000 - and that's not unusual.) Those "D & D Free" guys, who actually aren't "D Free" and have moved into the chronic phase of infection, have viral loads generally in the 60,000 to 120,000 range. Combined, those two groups of guys who are Poz, but don't know they are Poz, are responsible for over 85% of new transmissions. Another 10% comes from guys who know they are Poz, but are not under treatment, again with chronic phase viral loads. And there is a mix of injection drug users that are men who have sex with men which makes up few more percentage.

Compare those viral load numbers to the undetectable Pozzie with a viral load less than 40!

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

"neggie" here... Before PrEP I tended to serosort to poz guys on meds for at least a year. Clearly that worked for me.

[orlandoneg]

The reality is that if you bareback frequently, you are very likely to become poz. I'd rather hookup with somebody that is medicated and undetectable than a guy who's profile says "Neg as of March 15th, 2014." That statement tells me nothing. For all I know, that person barebacked 10 times with random guys since his "test results." One other thing to keep in mind: some people may legitimately forget about a sexual encounter if they drank too much or were otherwise intoxicated. So, they may be infected and may not be lying about their status, per say, because they honestly do not remember the hookup.

[GimmeMore]

The reality is that if you bareback frequently, you are very likely to become poz. I'd rather hookup with somebody that is medicated and undetectable than a guy who's profile says "Neg as of March 15th, 2014." That statement tells me nothing. For all I know, that person barebacked 10 times with random guys since his "test results." One other thing to keep in mind: some people may legitimately forget about a sexual encounter if they drank too much or were otherwise intoxicated. So, they may be infected and may not be lying about their status, per say, because they honestly do not remember the hookup.

Excactly. I know people who say they are negative as of a certain date, but then talk about how they barebacked after they got tested in the same day, so the test would come back negative yet they could have gotten infected an hour after the test was done. Crazy to think like that. I would rather people just say not sure instead of priding themselves on facts that possibility fucked up in a matter of hours. I remember when I got poz and I told the first guy I had been with. His comeback was something along the lines of it's not him because he was tested negative 3 months before we fucked. I'm like are you a dumbass, that means nothing, being you hook up every day on Craigslist and you always bareback. He blocked me. Lol

[jcklvrga]

Let's just put HIV aside for a moment, there's a whole bunch of other stuff you can catch. I have been bottoming with condoms for years, then condoms some and bb some for past 5 years, still neg... BUT... just started topping very recently and almost first time out of the "topping" gate I pick up a case of gono and chlamydia in my dick... it sucks, not in a good way, one round of antibiotics and the gono came back on me, just starting a second round of different antibiotics... I am seriously thinking of going back to condoms all the time.

And last summer I picked up a case of bactierial and parasitic diarrhea just from sucking cock that probably had some shit on it. The diarrhea went on solid for a week and ended up in the hospital... took me 4 months to get fully back to normal.