Harris' position on the Middle East problems

[BootmanLA]

2 minutes ago, hntnhole said:

As to Harris' position, I think she's holding back.  She knows she can't be seen to be at major variance with Biden's position on the question, at least in any substantial way.  She doesn't want to lie either, so she just murmurs something mushy and changes the subject.  I'll bet when Jan 20 rolls around, she'll kick Nettie in the balls though. 

I agree as well that Biden could have handled all of this better.  When the first "you do X and I'll do Y" fell through, I'm surprised that Biden kept up the charade to the extent he has.  While the major media says every so often that they've been "friends for many years", I can't help but wonder.  That said, if Nettie is going to do something really dramatic, it has to be before Jan 20th.  I don't think Harris will accept aggression, let alone underwrite it.  She's more interested in figuring out a workable solution resulting in (at least semi) permanent peace.  

Oddly, some of the guys on BZ think that Biden is shoveling money at the Israeli's.  That's hardly the case.  The Israeli Military isn't getting truckloads of money; they're getting a "credit", against which they can draw for US military equipment.  It's not like the US is paying them to buy military equipment from other countries.  

I agree. Not only can she not appear at variance with Biden's position, but honestly, she can't really come out against Israel's actions in any sort of strong way before the election at all. The Jewish people who are part of the Democratic base may not support all of what Netanyahu does, and may well want a peaceful solution that doesn't involve annexation of Palestinian territory, but they're also not likely to respond warmly to outright attacks on Israel's character, etc. She's still going to be better for the Palestinians (and, honestly, for Jewish people) than Trump ever could be.

[PozBearWI]

Israel is a strategic defense partner of ours.  It's a two way street so part of our defense is via Israel.  We can't really kick Nettie in the balls; as much as the Israeli Trump deserves it.  

[hntnhole]

There are roughly twice as many Jewish Americans as Palestinian. 

I hate to be crass, but ..... if the numbers are as tight as the media says they are, who knows ..... 

I definitely think she's a peacemaker, as opposed to a partisan figure in that conflict.  I'm just glad I'm not a politician.  

[hntnhole]

7 minutes ago, PozBearWI said:

Israel is a strategic defense partner of ours

Interesting observation, and thanks for stating it.  I'm unfamiliar with any details though - do you have any?  Point me to where some of that is spelled out?

Thanks.

[PozBearWI]

[think before following links] https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/#:~:text=The United States and Israel have signed multiple bilateral defense,of Forces Agreement (1994).

[BootmanLA]

It's true that Israel is nominally a security partner for the US. The reality is more nuanced; there's a limited amount Israel could ever do to help defend or protect the US, whereas we're responsible (through arms assistance) for a substantial amount of Israel's security in general.

Where they're most useful is intelligence. Unfortunately, as October 7 showed, either Israeli intelligence has deteriorated significantly, or else it's being sidelined in pursuit of other, larger goals by the Netanyahu administration. 

[PozBearWI]

Well, indeed something went amiss coming up to Oct 7, 2023.  My point it, we can't just cut and run.  Netty will ultimately be replaced. 

[hntnhole]

18 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Where they're most useful is intelligence.

That's true, of course.  What isn't all that clear however, is to what extent the IDF is dominated by the PM.  

I find it disquieting that the US has just finished a bombing run with our Stealth bombers.  As I see it, that's definitely a substantial step along the path of getting sucked into this conflict.  The salt in the wound is the fact that Nettie is clearly side-stepping input from the President, in favor of staying in power.  Obviously, the bombers wouldn't have been sent had the President not signed off on it, and he hasn't said anything (other than via Austin) about it.  

We have garrisons of US troops all over the Levant, including in Yemen. Expanding the war to attacking the Houthi's (by proxy -the US) is hardly any progress towards ending the conflict.  I'd like to hear a little more from Austin about this.  

[hntnhole]

And, thanks for that link, PozBearWI .... 

[PozBearWI]

You're welcome @hntnhole. 

Indeed we do seem to be getting drawn into the conflict further than I wish.  I would prefer we just keep the position of being Israel's "Amazon" for defense stuff and stop there.

What strikes me is how quietly we went about getting Bin Laden.  Although perhaps we staged an Afghan war to keep eyes on that.  But in that case Nettie could be taking actions less hazardous to the civilian population.  

It also strikes me though that those in Gaza had to know what Hamas was doing and by collectively allowing them to infiltrate so deeply with regular citizens as "shields"; they were participants in bringing this on themselves.

Not unlike US citizens will do who were "Apprentice" fans.  There is ample evidence leading up to 2016 who Trump is as a person.  He doesn't meet his contracts; "renegotiating" after contracted work was completed, and typically keeping those vendors facing legal expenses until they just gave up.  Historically his word has never meant anything.  

I for one would definitely NOT want him as a boss.  So why would I choose to employ him as President?  

[PozBearWI]

WRT Israeli / US Intelligence details; It is quite likely none of us here has the security clearance needed to know the true details.  If those details were known, it would no longer be "intelligence" as it would be generally known.  In order for a defense department to work, we need to put people in those positions whose word has proven to be their bond.  Those whose word is good.  I deal with people every day like that; and quite a few whose word is not reliable.  Folks who seem to be unable to agree to something and then hold that agreement.  

In a nutshell, that describes the Orange Geesus.  Most of the time when I listen to him the conflicts within his own statements are pretty obvious.  The evidence is in what he says himself.  Talk about a guy who sucks his own dick....

[hntnhole]

1 hour ago, PozBearWI said:

they were participants in bringing this on themselves

In that sense, of course they had to know what would happen.  It's not quite the same, but it's similar to the "totentanz" the trumpanzee's are busy with.  It makes no sense, none of it is thought through, with only the immediate shiver of delight when one side or the other manages to pull off a good, hard "kill".

Now we see the latest in this tit-for-tat - Yahya Sinwar's murder - which some would say is utterly Just and deserving - but that's not up to me.  I will say that the cycle of killing on a "tit-for-tat" basis lends itself to a truly endless cycle of violence and death.  Worse, that applies in a somewhat more subtle way to us, here in the US.  The actual acts of vengeance aren't as - well - "permanent", but the principle remains the same.  

 

[NEDenver]

So now that Likud is making statements that victory over Hamas means displacing all of the Palestinians for Israeli settlers, at least we can wipe away the “it’s not really genocide,” bleating.  And it’s near certain that rumors last winter that Jared was promised real estate to develop in Gaza are true.  Well, it’s clear what the pro quo is for Trump’s quid of turning easily manipulated right wingers into genocide loving freaks and promises of helping Netanyahu finish the job.”  
 

 

[BootmanLA]

5 hours ago, NEDenver said:

So now that Likud is making statements that victory over Hamas means displacing all of the Palestinians for Israeli settlers, at least we can wipe away the “it’s not really genocide,” bleating.  And it’s near certain that rumors last winter that Jared was promised real estate to develop in Gaza are true.  Well, it’s clear what the pro quo is for Trump’s quid of turning easily manipulated right wingers into genocide loving freaks and promises of helping Netanyahu finish the job.”  
 

 

Exactly.

I'm not going to defend Harris' positions - to date - as particularly principled. Compared to the stated goals of the Trump/Bibi/Likud faction, her positions are about the best any Palestinian can hope for.