"Independent"

[PozBearWI]

Certainly local politics have the most direct impact on our home lives.  (local "politician" myself if elected to local office makes me that).  I also work our polling place when I am not on the ballot myself.  I have yet to figure out why it is the local elections that get super low turnout.  Around here, 10% on some.   Rarely as much as 20%.  

[tobetrained]

@tallslenderguy You said, "To me, the Amazon example has echos of trickle down economics?”

This is an issue of words-on-a-screen vs. face-to-face. I’d bet a million billion quadrillion rupees we’d be on the same page in the latter (not necessarily in agreement, but…you know). But as for trickledown economics, I’m referencing the exact opposite!

In terms of income disparity, I had over-simplified. Yes, it has effects and I didn’t intend to imply otherwise. The issue I’m trying to bring up are the causes. If you don’t grasp the cause, your solution may be ineffectual or flawed, either immediately or over time.

Maybe clearer if I had said, ‘but the growth over the last decade of income disparity is, by definition, not an innate state. We need to look at the causes and not just the effects, and our role in them.’ In so doing, The fed wrote the article (I had linked above) to articulate how and where that incremental wealth was coming from by looking at corporate profits – as more profitable companies pay their employees and board members more in various compensation. Amazon being a case study of that.

I’m not sure if that clears it up or if I’m restating the confusion?? Let me know. I change my bet, though, to million billion quadrillion gagillion rupees.

Again, as far as trickledown economics, this is the exact opposite re: Amazon and the like. And, to your question, I’m not taking a side in this. I’m only trying to articulate a cause so if we discuss solutions, that convo has a baseline (more below).

The success Amazon and the like have is driven by people like you -- and 10s of millions more like you -- who use their service. They provided you a service you want. But that has led to their participation, if not key player, in the income disparity problem (as well as the affordability problem).

So, what’s a solution to the problem? Do you incentivize for better outcomes, or do you penalize success?

As an example of incentive: maybe the government offers a tax credit for buying local, and purchases go through a centralized system to lower your adjusted income regardless of other deductions? Consumer spending is ~two-thirds of our economy so it’s not a ‘David v. Goliath’ issue, to use your phrase. Maybe the government creates a tax assessed to companies who have centralized employees in a few places while collecting revenue from everywhere. This would be deferred to state small business divisions, which fund/support local businesses. The businesses being assessed the tax can reduce this tax by remote or more corporate branch offices around the country or outright building more self-sustaining local businesses. This would additionally help the affordability issue by re-dispersing jobs around the country.

Or do you just tax the rich? A form of populism and class warfare. Or just tax the corporation blindly – which they always pass on to the consumer anyway.

I’m not saying any of those ideas are even viable. They’re just illustrative of an incentive vs. a penalty. Is it clear the difference? Incentive are about working with everyone in the context of the real world. Quite frankly, penalties are the manifestation of populist hate.

You said, “i also believe we are all connected. That means i affect others, but it also means they affect me.”

I agree wholeheartedly. But we need to be more holistic about what connectedness means. It’s not only our time and our words, but also our choices – which includes where we spend our money. Charities agree very much to this notion, right?

[tobetrained]

8 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

my perception is Trump and his current cabinet/inner circle represent  people "who in the US [who] feels differently."  i think the "over reach" is much more extreme than typically happens in our election cycles.  i also think the result is their support base is shrinking the more they try to implement their particular 'agendas." The current administration seems way less responsive to the majority of Americans  and the 'group' they represent is presenting as much smaller and more extreme.   The "groups" i reference in my first paragraph vary in size and membership. i think the political sides you reference also have smaller sub groups (on both sides) and the more 'extreme' (meaning fewer identify  with them), the smaller the group. i think the current "group" is extreme to the point of wanting to thwart and undermine the democratic process vs just wanting to win within that system.

I separated this out @tallslenderguy cuz I think we're going down a dual-topic path.

Whether more or less extreme, wasn't really what I was trying to get to. But yes, it's more.

However, you state above "the 'group' they represent is presenting as much smaller and more extreme."

This is purely a progressive-left view of the world. I don't think facts show it. I want to try and use some data to flesh out -- concepts are one thing, but here we're assuming trends and other things to support ideas.

To do this, I looked over like 20 polling outfits form the last 2 weeks to find a middle ground -- I won't even use the word "average" -- which also had a lot of detail. So, YouGov has an on-going tracker for this purpose. This particular one is sponsored by The Economist. It used to have a slight R-lean, more recently it's been a slight D-lean. But neither lean was terrible for an opinion poll. These results are not that different from others I've scanned in the last 6 months.

Nov 7-10 for reg voters:

• Trump approval: 42%
• Do you think the Republican Party is too extreme: yes = 48%
• Do you think the Democratic Party is too extreme: yes= 48% (not a typo, same)
• Congressional blame for shutdown: Dem=34%, Rep=36%, Both=24%

We are simply in two worlds. There is no real reduction of gain for either side. It's all marginal and it's not moving. Trump's approval is down but not massively in modern terms. It's still 85% among Reps -- so what's shrinking? Remember, off-year elections are less about ideological shifts of voters and more about who turns out to vote. This hits the sitting President's party regardless of who is in the White House.

But right, on gerrymandering Reps are doing a lot. And Dems are responding. But this is nothing new. Dems had the House locked up by gerrymandering throughout the late 20th century. It's actually why Reps NOW are doing what they're doing: they grew up in that era and were pissed at Dem gerrymandering, as Dems are pissed now.

Example: in 1984, Reagan won the Presidential race by 59%-41% of pop vote, Dems led House with 52% of pop vote but, due to gerrymandering, took 58% of seats.

[tallslenderguy]

1 hour ago, tobetrained said:

@tallslenderguy You said, "To me, the Amazon example has echos of trickle down economics?”

This is an issue of words-on-a-screen vs. face-to-face. I’d bet a million billion quadrillion rupees we’d be on the same page in the latter (not necessarily in agreement, but…you know). But as for trickledown economics, I’m referencing the exact opposite!

 

 i'll be vulnerable a guess that we agree that trickledown economics doesn't work the way its proponents assert?

1 hour ago, tobetrained said:

In terms of income disparity, I had over-simplified. Yes, it has effects and I didn’t intend to imply otherwise. The issue I’m trying to bring up are the causes. If you don’t grasp the cause, your solution may be ineffectual or flawed, either immediately or over time.

Maybe clearer if I had said, ‘but the growth over the last decade of income disparity is, by definition, not an innate state. We need to look at the causes and not just the effects, and our role in them.’ In so doing, The fed wrote the article (I had linked above) to articulate how and where that incremental wealth was coming from by looking at corporate profits – as more profitable companies pay their employees and board members more in various compensation. Amazon being a case study of that.

I’m not sure if that clears it up or if I’m restating the confusion?? Let me know. I change my bet, though, to million billion quadrillion gagillion rupees.

 

It was and is (and was) reasonable to me that income disparity has a cause.  It may be as simple as the point you are trying to get across   using the article you cite may be over my head. i think i maybe too simplistic (and macro) terms myself. The point i'm trying to make is i see the cause of income disparity as from a point we both hit on earlier: "greed."  And,  immediately i pause because what may constitute "greed" for me, may not constitute "greed" for another. i'm going to come back to this and connect "greed" with another term being used in our exchange.  But, to me, the vid i shared on "who had it better,"  demonstrates income disparity as a reflection of greed. The money and growth are there, but the smallest and richest group of people is benefiting many times more than the majority middle and lower wage earners. But it was not always that way. There have always been the three levels, but for many years, they all benefitted pretty equally from  overall national economic growth. 

 

1 hour ago, tobetrained said:

The success Amazon and the like have is driven by people like you -- and 10s of millions more like you -- who use their service. They provided you a service you want. But that has led to their participation, if not key player, in the income disparity problem (as well as the affordability problem).

Well, collectively.   If it was just me buying from Amazon, the success would be much less. It seems to me, we can point to any large successful company and make the same statement, and we might be able to demonstrate that everyone, in some way, is a "people like you."  If one drives or takes any fossil fuel vehicle anywhere, they are supporting oil company successs, and the examples are without end. It becomes a question of degree, no? The organic farmer that we buy from locally may buy the packaging they use for the honey they produce at WalMart (the "affordability problem" you note) or the diesel for their tractor from Exxon, or___________. The trail seems endless? 

1 hour ago, tobetrained said:

So, what’s a solution to the problem? Do you incentivize for better outcomes, or do you penalize success?

As an example of incentive: maybe the government offers a tax credit for buying local, and purchases go through a centralized system to lower your adjusted income regardless of other deductions? Consumer spending is ~two-thirds of our economy so it’s not a ‘David v. Goliath’ issue, to use your phrase. Maybe the government creates a tax assessed to companies who have centralized employees in a few places while collecting revenue from everywhere. This would be deferred to state small business divisions, which fund/support local businesses. The businesses being assessed the tax can reduce this tax by remote or more corporate branch offices around the country or outright building more self-sustaining local businesses. This would additionally help the affordability issue by re-dispersing jobs around the country.

Or do you just tax the rich? A form of populism and class warfare. Or just tax the corporation blindly – which they always pass on to the consumer anyway.

I’m not saying any of those ideas are even viable. They’re just illustrative of an incentive vs. a penalty. Is it clear the difference? Incentive are about working with everyone in the context of the real world. Quite frankly, penalties are the manifestation of populist hate.

You said, “i also believe we are all connected. That means i affect others, but it also means they affect me.”

I agree wholeheartedly. But we need to be more holistic about what connectedness means. It’s not only our time and our words, but also our choices – which includes where we spend our money. Charities agree very much to this notion, right?

i do not believe there is something as absolute as a "solution to the problem" of what i think of as less than ideal individual behavior. And i'm a  believer that asshat is not a permanent condition, but a moment by moment choice we can all make. But that gets into the weeds, i know.  

i said i'd return to the factor of "greed," because i thing its connected to how one defines "success."  Looking at the 2025 tax brackets, the percentage of taxes paid on "income earned" goes from 10% to 37% if "earned income" exceeds $626k. Does everyone making >$626k pay 37% in taxes?  Not implying that the tax rates are right or fair, but thinking lower and middle class people pay a larger percentage of their earnings than the Musks of this world.  In terms of left over income, who experiences the larger penalty for success, or conversely has less incentive to 'succeed?"   At what level of income or wealth does one stop experiencing an inability to purchase enough. Is greed a matter of perspective? Is "rich?"  

Is it class warfare to tax the person making $48k 12% but the person making $49k 22%?  At what point does it become class warfare?  

While i do not believe there is a perfect answer, a straight percentage paid by all seems more equal. Maybe one step considering a "living wage?"  

i think the other side of the picture is the challenges of agreeing on what our tax dollars are spent on. 

i need to eat dinner 🙂

 

[Pozzible]

34 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

Is it class warfare to tax the person making $48k 12% but the person making $49k 22%?  At what point does it become class warfare?  

 

That’s not how marginal rates work, is it? As I understand it, the person making $49k would only pay 12% on the first $38k. They’d pay $22% on the income above $48k. 

[tallslenderguy]

9 hours ago, Pozzible said:

That’s not how marginal rates work, is it? As I understand it, the person making $49k would only pay 12% on the first $38k. They’d pay $22% on the income above $48k. 

Yes, you are correct, the system is a marginal system, so only the income that falls into the higher bracket gets taxed at the higher rate.  my comment is half tongue in cheek... and half not, looking at the notion of taxes in general as punitive or a disincentive to success. 

A lower middle income earners tax virtually doubles a that juncture, whereas, once income  gets to ~~$626k per annum the rate is a static 37%. i say "static," but the reality is, the more income one makes, the more ways exist to shelter wealth from taxes.  

To me, the bigger consideration is social.  At what point does one reach the stage of "no financial worries."  The person making $48k, trying to raise a family, buy a house, pay for college, etc., has financial impact of not being able to afford a standard of living that does not impact those who have 'extreme' wealth. To me, a question would be, what constitutes "extreme,"  and some would argue that even asking the question is unfair.  And, it does impinge/impact individual autonomy (i.e., the freedom to choose where our earnings go)... but that is true about the entire system of taxation. 

What are the social questions/ramifications in a social system that relies on taxation?   A few questions: Whose standard of living is most impacted by taxes?   Do social systems that rely on taxation benefit all equally?  What constitutes benefit? 

[tallslenderguy]

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

I separated this out @tallslenderguy cuz I think we're going down a dual-topic path.

Whether more or less extreme, wasn't really what I was trying to get to. But yes, it's more.

However, you state above "the 'group' they represent is presenting as much smaller and more extreme."

This is purely a progressive-left view of the world. I don't think facts show it. I want to try and use some data to flesh out -- concepts are one thing, but here we're assuming trends and other things to support ideas.

To do this, I looked over like 20 polling outfits form the last 2 weeks to find a middle ground -- I won't even use the word "average" -- which also had a lot of detail. So, YouGov has an on-going tracker for this purpose. This particular one is sponsored by The Economist. It used to have a slight R-lean, more recently it's been a slight D-lean. But neither lean was terrible for an opinion poll. These results are not that different from others I've scanned in the last 6 months.

Nov 7-10 for reg voters:

• Trump approval: 42%
• Do you think the Republican Party is too extreme: yes = 48%
• Do you think the Democratic Party is too extreme: yes= 48% (not a typo, same)
• Congressional blame for shutdown: Dem=34%, Rep=36%, Both=24%

We are simply in two worlds. There is no real reduction of gain for either side. It's all marginal and it's not moving. Trump's approval is down but not massively in modern terms. It's still 85% among Reps -- so what's shrinking? Remember, off-year elections are less about ideological shifts of voters and more about who turns out to vote. This hits the sitting President's party regardless of who is in the White House.

But right, on gerrymandering Reps are doing a lot. And Dems are responding. But this is nothing new. Dems had the House locked up by gerrymandering throughout the late 20th century. It's actually why Reps NOW are doing what they're doing: they grew up in that era and were pissed at Dem gerrymandering, as Dems are pissed now.

Example: in 1984, Reagan won the Presidential race by 59%-41% of pop vote, Dems led House with 52% of pop vote but, due to gerrymandering, took 58% of seats.

i think "purely progressive" or its counter "purely conservative" (for lack of a better term) both represent minority sub groups of the "two worlds."   i question the notion of "purely" on either side.  i think the cyclical election shifts from one side to the other are a reflection of the... impurities of each group.  I.e., each group is really a mix of sub groups, and ultimately, a mix of individuals. 

Re "the group" i referenced.  i should have made that plural:  i.e., "the groups,"  i think each side of the general divide is made up of groups that end up getting generalized into two groups, each with their extreme ends, but i wonder if most (ore enough?) of each group has sympathies with the other "world"  that resulted in a shift to the other side, depending on the current direction of the wind? Then there is the 33% who don't participate in the voting process, the disengaged, which numbers change through the cycles. I'm thinking about the smaller sub groups that make up the larger "group."     The attached poll info includes sub groups by demographic: gender, age, race and education.  

Will you link the particular poll you are citing?  

i did a quick look poll search, and chose The Economist site since that's the one you referenced and will attach the results. i need to dig further and look at sampling size and questions asked,  so i understand this is not an apples to apples comparison, but the devil is in the details, eh?  Different set of questions, but also looks at the overall Trump approval question, providing demographic info by state, age and gender, as well as specific topics of concern, like economy, immigration, crime, environment, etc. 

Lower down is a second poll, also from The Economist, on the 2024 election results that gives some similar demographic and by state info for comparison  from that timeframe.

298 days into Donald Trump's term

The president's net approval rating is -18%, 
down 0.2 points since last week.
39% approve, 57% disapprove, 4% not sure

Last updated on November 14th 2025

[think before following links] https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker

Trump election results:

[think before following links] https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/results/president

 

[tobetrained]

@tallslenderguy you said, “ i'll be vulnerable a guess that we agree that trickledown economics doesn't work the way its proponents assert?”

Trickledown economics is absolute hokum. Conceptually, to me, it has an echo of the Great Chain of Being, suggesting people “have their place” and that are “betters” created by a god. I’ll leave it to Wikipedia to describe both that "concept" and trickledown. But I don’t believe wealthy are better positioned to know how/where to innovate. Regulation and taxation can harm development and innovation, sure, but sometimes that’s perfectly fine -- if not preferred outright.

The reason why I said “it’s the opposite” of what I was describing is the implication of trickledown that lower prices justify consumer spending – in fact, that was kinda your point!. 😃 My point, we should use our collective demand to DO SOMETHING about things we don’t like STARTING with their causes, NOT drift to lower prices as justification.

But if those creating the problem and care about the problem aren't moved to DO something that problem by their own actions, I'm out. It's the "stop hitting yourself" argument. 😃 Everything starts with the individual in a free society.

As far as the Amazon example. I wasn’t trying to personalize like it may have come across, just make it relatable. But yes, we make a vote everyday with our purchasing decisions. This is why boycotts have worked in the past, in varying contexts. In an electoral context, it’s why they say, “every vote counts.” That’s either true or false. I think it's true, collective effort can make an impact.

Your right, the trail is endless. But the question is, where do you start in terms of solving a problem: by your own actions or demand someone else fix things for you? 

you said, “…but the smallest and richest group of people is benefiting many times more than the majority middle and lower wage earners. But it was not always that way.”

Now I know where you were going. Yes, part of that is reduced manufacturing/blue collar jobs due to automation and trade, women in the workforce leading to greater separation in household incomes (dual- vs single-income homes) which has elongated household-level disparity, among others. So much in this space to discuss, …the middle 60% are at 73% of prior wealth (if memory serves) in the trend while lower and higher wealth groups have grown by ~135% or better. I think I got that right and where you were going?? Can you elaborate on your thoughts?

you said, “What are the social questions/ramifications in a social system that relies on taxation?   A few questions: Whose standard of living is most impacted by taxes?   Do social systems that rely on taxation benefit all equally?  What constitutes benefit?  “

Taxation is a massive topic with varying types that hit different groups more than others. Our political parties align to whichever system/type benefits their supporters more / costs them the least. E.g., conservatives opt for consumption taxes – sales taxes, if they had to choose a type (but dislike all tax, in general). And so on.

But your questions need more detail – are you assuming some type of government spending plan created by the revenue from taxes. That is, no one benefits from taxes more than others, if say, that revenue is spent on national defense – except the contractors.

But I'm opposed to a targeted tax on one group or class of people to pay for a program for another group or class. It's the definition of economic class warfare... and, through history, has been used by despots, oligarchs, and monarchs to get people on their side, including ending democracy. That starts with Ancient Greece and through modern times. 

What flummoxes me about our politics today, if the Left had got their way previously, Trump would be in charge of so much more! And yet, no seems to stop and think about that. Or the problems a different despot-in-training could create. To paraphrase Blanche Devereaux, "I'm flummoxed, just flummoxed. Flummoxed is the only way to describe how...flummoxed I am!"

As far as the election topic, we traded info on data privately. Is there a follow-up? 

[tobetrained]

1 hour ago, tobetrained said:

The reason why I said “it’s the opposite” of what I was describing is the implication of trickledown that lower prices justify consumer spending – in fact, that was kinda your point!. 😃 My point, we should use our collective demand to DO SOMETHING about things we don’t like STARTING with their causes, NOT drift to lower prices as justification.

I should be clearer on this part: in 80s-90s, liberals (as the the Left was then called) said the same thing re: Walmart that I am saying on Amazon (as a case study, but can be applied elsewhere).

The Republican trickledown response: their cheaper prices are better for consumers and justify the loss of jobs, local-ism, and more corporate consolidation.

This, in part, is what gave rise to the liberal-driven farmers' market boom of the early 90s.

[tallslenderguy]

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

@tallslenderguy you said, “ i'll be vulnerable a guess that we agree that trickledown economics doesn't work the way its proponents assert?”

Trickledown economics is absolute hokum. Conceptually, to me, it has an echo of the Great Chain of Being, suggesting people “have their place” and that are “betters” created by a god. I’ll leave it to Wikipedia to describe both that "concept" and trickledown. But I don’t believe wealthy are better positioned to know how/where to innovate. Regulation and taxation can harm development and innovation, sure, but sometimes that’s perfectly fine -- if not preferred outright.

We agree. Whew. Glad we established that. 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

The reason why I said “it’s the opposite” of what I was describing is the implication of trickledown that lower prices justify consumer spending – in fact, that was kinda your point!. 😃 My point, we should use our collective demand to DO SOMETHING about things we don’t like STARTING with their causes, NOT drift to lower prices as justification.

Got it.  Sort of an example. i quit my Hulu streaming service when Jimmy Kimmel was "indefinitely suspended."  Apparently lots of other people did too, "collectively." Though i do not know how we can accurately measure the impact, it appeared to have an impact. 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

But if those creating the problem and care about the problem aren't moved to DO something that problem by their own actions, I'm out. It's the "stop hitting yourself" argument. 😃 Everything starts with the individual in a free society.

As far as the Amazon example. I wasn’t trying to personalize like it may have come across, just make it relatable. But yes, we make a vote everyday with our purchasing decisions. This is why boycotts have worked in the past, in varying contexts. In an electoral context, it’s why they say, “every vote counts.” That’s either true or false. I think it's true, collective effort can make an impact.

Your right, the trail is endless. But the question is, where do you start in terms of solving a problem: by your own actions or demand someone else fix things for you? 

This was where i was going earlier in the discussion when i referenced topics, taking a dive into sepsis and healthcare,  looking at trust, experts and  added a nod  to Krishnamurti's assertion: You Are the World.

"Where does [one] start in terms of solving a problem?"  i think, realistically, it always starts with ones own actions.  E.g., The question of "organic" labeling grew to the point of legislation. As an individual, i'd been an "organic" grower for years prior to that becoming a legislative issue. i promoted and supported that locally and state wide by growing my own food organically, providing organic produce at a local farmers market, participating as a member of a state wide organization that did similar stuff to me as an individual. When it became a national question, i contacted my representatives, signed petitions on legislative definition of "organic."  While problem solving starts individually, much of it is more effective collectively. 

A point i'm making of the "endless trail," is any individual is limited by capacity in how much and in how many things one can be "expert."  i used the example of healthcare. We cannot all get 12 years of education to be doctors, and that is only one branch of the complex healthcare tree. Doctors specialize because physiology is vast (infinite), then there's nutrition, pharmaceuticals, physical therapy... ad infinitum.    i get sick, i go a doctor. Solving the problem of sickness starts with me, but i'm asking/demanding, relying on,  someone else to "fix things for [me]."  i think this approach applies, in varying degrees, to a lot of things.  Healthcare, plumbing, government... on down "the endless trail." 

i think it's vital to be engaged as an individual. Honest, caring  professionals from the endless list will both praise and bemoan stuff like youtube. On the one hand, it can be very helpful to me as a critical care nurse for a patient to be engaged enough that they have understanding about  issues and interventions affecting their individual health. But, it's impossible for that individual to have the collective understanding and expertise of the "complex healthcare tree." So, they extend trust. But to whom? Ultimately, their own self by the choices they make individually who to trust with their issue. It may be the youtube vid vs their primary care doctor. But really, they are trusting their own emotions and rationale. 

There are trustworthy people, and there are liars and cheats.  But there are also unsolvable problems.  i saw a recent discussion/interview between HC Richardson and Rep Adam Smith. i found it refreshing to hear an American government member asserting that America needs the humility to be a part of the world community vs being in charge of it. That we cannot 'fix' everything, nor should be necessarily take on that responsibility every time we do. 

There are problems that cannot be fixed by us as individuals, collectively or by experts. Goes back to (i think need for) things like "grace," "love" ( i think love can more than an emotion, that i can have a very practical, principled side). Because the human condition is, we know and see in part. 

13 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

Taxation is a massive topic with varying types that hit different groups more than others. Our political parties align to whichever system/type benefits their supporters more / costs them the least. E.g., conservatives opt for consumption taxes – sales taxes, if they had to choose a type (but dislike all tax, in general). And so on.

But your questions need more detail – are you assuming some type of government spending plan created by the revenue from taxes. That is, no one benefits from taxes more than others, if say, that revenue is spent on national defense – except the contractors.

But I'm opposed to a targeted tax on one group or class of people to pay for a program for another group or class. It's the definition of economic class warfare... and, through history, has been used by despots, oligarchs, and monarchs to get people on their side, including ending democracy. That starts with Ancient Greece and through modern times. 

What flummoxes me about our politics today, if the Left had got their way previously, Trump would be in charge of so much more! And yet, no seems to stop and think about that. Or the problems a different despot-in-training could create. To paraphrase Blanche Devereaux, "I'm flummoxed, just flummoxed. Flummoxed is the only way to describe how...flummoxed I am!"

As far as the election topic, we traded info on data privately. Is there a follow-up? 

Ditto "massive topic."

i think that there was a time when "conservative" meant "dislike [of] all tax, in general."   Both sides of our political parties approve of taxes because both want to spend, the distinctions are where the money is spent and who pays for it.  But, at least in current times, the "conservative" assertion of being anti tax is disingenuous at best. 

i may get crucified for saying this, but there is a secret part of me (no longer secret with this writing lol) that thinks there may be a silver lining to the current administrations slash and burn approach.  No, i don't agree with the careless approach, but, on the other hand, when i consider the "massive topic,"  it is a sort of approach to making it smaller. i say "sort of," because, well, side effects.  my point being, in the US history, we've created a "massive topic," that is not easily or simply addressed. The current approach has a lot of  "just blow it up" approach to it, which may present opportunities for a do over?  Many of our issues are from constant adding with never any subtraction.  We run into sustainability issues, while continuing to introduce new and different stuff that costs additional sums. 

i think we both have a similar sense of right and fairness when it comes to "targeted tax."  in my (ignorant, non professional) "do over" scenario, a more simplifies tax system strikes me as more egalitarian. A straight percentage tax on all income.  Of course, that means defining "income." If there is a loophole, people will find it. A world where one can choose which group they want to be a member of, and that group (country?) decides how much to charge and for what services and infrastructure.  None of that is going to happen, we have to work with what we have, adding snow here and there to the massive snowball, taking away snow here and there. 

To me Trump and his inner circle (guys like Miller and Vought) are examples of "despot, oligarch and monarch" approach. i think they exist because "we the people" (individually) became too disengaged from those we hired to run and "fix it."  my hope is, the current situation will result in more people who "stop and think about that."

Would you go into some detail about what you see as "the left [getting] their way previously" that would have resulted in "Trump being in charge of so much more!" 

[tobetrained]

@tallslenderguy I saw your last post before I have to do a a bunch of stuff today. Two quick-hits to respond before something more thorough:

Re: "just blow it up" no issue from me. agree on all points. It happened, can't change the past, move on...it's a great opportunity in the future.

You asked: "Would you go into some detail about what you see as "the left [getting] their way previously" that would have resulted in "Trump being in charge of so much more!" "

Let's say Biden had been able to create UHC, for example. How would you feel with Trump and RFK Jr leading our national healthcare system... not just the payment of it via ACA.

[tobetrained]

@tallslenderguy, you stated yesterday: “Is it class warfare to tax the person making $48k 12% but the person making $49k 22%?  At what point does it become class warfare? While i do not believe there is a perfect answer, a straight percentage paid by all seems more equal. Maybe one step considering a ‘living wage?’” 

You and @Pozzible got thru progressive tax. But it’s very interesting you state that, flat tax (i.e., “straight percentage”). That’s very Republican of you! I don’t mind a progressive tax system with deductions.

You said, “There are problems that cannot be fixed by us as individuals, collectively or by experts. Goes back to (i think need for) things like "grace," …“

Yes, and I added ”leadership” to that. Real leaders don’t offer simple solutions…which was my contention when discussing income inequality/disparity. On the Left, many gloss over the cause of that and go to “tax the rich” as a simple solution to their political outlook. That’s not leadership. It’s being a demagogue. But, sorry to repeat myself, we should be the first step in fixing a problem we create. Sometimes, we don’t need to go to the doctor, so to speak.

You said, “i think that there was a time when "conservative" meant "dislike [of] all tax, in general."   Both sides of our political parties approve of taxes because both want to spend, the distinctions are where the money is spent and who pays for it.  But, at least in current times, the "conservative" assertion of being anti tax is disingenuous at best.“

Well, I’m not the defender of conservatives. But small-c conservatives generally want low taxes believing people can make the choices for themselves Ultimately, what broke the power of the nobility and Monarchy across Western societies, first by personal finance and then by thought -- the market. At a not –so-distant time, the ‘lord of the manor’ would have disciplined you and I for this very convo in his fiefdom. This being a market of thought where time spent is the currency. We would have been branded "trouble-makers."

You said, “To me, the bigger consideration is social.  At what point does one reach the stage of "no financial worries."  …To me, a question would be, what constitutes "extreme,"  and some would argue that even asking the question is unfair…”

I fight against these ideas somewhat vehemently, with words like fair/unfair, and others. I do not believe in moralizing wealth or lack of same. No one deserves either. I despise demagogue politicians who use these notions for popular support, populism. I challenge those who think this way to reposition the question to a global perspective. How would you feel if you personally had to pay $5k/yr into some sort of global wealth tax since the US is so wealthy.

Sub-Saharan Africa, for instance, is well over 1billion people with a median income ~$10k/yr. In a (fictitious) Global Congress, they could join with others - through populist popular vote -- to make that happen. From their perspective, does any American deserve $80k/yr or even $40k/yr. Probably not. From their perspective, are they right? Probably.

That’s not to say those with more shouldn’t pay more. But I don’t accept the idea where we “take from these people” to “give to these people.” And that’s why I jumped to “cause of the problem” and not purely “problem identification” in the context of income disparity. 

You posed the Q: “What are the social questions/ramifications in a social system that relies on taxation? 

I’d suggest this needs to be broadened before it can be answered. The concept has been around since the advent of democracy: What are our individual responsibilities to our society and what should government do to support and enforce? Government support and enforcement costs money.

You posed the Q: “Whose standard of living is most impacted by taxes?

This needs context. The wealthiest pay the most in absolute value per household but need government the least. The poorest pay the least to government per household but need the most from it. That plots out to some kind of “X” with an intersection that changes over time, balance – changing for better or for worse. but there’s no right answer.

You posed the Qs: "Do social systems that rely on taxation benefit all equally?  What constitutes benefit? “

All rely on taxation. Benefit is referential – national defense: everyone indirectly, a food program: the poorest of us directly, etc. None of these issues, though, have an absolute answer. So, is there a direction you’re going? For instance, should the government have programs dedicated to one group of people? If so, how can that be used for tyranny?

Here’s are questions for you: How does a government remain solvent? Isn’t volume of taxation driven by the activities of the government, what it takes on? Regardless of needs, how do you manage capability?

[tallslenderguy]

11 hours ago, tobetrained said:

@tallslenderguy, you stated yesterday: “Is it class warfare to tax the person making $48k 12% but the person making $49k 22%?  At what point does it become class warfare? While i do not believe there is a perfect answer, a straight percentage paid by all seems more equal. Maybe one step considering a ‘living wage?’” 

You and @Pozzible got thru progressive tax. But it’s very interesting you state that, flat tax (i.e., “straight percentage”). That’s very Republican of you! I don’t mind a progressive tax system with deductions.

 

Eek, i repent. Bur seriously, that was a throw it at the wall to see if there's any adhesion comment. i resort to my foundational assertion that i'm a regular guy talking about stuff that confounds experts.  On the one hand, a flat tax seems to treat all equally, but then it doesn't take into account that all are not (e.g. financially) "equal."  From my limited grasp, it seems a method more suited to starting out an economy, than it does applying to an already complex economic system.  Looking at your response, the progressive tax system seems more suited to the realities facing individuals, while a flat tax seems to assume one total group would be equally affected. 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

You said, “There are problems that cannot be fixed by us as individuals, collectively or by experts. Goes back to (i think need for) things like "grace," …“

Yes, and I added ”leadership” to that. Real leaders don’t offer simple solutions…which was my contention when discussing income inequality/disparity. On the Left, many gloss over the cause of that and go to “tax the rich” as a simple solution to their political outlook. That’s not leadership. It’s being a demagogue. But, sorry to repeat myself, we should be the first step in fixing a problem we create. Sometimes, we don’t need to go to the doctor, so to speak.

YES!! Agreed. Go back to my previous paragraph (where i to my credit "repent"), some guy (i.e. me) on the internet suggesting a flat tax does not constitute a "real leader," (at least, not on that topic). In this case, i'd be the patient who watched a youtube video and then chose my own judgement over my doctors. On the other hand, those patients questions can help challenge presumption that often comes with 'expertise' or professional authority.  Sort of how the ongoing scientific process (ideally, more study is always needed) disallows static notions in a an infinite, fluid reality. 

A challenge is, knowing when we need to go to the doctor. 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

You said, “i think that there was a time when "conservative" meant "dislike [of] all tax, in general."   Both sides of our political parties approve of taxes because both want to spend, the distinctions are where the money is spent and who pays for it.  But, at least in current times, the "conservative" assertion of being anti tax is disingenuous at best.“

Well, I’m not the defender of conservatives. But small-c conservatives generally want low taxes believing people can make the choices for themselves Ultimately, what broke the power of the nobility and Monarchy across Western societies, first by personal finance and then by thought -- the market. At a not –so-distant time, the ‘lord of the manor’ would have disciplined you and I for this very convo in his fiefdom. This being a market of thought where time spent is the currency. We would have been branded "trouble-makers."

 

 

 

Vive democracy.

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

You said, “To me, the bigger consideration is social.  At what point does one reach the stage of "no financial worries."  …To me, a question would be, what constitutes "extreme,"  and some would argue that even asking the question is unfair…”

I fight against these ideas somewhat vehemently, with words like fair/unfair, and others. I do not believe in moralizing wealth or lack of same. No one deserves either. I despise demagogue politicians who use these notions for popular support, populism. I challenge those who think this way to reposition the question to a global perspective. How would you feel if you personally had to pay $5k/yr into some sort of global wealth tax since the US is so wealthy.

Sub-Saharan Africa, for instance, is well over 1billion people with a median income ~$10k/yr. In a (fictitious) Global Congress, they could join with others - through populist popular vote -- to make that happen. From their perspective, does any American deserve $80k/yr or even $40k/yr. Probably not. From their perspective, are they right? Probably.

That’s not to say those with more shouldn’t pay more. But I don’t accept the idea where we “take from these people” to “give to these people.” And that’s why I jumped to “cause of the problem” and not purely “problem identification” in the context of income disparity. 

 

i'd (likely) be by your in the vehement fight.  The notion of "take from these people to give to these people" strikes me as the opposite of moral.  How to we reach the Star Trek era where "those with more" agree and voluntarily (even want to?) "pay more?" 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

You posed the Q: “What are the social questions/ramifications in a social system that relies on taxation? 

I’d suggest this needs to be broadened before it can be answered. The concept has been around since the advent of democracy: What are our individual responsibilities to our society and what should government do to support and enforce? Government support and enforcement costs money.

Yes, you are right of course. It's not as if we are starting from scratch here, society already is a huge system that has long relied on taxation.  Day to day governance is more like tending the establishment garden vs a revolution that does a reset. 

12 hours ago, tobetrained said:

You posed the Q: “Whose standard of living is most impacted by taxes?

This needs context. The wealthiest pay the most in absolute value per household but need government the least. The poorest pay the least to government per household but need the most from it. That plots out to some kind of “X” with an intersection that changes over time, balance – changing for better or for worse. but there’s no right answer.

Yes and no? (note the question mark).  

The wealthy benefit maybe more from the roads and infrastructure they use to transport their stuff to the workers they employ who buy the stuff they make to make the wealthy, wealthy (is that convoluted?). 

Pharmaceuticals. i did an investigation a few years ago on the cost of developing a new drug.  Then, it was about 5 billion dollars.  Half of the cost is subsidized by federal grants (i.e., tax dollars). Half of that 5 billion dollars is profit.  

So, as the 'patient' watching the youtube vid, i go to my 'doctor' with a cure. Why not skip the middleman. NIH hire, instead of fire, those same scientists working for the pharmaceutical company. The incentive for creativity could be enhanced by paying the research scientist more than the pharmaceutical company did, or maybe a bonus system to incentivize creativity, would still result in a much lower cost for drug development.  It would still employ the same amount of productive people. The primary investors would be the ones to lose out, but then, what are they really contributing? The small investor whose few dollars a month go into a mutual fund won't take much of a hit on that side of the equation. I'll use the incendiary term here, the "oligarchs" are the biggest losers? But, have they produced anything or just exploited the productivity of others? The notion of risk of investment is pretty watered down by federal grants. 

i wonder how many are super wealthy because they benefit from our system of taxation? 

13 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

You posed the Qs: "Do social systems that rely on taxation benefit all equally?  What constitutes benefit? “

All rely on taxation. Benefit is referential – national defense: everyone indirectly, a food program: the poorest of us directly, etc. None of these issues, though, have an absolute answer. So, is there a direction you’re going? For instance, should the government have programs dedicated to one group of people? If so, how can that be used for tyranny?

No, no particular direction other than publicly discussing and learning to perhaps better refine or qualify a direction to go. 

It seems to me that all government programs are directed to "one group of people," but the benefits vary amongst the members of the group.  E.g., national defense (spending), benefits Lockheed Martin more directly than the person working at McDonalds (referential).  Having fun with AI: "Usage Statistics: In 2020, it was reported that Walmart accounted for approximately 18% of all SNAP transactions in the U.S."  

i know i'm maybe missing your point, but maybe simultaneously making a valid point that "one group" is hard to label or define?

But to your question: Some argue the current guys in charge used group programs like SNAP and ACA tyrannically. 

13 hours ago, tobetrained said:

 

Here’s are questions for you: How does a government remain solvent? Isn’t volume of taxation driven by the activities of the government, what it takes on? Regardless of needs, how do you manage capability?

i don't presume to have the answers, just thoughts and more questions... but to me, this is part of the process of maybe finding answers.

i've been pretty fiscally 'conservative' my whole life. I.e., i work hard to get out of and stay out of debt. i was first debt free at the age of 43 when i paid cash for my first house. i worked my ass off to get there. Then at 51, i got divorced and my former wife got everything (long sordid story), and i started over. i'm currently debt free again, and that's after paying of >100k in student loans from a career change at age 55, and own my house again (no mortgage), no credit card debt, etc.. my individual experience and philosophy is one remains solvent through hard work and not spending more than one has. Debt should be a short term tool vs an ongoing integral approach.  i honestly do not know if that would or could work on a huge government level?  my intuition asks: "why not?"  my rational brain says: "it's complicated."

Volume of taxation can be summed up as "driven by the activities of government," but it seems to me, the devil is in the details?  Some activities are driven by the voting population. Some are driven by greed, corruption. Some are driven by systemic red tape. The list is probably really long, but it seems to me the activities of government often fly under the radar. Legislation often feels like buying a used car from a disreputable dealer, where the sales person is always leaving the negotiation to "check" with their "manager."   I.e., the disguised or buried add on expenses are SOP.  So, "what it takes on" is way more than the proposed used car.

All my answers refer back to my first disclaimer lol.  

Education and engagement seem important to me to managing capability.  i think US government does a lousy job of managing expectations.  i think we Americans often expect a panacea when there is no cure, just management of an ongoing condition. I.e, "needs" will always be a part of life, part of education and expectation management might include replacing the notion of a total fix with need reduction that fits within means. I may want a Ferrari, but i can get by with a Toyota.  Both are capable vehicles.