What porn business advice would you give to rawTOP?

[rawTOP]

I'll start by saying I misread your first comment - missed the fact that you were talking about Raunchy Fuckers. But you're looking at the trees, not the forest. This is a high level discussion. GermanFucker got it right when he said that the "dark" side of bareback is a limited market, and the over-arching issue here is that fewer people are paying for porn. Making it easier for a small group of people to find something specific on a free site isn't a business strategy - that's a site feature.

And just so you know, there is a page on Raunchy Fuckers for poz talk:

http://www.raunchyfuckers.com/search/poz-talk/page1.html

If you find other videos on there that should have that tag, let us know. And feel free to upload amateur stuff with poz talk in it. If you tag your videos with 'poz talk' they'll show up on that page.

So what you originally asked for already exists.

*People want to be stimulated, they don't want to see the same old boring shit over and over again. NOBODY right now is at all capitalizing on poz interest. ******** is super lame in that they just slap "toxic" on whatever, even old videos that are blatantly being recycled. Barebackbastards has poz this and poz that, but actually they've got pretty much zero apparently real poz, pozzing, poz talk videos.

*Yeah it's a risk, yeah you're increasing your visibility on a very contentious topic, but ask yourself, if you're not capturing the revenue stream you'd like, do you want to just scoot along playing as safe as safe can be, or do you want to actually take the vast amount of user feedback, expressed wishes, etc, and actually turn around and supply that demand? That's all economics is, supply and demand. I'd even be willing to wager you that the demand for poz related porn (real and obvious) is such that if you took the risk of capitalizing on the expressed interest, the gain would far outweigh the loss.

Also, I'd totally suggest that you implement micropayment systems for the videos such that people, and you could try starting with an experimental donation type system to see how folks react, but here's the deal.

Why the fuck should anyone pay a large sum, and I'd say anything over $1 is actually a large sum, for the privilege of just watching something that they may or may not even like? If they really like the video they can either pay again or maybe they might even pay to own...these days, I pretty much refuse to pay up front for any porn that I've not seen once through because there is so much bullshit tricks in the industry, but porn is, I can totally argue well, as much the pinnacle of art as anything is...not going to go there right now.

A few things you need to know...

There won't ever be payments on Raunchy Fuckers - there can't be - no biller will touch the site unless every video on the site is completely documented and legal. Because Raunchy Fuckers has amateur content on it it's not eligible for payments. When you see "Join" buttons on sites with amateur in almost all cases you're not actually joining that site, but another site with completely different (legal) content. They have to put the legal content on a completely different domain and they'll just have previews on the main domain.

What you describe for payments is pretty much what I have on rawTOP.tv - you can sign up for free and then buy minutes for 15 cents. A 10 minute video would cost $1.50. A 20 minute video would cost $3. There are plans that bring that cost down substantially and you can do Download-To-Own for DVDs from major bareback studios for $15 or less (which is a damn good deal).

Now, as far as the poz thing - most studios won't touch it. You just don't find poz talk in the videos from the major studios - or if you do it's really rare. And remember, I can't charge for amateur videos - 'cause the banks won't touch amateur. BUT, I have (just) started shooting some videos with poz talk. Mind you, I'm neg so it's fantasy, but I've found a bottom or two who like it when I say I'm about to poz them. Those videos will go up on rawTOP.tv when I get them edited.

So bottom line - none of that is general business strategy, and what you talk about already exists or I'm already working on it.

I need strategies that can appeal to broad groups of people.

[nekofox]

You've pretty much got a lot of good things going as is for now. The main thing really is that, despite all the stuff that's being asked for on our end for sites like Raunchy Fuckers, there's still so many that don't post that would do much better on RF instead of X Tube all the time.

Plus, I still want to post another few vids, but it's been a while and the help I was getting just left me hanging.

[rawTOP]

You've pretty much got a lot of good things going as is for now. The main thing really is that, despite all the stuff that's being asked for on our end for sites like Raunchy Fuckers, there's still so many that don't post that would do much better on RF instead of X Tube all the time.

There are a number of variables. One is the number of visitors ("traffic") which goes to your comment that more people should participate on Raunchy Fuckers. Another is porn buyers and how much they buy and which types of sites attract them. Another is getting into the game early before the field gets crowded.

Another is the size of your niche. I met one of the primary owners of Manhunt in April. He was shocked anyone focused on would have a bareback hookup site - his comment was "are there that many poz guys to make that business model viable?" And he's not even talking about sub-niches within bareback. (Mind you he's probably in his 70s and a bit out of touch - he's the guy who gave to John McCain in the '08 election).

Plus, I still want to post another few vids, but it's been a while and the help I was getting just left me hanging.

WolfJD manages Raunchy Fuckers for me. Contact him directly if you need help with anything.

[GermanFucker]

Funny you should contrast "lighter and fun" with "heavy, raunchy". I went to Fire Island a couple weeks ago and a woman I'd never met before told me I "have a strong energy". I've always been pretty serious - even as a kid. Light and fun are not words people would use to describe me.

Again, just my ramblings:

I think there is a difference between intensity (One thing I hear from Americans all the time is that "you Germans are so intense", I think you might fall into the same category.) and - for lack of a better word - heavy-handedness. TIM is very successful with the heavy / raunchy stuff (gothic setting / design, ominous music, drug allusions, "come join the club" text intros etc.) and I don't want to criticize that in any way. It's a valid market.

I just think that the majority of the (gay) population wants to be young forever and act carefree as if their deeds didn't have consequences, in the same way that Hilfiger advertise their clothes.

I think it's a choice: Do you want to be McDonalds and have the broadest audience possible (at least 50% of all gay men bareback if the circumstances are right, so that's a very broad target group) or do you want cater to the poz fetish crowd. I actually agree with coyotesmiles: Many guys on breedingzone are looking for a better HIV fetish platform. You could totally corner that market. But you would limit yourself to a niche (nothing wrong with that).

So I don't think you should turn everything upside down. But I think the question of what route to take hinges on which market you want to serve:

Do you want to be no.1 in hardcore poz fetish? Then it's about community and a feeling of security (from censorship, condom nazis etc.), not necessarily cutting edge technology.

Do you want to bring barebacking into the mainstream? Then it's about being welcoming, unoffensive and offering interactive features).

Or do you want to bring new guys to barebacking? If you want to get the 19-year-olds everything has to center around mobile devices and cater to a 15-second attention span like Twatter.

BUT your comments about this site make me think that it may not be good to turn this site into a hookup site. It may be better to start fresh. In a way this site has baggage that shouldn't be taken into a more general site - which I think is your point.

Don't take me too seriously, but yeah, something like that (It's just to hot and humid here right now to think clearly). What I probably want to say is: Maybe you should come up with a kind of mission statement (what do I want my new platform to be / to be the best at) first and then think about ways of implementing that. Without abandoning BreedingZone, of course .

I was half asleep when I responded to you before, but I've got a lot of thinking to do. Your comment that tubes are a mature market has hit home and is something I'll keep in the front of my mind. Yes, I need tubes, but I need to think what comes next.

I just think that having a tube site isn't a purpose in itself. It's just a means to an end. As coyotesmiles said, if that end is creating a social experience for HIV fetishists, it clearly serves a purpose and certainly isn't a thing of the past.

[rawTOP]

I think it's a choice: Do you want to be McDonalds and have the broadest audience possible (at least 50% of all gay men bareback if the circumstances are right, so that's a very broad target group) or do you want cater to the poz fetish crowd. I actually agree with coyotesmiles: Many guys on breedingzone are looking for a better HIV fetish platform. You could totally corner that market. But you would limit yourself to a niche (nothing wrong with that).

So I don't think you should turn everything upside down. But I think the question of what route to take hinges on which market you want to serve:

Don't take me too seriously, but yeah, something like that. What I probably want to say is: Maybe you should come up with a kind of mission statement (what do I want my new platform to be / to be the best at) first and then think about ways of implementing that. Without abandoning BreedingZone, of course .

I just think that having a tube site isn't a purpose in itself. It's just a means to an end. As coyotesmiles said, if that end is creating a social experience for HIV fetishists, it clearly serves a purpose and certainly isn't a thing of the past.

My boyfriend and I used to talk biz strategy a lot more. Then we got distracted by other things. So tonight we're going out to eat in Chinatown and talk strategy. Out of that should some something like the mission statement you talk about.

Just reassure people - Breeding Zone will continue to cater to it's current clientele. There may be changes, but after your earlier comments it just makes sense to not try to make this site appeal to a broader audience.

But I've been wanting a hookup site for a while now - BarebackRT needs a run for their money. Even sites like Adam4Adam are very old school in their approach. I spent much of this morning looking at "dating scripts" (software). I think I found one I like. It's highly customizable so I can add in the things gay guys expect but it has things like games, and classifieds, forums, groups, and blogs that you don't find on most gay sites. It'll be a good place to start. I bought the domain for it a while back - BBFuckClub.com (or BarebackFuckClub.com) - so the only caveat is that the guys who join have to be into bareback. There is a mobile version of the site - so hopefully it'll appeal to the tweens. Basically it'll be focused on the broader bareback community - HIV fetish and chem sex will be censored (people will be told to come here for that).

[coyotesmiles]

Rawtop-

First, I'm not sure if you're reacting the way you are on purpose or what, but I thought I was clear when I wrote,

"People are demanding, wanting, expressing- etc. That there be (in no particular order)

-more videos with internal cum shots and no pulling out

-more videos with poz talk

-more videos that are obviously (not pretend or fantasy - but really actually so) poz tops fucking neg bottoms.

-more and I'm not listing it because I want to go watch porn"

That by writing "more and I'm not listing it" indicated that there is much more lying under the table or whatever fucking allusion you want to use.

Let's see...PNP? Nastykinkpigs has sort of been fostering that but they don't seem to be doing so well with it. Xtube tolerates said video types but again, most of those tagged to PNP are pretty boring.

What else...oh wait, yeah I already wrote "internal cum shots and no pulling out"

Uh...that has nothing to do with poz or neg or whatever, you've got at least one gigantic thread in which people are bitching and moaning about how almost every porn (and it's true because I can say very confidently that I watch porn like nobody's business and I know that I right now can think of less than 5, though there probably are more, but I'd say maybe not even 10, full length (like more than 10 min) good quality (like the camera work is decent, the pixelation is not a problem), videos in which the top or tops cum fully inside with no pulling out.

Yeah, there is a shit load of "breeding" and even "creampie" vids out there most of those consist of the top pulling out, coming outside, and then pushing back inside...that's not fucking breeding...

That's what guys do!

Who the fuck pulls out during sex and cums all over a guy AND then pushes back in? that makes no sense. First, I think out of, I dunno, maybe a hundred or so sexual partners in the last few years or whatever, I've met just one person that actually told me not to come in him...Maybe I'm just suffering from self-selection bias but I don't know...I've talked to other guys, Paul Morris says the same thing- it really seems that condom porn and even a lot of bareback porn is really kind of bullshit fiction in that what is portrayed isn't at all like actual sex between guys.

Oh wait a minute, I just remembered, Sean Cody is totally shifting in this direction and is kind of killing it right now...so I dunno...he's getting actually a lot of shoots that are with the top cumming once inside and then once outside, but lately it seems like the models are sort of just doing whatever...which often seems to translate into they top cums inside.

Anyway, I really should take a shower and get dressed so I'm going to cut this here, with just a few quick rejoiners.

Why can't you use virtual currency like Bitcoin or whatever?

I was talking to an employee for, at least she claimed, the most established gambling/casino/whatever style game company in the world, and she said that they bypass the currency restrictions by offering the players virtual currency.

To me, being afraid of virtual currency is like being afraid of that your credit card is actually the tool of the Antichrist when in fact it's just a piece of plastic with a magnetic strip and blah blah blah whatever...plus anyone whose anyone knows that the Antichrist always sneaky, little old ladies in black for tools...oh wait...that was Damien...hmm.

Anyhoo, you don't want a strategist you want a genie.

It is not strategic to seek to satisfy a maximal function when that ipso facto will dilute your core values, your product quality, etc etc. and in turn degenerate you, your company, your mission, etc etc.

A LARGE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION DOES NOT EAT AT MCDONALDS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DO SO THEY EAT THERE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS ACCESSIBLE TO THEM.

This is the gods damned fucking internet, it's about a magical as anything is going to get on this planet and if you want to do it, you can do it, by which I mean, take what is that you see distilled and reflected in Breeding Zone. There is obviously a lot of passion, interest, etc etc, here, and you can either channel it or you can put it on the back burner in order to be more mainstream or whatever (that's a total illusion btw). You can make all this that drives and engages and entices users to this site, you can take that and you can easily make it accessible to more, and in doing so offer even more than is currently in play.

Like I said, I am more than happy to do a meta analysis of your site with no strings attached and no expectations of anything, and I will continue saying, I think that if I quantified all of the activity I could very easily demonstrate that there is an incredibly powerful interest in everything I've listed above, but then you could just as easily say that I skewed the statistics or whatever.

Hell, I'd even be willing to take that meta analysis and actually do some indexing and projections and models on XTube and other such because I feel that what's going on is, there's actually a huge, huge market that is being essentially repressed and denied and shut down not because people don't want it, and not because there's not money to be had, but because there is stupid political and religious nonsense that fucks everything up, because really, it's wrong for a poz top to cum inside of a neg bottom? Oh...? What about the fucking rainforest?

Nobody is right or wrong here anymore. At this point, the best bet is to just run with a hedonist attitude, and say, if it works it works and if it gets you off then great.

So I'll close with this, yeah, you can spoon feed people generically pleasant sets of people having intercourse in the most broadly appealing manner (don't look at me Aesop said it), and you know what, yeah, you'll probably capture a decent chunk of the revenue stream.

Or you can capitalize on the simple truth that novelty drives appeal and appeal brings in the customers. There are so many websites all across the web right now all pouring out a flood of pure drivel. The models look the same, it's the same set of actions (guys are clothed, take off clothes, a sucks b, b sucks a, a rims b, a fucks b, nobody fucking says anything, it's all super boring, then a cums and then cut, next? blah).

I offer my assessment because I have liberally made use of your site with little contribution up until this point. I would like to see the users/members voices/wishes heard and acted upon, and I respect you for putting this together and getting things thus far.

However, if you wish to seek maximal gain simply to have more money, then I tell you this, you will succeed undoubtedly for a time and perhaps that is fine with you, but know this, sooner or later someone is going to come out of the woodwork and they are going to do exactly what Martin Luther said you should do,

"Sin and Sin Boldly"

I could go on and on but I have a conference I'd like to attend so, and fuck me, I guess I'm just spooling out the shit right now, but here's a final thought.

Have you ever heard of a webcomic called Order of the Stick?

Do you know who does it?

Do you know who reads it?

Well I do, and it is, yes, super smart, very funny, and quite interesting...it's also a bunch of fucking stick figures that a grade schooler could draw. In short, it's not some incredible work of art, well actually...whatever

Point being Rich Burlew the creator of OotS did a Kickstarter about a year ago and I think he requested a few tens of thousands of dollars.

HE GOT A FUCKING 1.5 MILLION DOLLAR CASH INFLUX FROM

Who?

Who are these people that read his comic?

I have no idea but apparently collectively they were able to throw literally about 1.5 million dollars that basically because of the way Kickstarter works, there are pretty much no strings attached and he can pretty much do whatever ever the fuck he wants.

He's not the only one that's done this, it's happening all over Kickstarter.

These guys aren't trying to please everyone, they know their market, they know their product and they're killing it and the fucking money doesn't lie...

So whatever...

[rawTOP]

coyotesmiles - So you're calling me a liar about credit card processing for adult content? You've only done 6 posts and 3 of them are in this thread - arguing with the site owner. Not a good way to start.

My best friend just got his accounts closed by Chase for sending wire transfers to Manwin - the owner of XTube/GayTube/Tube8/YouPorn/etc. - one of the biggest companies in porn. He had a good track record with Chase for 20 years and over $800K in his accounts for many months now. All he did was send a wire transfer to a company they didn't like and 20 years of a banking relationship is up in smoke. Financial institutions are very weird when it comes to porn. It's really easy to get badly burned.

I am conservative when it comes to business and I try not to do things that could come back to bit me in the ass. It's the reason why I didn't get into tube sites early on - there were too many producers suing tube site owners. Trust me, using Bitcoin will bite me in the ass. The rules for adult are set by Visa. I know what they are and who works with adult - there aren't that many options, trust me.

99% of what you just said didn't contribute in a meaningful way to this thread. I'm not going to make a meaningful change in my business by having something that lets you find more internal cumshots. That's looking at the tree, not the forest.

If you do one more long argumentative rant I'll ban you for a month.

[rawTOP]

Trust me, using Bitcoin will bite me in the ass.

Just did a bit more research. Bitcoin isn't quite "there" yet for adult, but I think it will be in the next year. The risk is that many of the TOS's have ambiguous language when it comes to adult activities. Which means the company could cancel your account and keep the balance in your account. I've seen that happen before and almost lost money that way. Until it's a sure thing I'll stay away.

[rudeboyxxx]

Firstly ... kill the aggression coyotesmiles, chill out man! Id like to say thanks to Rawtop for all of these great sites ... I use them daily ...

My thoughts for what they are worth ... look at the forum main page, the Bug Chasing & Gift Giving FICTION Forum always has the most people viewing at any one time. Look at Raunchy Fuckers, the poz vids are amongst the most popular/viewed ... I'm neg an hope to stay that way, atm, but there is something incredibly horny about the whole bug chasing thing ... a post on RF that is labelled poz is instantly twice as horny as one that doesnt mention poz (even for very similar content). Amateur poz porn is what I keep returning too time and time again...

It aint politically correct but people know what they want and they are voting for poz porn ... its also rather rare/difficult to find compared to the generic studio stuff, and therefore has the biggest chance of generating revenue ... give the people what they want ... raunchy, pnp, piggy, poz porn, ....

if I knew the quality was guaranteed/screened Id pay for poz porn, there is little else I'd pay for other than hook up sites where I know Im spending money to get real life sex ... Im sure its a legal and banking minefield but is there any mileage in sharing profits with the uploader like the download websites do/did but for verified, amateur poz porn ...

The hook up site is a great idea and has potential but to truly generate numbers it would need to be BB and safe sex, cater for everyone ... at the moment I have to visit a few sites to cover all bases ... squirt/bbrt/grindr/craigslist etc A single hook up site that did everything the others do has got a real chance of being big ... but obviously its also high risk given start up costs and the high chance of failure as a late entrant to the market ...

Edited July 26, 2013 by rudeboyxxx

[rawTOP]

My thoughts for what they are worth ... look at the forum main page, the Bug Chasing & Gift Giving FICTION Forum always has the most people viewing at any one time. Look at Raunchy Fuckers, the poz vids are amongst the most popular/viewed ... I'm neg an hope to stay that way, atm, but there is something incredibly horny about the whole bug chasing thing ... a post on RF that is labelled poz is instantly twice as horny as one that doesnt mention poz (even for very similar content). Amateur poz porn is what I keep returning too time and time again...

It aint politically correct but people know what they want and they are voting for poz porn ... its also rather rare/difficult to find compared to the generic studio stuff, and therefore has the biggest chance of generating revenue ... give the people what they want ... raunchy, pnp, piggy, poz porn, ....

if I knew the quality was guaranteed/screened Id pay for poz porn, there is little else I'd pay for other than hook up sites where I know Im spending money to get real life sex ... Im sure its a legal and banking minefield but is there any mileage in sharing profits with the uploader like the download websites do/did but for verified, amateur poz porn ...

My best friend is who runs rawTOP.tv. I'll talk to him about how far I can push the poz thing. There's a difference between "legal" and what Visa allows. Visa is far more conservative than the law. Visa won't let you show drug use. Legally the consent forms are invalid if the person is high, drunk, etc. - even if they re-consent after the fact. There's nothing stopping an amateur from uploading it. But a studio isn't supposed to be involved in stuff like that.

Because it will take Visa out of the equation Bitcoin is going to change things (when it matures). For example I could start up a Bitcoin-only site where amateurs upload videos and I'd pay them via Bitcoin, and users pay via Bitcoin to see the full version of the video. But even in a scenario like that I'd have to see what liabilities I'd have if the performers were high, etc. But I think a lot of the liability could be offloaded to the amateur producers.

The hook up site is a great idea and has potential but to truly generate numbers it would need to be BB and safe sex, cater for everyone ... at the moment I have to visit a few sites to cover all bases ... squirt/bbrt/grindr/craigslist etc A single hook up site that did everything the others do has got a real chance of being big ... but obviously its also high risk given start up costs and the high chance of failure as a late entrant to the market ...

I don't have what it takes to compete with the big boys, but I think I do have what I need to compete in bareback and with bareback going mainstream that could become pretty big. Yes, you can find bareback on the major sites, but the beauty of a bareback site is you don't need to negotiate condom use. If I'm as successful as BBRT I'll be happy.

My boyfriend and I sat down last night to talk strategy. The conclusion is I don't have the money to do something really big. There's something big I'd really like to do, but it would take a lot of money that I just don't have. So the strategy needs to be incremental. I'm not positioned properly to do hunks & studs, but I need to diversify in bareback and a hookup site is the next step. Yet GermanFucker is right - BZ is too "dark" to be broadly expanded - a hookup site should be lighter and more welcoming to average guys. And I will implement my scraper tubes as well. They should have been done years ago, but better late than never - they'll largely run on autopilot anyway.

[coyotesmiles]

Sorry, I was in San Francisco for the weekend, yes partially for Dore Alley or whatever...I keep forgetting all the different official names...but mostly for some other matters.

Anyway, I didn't take my laptop so I deliberately ignored the web from Friday until Monday and then since then I've been in deep contemplation...which for me mostly amounts to watching lots of porn...yeah...not gonna lie about that.

I don't mean to blow of this discussion, I just tend to be very through and precise when I'm responding to something and since, as would be expected, it seems like I've raised some hackles or something, I will be composing my replies a little more carefully...which for me can actually take days at times...sorry.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will really anything else...

Case in point, rudeboyxxx-

If you think I'm displaying aggression, you've seen nothing yet. Aggression from me is when I have burnt your buildings to the ground, salted the earth in every direction, killed every last one of your females, and left you in your own filth mourning your stupidity.

Earlier? That was actually me on my pretty much best behavior...minus the Sunday suit.

[bbfan74]

TIM & Machofucker are the BB brand leaders in my eyes and I suppose I would consider paying for exceptional vids there ( a particular star or scenario that gets me hot ).

I agree with you. Despite all the free porn on tube sites, I still like to subscribe to a porn website every now and then. My favorite website would be Machofucker because they have A) cooler actors than TIM (and many of the MF actors only later turned up in TIM videos), I like the aggreesive tops and bottoms who seem to be in pain and C) You can download the scenes and watch them whenever you like.

That's a big plus for me. You pay for a one month subscription on Machofucker $29 and you can download and keep hundreds of great fuck scenes, whereas TIM scenes need to be bought individually and for $29 you will most likely end up with three scenes only!

So maybe you can start your own porn web site? Although I assume you would need a lot of money to set it up.

Maybe you could start with a TIM-like concept, i.e. charge for individual scenes and when you have enough scenes (let's say 20) you could make it a subscription site with a monthly fee.

[bbfan74]

Oh and as far as the "poz" thing is going.

For me it is more of a turn-off than a turn-on. I know there are some people out there who find this extremely hot, but I believe those people are very vocal but still a minority. So if you really want to follow the bareback-goes-mainstream-path (which I also absolutely believe in) then you should keep the "poz"-thing to a minimum. Don't get me wrong: I love when a guy gets bred but I don't like the poz-talk... so just leave it to the imagination, I would say.

[metro119]

I definitely think you could monetize the poz fetish stuff. Remember loads of guys get turned on by it but wouldn't ever post about it. However they would probably love to watch poz themed vids. I would definitely pay for high quality poz on neg content.

[bbfan74]

I definitely think you could monetize the poz fetish stuff. Remember loads of guys get turned on by it but wouldn't ever post about it. However they would probably love to watch poz themed vids. I would definitely pay for high quality poz on neg content.

First of all, I think it's only a small handful of very vocal people who are turned on by the poz fetish. For me it's more of a turn off.

And you say "loads" of guys are turned on by it but would not post about it. If they do not even post about it, what makes you think they would purchase poz fetish porn?