Using "all-male" rather than "gay" unless used for self-identity

[hungry_hole]

I don't agree with the use of the term "gay" other than when referring to self-identity ("I am gay") because in most cases the correct and more accurate term is "all-male" or "men who have sex with men."

I'm loving the book "Unlimited Intimacy" by Tim Dean but I don't understand why he keeps referring to "gay men" when he talks about men who have sex with men.

What about someone like poptronic who recently tested poz and has to deal with not only his family but his girlfriend. He's not a "gay man." I've been having all kinds of sex with men and no sex with women and I don't consider myself a "gay man" either. For starters, I don't feel any different from any other man or boy when I was a boy myself. I grew up as a regular boy and never doubting my identity as a boy because I saw myself just like a regular boy. So I can't identify myself with a group of men who claim to have been "different" from the other boys. Hence, I couldn't say I'm gay. I have never felt oppressed or humiliated about my identity when I was growing up so I can't relate to this aspect of "being gay" either.

Using "all-male" is more appropriate because it's inclusive. An "all-male sauna" is for bisexual men, bicurious men, gay men, men with fetishes, men who don't identify themselves with any of the sexual identities, men who were too drunk, etc. An all-male sauna is for men and the men who go to these saunas are men who like having sex with men or watching it, cruising with other men, etc.

In his book Tim Dean keeps using "gay men" instead of men who have sex with men (MSM) but at the same time he's concerned that barebacking is tainting the reputation of the gay identity. If he only stopped using "gay men" to refer to men who have sex with men then the reputation of the gay identity would be unaffected.

[rawTOP]

MSM (Men who have Sex with Men) is the term I use. Gay, Straight and Bisexual are about the relationships you have – not the sex.

[bb1991]

I've never liked the word "gay". I always felt the word is trying to label us as something 'different', and had connotations of camp, effeminate behaviour, liking pink and fashion, hating sport etc. My personality doesn't fit those "queer" stereotypes, nor do any other guys I know. I'm a man like any other and my interests and personality are not shaped by who I have sex or a relationship with.

I am not gay: I am a human being like everybody else.

And I don't think I'm alone. Judging by how many feel the need to put "straight-acting" in their online profiles, I think the majority of MSM wish to distance themselves from that "gay" label, the camp stereotype and the "queer culture".

In fact, my local STD Clinic doesn't use the gay label, only "Men who have Sex with Men".

I recently read a very insulting article about what they were deeming "gay shame". It was written because the "queer culture" is dieing in the UK, and the article was alleging that people are shunning it because they are ashamed to be gay! How about the complete opposite: being "gay" is so normal and accepted that it is not the definitive part of their personality anymore?

How ridiculous to believe people's sexual preference dictates their personality and because you like men you should also like drag acts, and the rest of "queer culture". If gay people can be homophobic, the people behind that article are homophobic.

Your sexuality affects your personality as much as your hair colour affects your intelligence!

[Rayne]

There's no real reason to call your sexuality anything in particular. I would advocate the removal of gay/straight/bi/etc. if people could simply get over the problem with labelling everything. It's annoying to me, because it mostly gets people like me into trouble with certain groups of people. For example: I can call myself bisexual, but then that implies that I'm attracted to both men and women; when the reality is I'm attracted to mostly femininity and the younger boys, with the attraction of certain male types. The shitty part about this is that people would say that's mostly "gynephilia", but I call it "what I am attracted to". I've also had sex with people I didn't find that attractive because I was in the moment, and I thought I'd try pushing myself into it because I wanted to see if it would change my tastes. It didn't do anything but make me cum, but that doesn't mean I am more or less for/against it than before.

I never understood the identification problem most people have, and I think it stems from two simple things: I was adopted, and I was forced to "blend in" when I was trying to develop my independence. I think people need to stop labelling things so much, but that's me. Being gay is just a term now, it doesn't really mean to those that have actually evolved; just like being liberal, conservative, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, male, female, Asian, "american" (sorry, but I find that name a joke), or even saying your an Eskimo. There's no reason to label people, gender, or sexuality unless you're using the name for scientific research, or something that NEEDS classification.

We are just people; we don't need some word to identify us to everyone else. Terms/labels are what make people assume, and if we stop using them, we'd stop hating each other so damned much. And yes... this has been proven with psychological research that has been ignored for years *rolls eyes*

/gets off soap box

Sorry to bore everyone >.>

[NiceHard1]

Well-said, and great discussion.

MSM is the preferred term used by public health and medical fields to identify exactly that - men having sex with men - specifically since many msm do not identify as gay, bi, queer, or any other collective community term.

All-male is similarly a good term for an establishment that wants to welcome all men, without regard to how people identify themselves. I find it interesting that all-male can sometimes imply a gay following, or could also be used to imply male but not gay.

But regarding the book - I do think that it is really gay men who identify with the term barebacking, as an intentional choice for having sex. Some stigmatize it as wrong, or taboo, while others of us glamorize it; Either way, it is only the gay world that has created the hype around it. I don't think that straight men, even those having sex with other men (without condoms), think about the terminology for what they are doing, as they just consider it the normal way of having sex. I think it highlights the double standard. Look at porn - straight porn does not identify itself as "bareback" or "safer sex" - it just is what it is - and that is usually sans latex.

Language is a powerful tool. And it is great to think about how we use it.

Edited January 31, 2014 by NiceHard1

[evilqueerpig]

I identify as QUEER because it's bold and in your face, like me!  Gay is too nice and polite.  MSM just sounds too clinical.

[westendboy]

Gay is an identity and world view I developed over time through friendships, shared social spaces and cultural references with other queer men and women. Most of my friends are gay, out to everyone in their lives and seeking romantic partnerships with someone of the same sex. 

I am also a total bottom and generally seek out dominant, masculine tops for sex (or they seek me out). This is not a scientific survey since I don't know anything about the anonymous guys, but I'd estimate that about 1/3 are publicly living as straight men. They're not exactly closeted or ashamed of having sex with other men, it's just that they are more comfortable in a hetero social world because of their personality, interests and demeanor. They may or may not have female partners but they're not really interested in dating a man and they only top.

Another third are formerly straight and now bi-identified but mostly having gay sex because they're pigs and it's more convenient. (Crystal may have played in a part in their rapid transformation.) Luckily for me most of them still top most of the time.

The final third are gay men who are top or vers-top and usually more macho than the average gay man and more comfortable around the straight/bi MSM crowd, but still  identifiable as gay when they open thier mouths. 

I don't think this is a typical breakdown for everyone as it depends on your type and where you live. When I lived in a big city and didn't party, it was 100% gay men. When I began partying and having group sex I started meeting more genuinely straight and bi guys who were horny bastards and openminded to what sex with men could provide. When I moved to a more rural area, I met even more men who had no interest in living a gay life but who were very much interested in pounding the fuck out of my hole. I have to say it was refreshing and I'm having some of the best sex of my life. They don't care that I'm gay, half the time bathhouse hookups ask if I'm married (to a woman), but they do care that I'm a faggot cocksucker who will do filthy things that would make even the town whore blush.

[Guest]

When I was young my friends brother asked me if I was a homosexual. I froze, not knowing how to answer I denied it up and down. Then the gay term was being used and that was worse in my opinion.  In high school we were called faggots, homos or queers. Now it's referred as LGBT as if it's some exclusive club or something.

I was born in the wrong time.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Muscledadbod