HIV and Suicide

[TigerMilner]

Dude, seriously, if you don't have time to take away to "disappear" for therapy then you don't have time to commit suicide. I mean don't you think people would notice your absence? We are talking about life and death here and you are talking about appearances and missing work.

Tiger, thank you for the referral to the Pride Institute. Unfortunately, with everything I have going on with work, there is just no way I could take that time off of work. Even if I could, I'm not sure how I could slip past my friends and family and just tell them that I'm disappearing for a couple of weeks.

I think there are a few sources of misery, but this HIV diagnosis has been the most major one and has brought all the others to the surface. As you said, this may be one of the first things that frees me and allows me to be who I am meant to be. I have thought about that. In all honesty, I think to be who I want to be, I will have to move away from where I am now. That's something I have thought about doing- maybe an east to west coast move. I don't really have the means to do that right now, but it is something I am considering.

[Cumfilledbottomboi]

This post is a cry for help. Go check yourself into a facility. You need treatment now. You can have a great long life as a poz man.

[VersatileBreeder]

Dude, seriously, if you don't have time to take away to "disappear" for therapy then you don't have time to commit suicide. I mean don't you think people would notice your absence? We are talking about life and death here and you are talking about appearances and missing work.

Tiger, I'm trying to live my life as normally as possible and part of that entails not ending it. Seriously. Taking time off from work is just not a feasibility right now, I have A LOT going on- two jobs: a career as a teacher, a bartender on the side (3 jobs if you count the real estate business my father is trying to partner me into). Oh and I am taking a class for which I get my full teaching license. Taking time off right now is not possible. I couldn't even afford to financially if I wanted to. Time off = No income. No income = Bills don't get paid. I know it sounds like I'm probably stressing myself out having so much on my plate at the moment, but the fact of the matter is I consider it better to be like this right now because it keeps my mind preoccupied.

I am SURE there are other ways I could get through this without having to go check into a rehab facility.

[Poz1956]

Some groups have a structured topic for the night.

Most are a little more free-form. They often start with a check-in on how everyone's week has been. New people are asked to tell a little about themselves. (No you don't have to share your whole story - Name, Bi, Known since January is enough) With most someone in the group shares an issue they're having at the moment, and others respond with how they've dealt with the same kind of problem. It's sort of like brainstorming about how to attack a challenge that person is facing.

At the moment, you might not feel you are able to share your situation with the group. And that's ok. But just being there, meeting other Poz people, and hearing that they have problems & fears similar to yours, puts your mind at rest. Right now you feel alone & lost in the world. Going to one of these groups would prove you are not alone.

I think you'll find that most newly diagnosed guys, at some point, feel exactly like you do right now.

It's pretty clear that there are a whole whack of people here, that are on your side. And all of us are offering help. If you don't feel you can go to a group, call any of the BZ guys that have sent you their number. We're pulling for you, and are here to get you through this. You are not alone!

I've been where you are now, more than once. Several times actually. I've made it out the other side of the mindset you're in. You will too.

[bearbandit]

Just curious to any guys who have been to these support groups for poz guys... What goes on at those meetings? What do they talk about and what do they do? I would probably be able to have a better inclination about going if I knew what to expect before going but I really have no clue what to expect.

The group I go to is a two day retreat because there isn't a group within fifty miles. Two models I've seen and experienced is a very agenda-based approach where the facilitator wants to get a certain number of facts across (almost a 12 step approach). Always room for questions and exploring a topic deeper, whether it be legal issues, how to deal with side effects should they happen, why triple (or more) therapy, how to tell people you've got HIV and how to deal with their reactions. In an agenda based group the facilitator tends to have an eye on the clock in their desire to get information over. It's a good way to start out but a bit like going to night school.

I prefer emotion-based groups when the facilitator's job is more to keep someone from taking all the group's time, unless that person really needs that time. A credo of that setup is that time given to others is given ungrudgingly. A while ago I was in a group where practically the entire hour was spent on one man who had caught HIV through being raped. Note that this was part of a weekend retreat: we had the luxury of time. Even so towards the last few minutes of the group the facilitator asked if anyone wanted to bring anything else up, though it might have to go into the next session.

There are a couple of outdoor-based groups in the UK, though my days of hiking for miles are behind me (if there's a number of us wanting to use the staircase I make a point of going last because of my walking speed after breaking my ankle). The point of groups like that is, I suppose, simply spending time with other PwHIV which is valuable in itself. It's very liberating to be able to let the conversation wander where it will, including discussions of which doctor is better for what, how you suddenly can't drink red wine again or whatever.

Yes some sex goes on, but it's not what I'd think of bar-driven sex. I know two guys who live at opposite ends of England and only see each other at the quarterly retreat weekends. Because this weekend is residential, you've got two evenings in the bar (well, I always head off to the bar) where as much discussion goes on as goes on in the groups, which isn't to say that there isn't room for messing around. Last weekend we started playing with our phones: I was hit on by a guy a couple of hundred miles away, and it was only the following night when he started conversation again when I was home that he said he's only been diagnosed in January and had hit on me because I always disclose on profiles. Had I been at home I'd have been at the PC rather than playing with Growlr.

The most important thing about any sort of support group is that there's that whole layer stripped away: we each know that everyone in the room has HIV, however we acquired it. I consider myself to be pretty much totally out about my HIV, but I'll tell a taxi driver that I use a walking stick because of thinning bones and a broken ankle and omit the fact that the thinning bones are a very rare side effect of an HIV drug.

In the end, the only way to find out the answer is to go along and find out. Don't go by first impressions: go to several meetings before you decide whether this is right for you. You might hit them on a bad night, or on a night where no-one feels like talking or whatever. It's a bit like trying something new sexually: the first time nerves can put you off and block your enjoyment...

[rawTOP]

Sorry for being so late to this discussion (I've been playing hookie from my moderation duties). But a couple of thoughts…

Cut EVERYONE out of your life who won't support you and love you. They should be nothing more to you than casual acquaintances who you smile at and then ignore when you don't absolutely have to interact with them. You mentioned your father is trying to bring you into his real estate business. If he doesn't love you and support you as a poz gay man, then that is not a good environment for you. I've gone through this with big parts of my family. It's not easy, but trust me, trying to get people to change is a complete waste of time. Just move on and do what's best for you.

You then need to actively work to rebuild your life. It won't be easy, but when you get to the end you'll be one of those people who say "becoming poz was the best thing that ever happened to me". Why? Because it forced you to take control of your life and live a life that's worth living. You can do it, and you'll be better for having done it. But it won't be easy.

In the meantime get professional counseling from a gay friendly therapist.

[GermanFucker]

Tiger, I'm trying to live my life as normally as possible and part of that entails not ending it. Seriously. Taking time off from work is just not a feasibility right now, I have A LOT going on- two jobs: a career as a teacher, a bartender on the side (3 jobs if you count the real estate business my father is trying to partner me into). Oh and I am taking a class for which I get my full teaching license. Taking time off right now is not possible. I couldn't even afford to financially if I wanted to. Time off = No income. No income = Bills don't get paid. I know it sounds like I'm probably stressing myself out having so much on my plate at the moment, but the fact of the matter is I consider it better to be like this right now because it keeps my mind preoccupied.

I am SURE there are other ways I could get through this without having to go check into a rehab facility.

First of all: Teaching and bartending are good jobs if you are depressed, as they provide a constant stream of human contact. But if you are seriously considering suicide (there is a somewhat of distinction between considering suicide and "suicidal gestures" which are a just a cry for help and attention, albeit it's not all black and white), you should be equally serious about getting help, because you need it. Even just 45 minutes of therapy every week can help - A LOT.

You also have to ask yourself what is really important. We all think we need certain stuff when in reality we earn money to look good for others, be it a hot outfit for a date or a bigger car so one's neighbor will be envious. Your mental health should be a higher priority than that.

You don't have to become Ghandi. But you should take a step back from the rat race and focus on what really matters.

[lower_bucks_bottom]

Poptronics,

I go to a group at the Mazzoni Center in Philadelphia, http://mazzonicenter.org/content/living-hivaids. It meets every Tuesday at 6:30 - 7:30 and then most of us go out to eat afterwards. What usually happens is the facilitator will ask if anyone has any topics they would like to discuss and if someone does they will just start talking. We all will listen and try to make useful and encouraging comments. Some times people will bring in article to discuss. Last week we had a Dr from the health center answering questions. There are people there who have been poz over 20 years and the just diagnosed, so there will be someone who is in, or has been in a similar situation to you. I think you are in NJ so you might want to try making it some Tuesday.

[barefootbob]

I can relate to a degree with what you're going through. I'm not poz but I have a genetic condition called neurofibromatosis. If you remember a picture of an Itialian guy covered in bumps being hugged by the pope, that is what I have. There is no treatment or cure. I did not show signs of it until I was 23, buy the time I was 27 it had left me with erectile disfunction. I'm 57, the fibromas (bumps) have kept people away, coupled with the ED I don't get a lot of action. I'm not suicidal per se, I'm not lifeacidal meaning I don't give a shit if I live or die. The only thing which gets me out of bed are my two cats. I have no family so if something happened to me I worry about what would happen to them. Silly I know but they are my life. I get down when I go to the gym and see guys with smooth skin remembering what I looked like before NF. I get down, I get pissed off with the why me attitude, then I see the guy in wheelchair that might be all of 3ft tall. His outward appearance shows he lives with it and makes the best of it. I then realize I am lucky aside from the NF : I'm 57 and in great shape physically, no other medical issues, I'm lean, have a full head of sandy colored hair (no dying it for me), all my teeth and all the marbles are rolling around just fine. So yeah what I have sucks and wish I didn't have it, but I also look at the plusses I do have and go on with the day.

I don't know how old you are but guessing mid 20's early 30's. You still have much to do, much to see and much to experience. Please don't give up sir. Things will work out for you, I know it is hard yo see now, but take one day at a time. Peace be with you young master, I am in your corner and on your side. ((HUGS))

[VersatileBreeder]

Hey guys, just checking in. A big thank you again to all for the support. Sorry I disappeared off this site for a week- life has been INSANELY BUSY and I can't wait for April 15 to come and go... That's the day it seems like everything in my life is due between work, school and taxes so I am just trying to get that all squared. Once that's over, I have a shortened Spring Break (five day weekend) due to snow days. I am going to try to reply back to everyone who offered their support on this thread.

Here goes.......

[VersatileBreeder]

I know this is going to be hard for you to realize at this point, but HIV really isnt going to get in the way of anything. I know LOTS of HIV+ people in all walks of life. Some are very successful politicians, some doctors, some lawyers, some musicians, some actors, and honestly you probably know some of them.

Also think of HIV as a catalyst of change. With treatment, you are not going to get any more sick than you have before, its that simple. However, you can boost your immune system any number of ways, from healthy eating, quitting smoking, to exercise. However, don't stop enjoying life!! Think about all that is still out there, what you havent done yet, and what you still can do, because HIV hasn't changed any of that. There really is next to nothing an HIV+ person cant do today, the treatment just works that well.

PM me if you have any other concerns or jsut want to talk.

wood, I like your optimism. Though you are neg and on PrEP, you seem to have a pretty good idea of what the struggles feel like for a newly diagnosed poz person and you offer compassion based on that. I have been daydreaming about when the day comes that I will be out of this depression zone and won't worry about HIV constantly every single day (though overall it has been getting better and I have been worrying less and less). I know some guys think that HIV "sets them free." I don't think like that, but on the same token, I don't want to constantly believe that HIV is going to shackle me in life. I just want to be free of all the emotional angst.

[VersatileBreeder]

Today I went to the funeral of a friend who killed himself. The grief for those left behind following suicide is terrible. You have friends and family. Let them help you.

libertyx, I am very sorry for your loss. I am cognizant of the aftermath that will result for my family and friends if I were to take my own life. At my worst points in the recent weeks, that pretty much was all that kept me from doing it, which is sad. I feel like things will get better and I am trying to take the steps to make that happen.

[VersatileBreeder]

That's the depression talking, which IMHO is your main problem right now. The HIV can be dealt with with meds. And even if it's inconvenient to go on meds for you right now, you still have plenty of time. Your immediate problem right now is depression. Which alters your brain chemistry so that you can't think clearly. It tells you that there's a perfect life out there and you're not worth it.

Well that's bullshit. Everyone has shit to deal with, myself included. Life is messy and sometimes dirty. But that's no reason to feel shameful or worthless. Of course HIV changes a person. So did the heart defect of one of my family members. Being told one might need a transplant soon makes one rethink your options as well. So did the cancer of a close friend, who had both testicles removed at a young age. So did disabilities, autoimmune diseases, accidents, heck one might even say that goes for marrying the wrong partner as well. Not being a gay barebacker doesn't mean your life is perfect. And HIV really isn't different. Don't let anyone tell you one disease is noble and one is dirty. They're all just pains in the ass. But then again, theyre all just things that happen in one's life, and we can adapt to that. Because there are other things as well. Finding the right partner. Building a house. Getting a promotion.

But right now you can't see that. Because your head is all fucked up by the depression. And even without further suicide attempts, living with depression has a significant impact on your health. Probably more so than HIV. Just like treatment for HIV, you need help navigating your way back to mental health. Let me repeat: Your real problem right now is NOT HIV. It's the fact that the shock has rewired your brain and you're not thinking straight. So best see a THERAPIST. You need one right now.

Other than that: Don't shut yourself away from life, instead keep your daily routines. But do things that feel good, even if it's just reading a book while sunbathing in the garden. Approach the changes in your life in a sober way. If you can't make up your mind (which HIV specialist to see, when to go on meds, what insurance to get, whom to tell, etc....) because emotions cloud your judgement, "fake it till you make it", i.e. just act as if it weren't a big deal, as if you were giving advice to a friend and go with the most logical choice. Chances are, it's the right one.

And once you realize, as you will if you just give yourself a little time (with the help of friends and hopefully a therapist), that you're not defective, that it isn't your fault and that you don't owe your family, calmness will set in and YOU WILL BE FINE.

GermanFucker, I agree with everything you said here. Depression is the main problem, but worry is also driving a large part of it too. For some reason, I can't shake this worry that I might not respond to meds the way one would hope. Not sure what is driving those fears, but I guess it's like my father has been telling me for years- I tend to worry about problems before I even know that there is actually a problem to worry about. So we will see. I am going to be getting on meds very soon. We will see what happens.

[VersatileBreeder]

pop, well stated post there. I can understand that HIV diagnosis feels like a nail in the coffin. But maybe I can reframe this a bit. At a point in maturing we all have to convert from the "if I die" mindset to the "when I die" mindset. It isn't automatic. But at a point, ideally, all of us come to terms with the fact none of us is ********. And, ideally, we come to realize that it isn't the end that exposes who we are, but what we do in the middle before that nail goes in. You present some compelling information about related patterns that has you over emphasizing HIV right now.

Others have had other diseases which, for a time had them pretty much in the same place. I recall a time when I was in the ER, semi conscious, docs were talking near me thinking I wasn't hearing anything; when I heard them say "we're losing him". In retrospect I'm surprised I didn't crap the gurnee right there; thinking death was knocking on my door. Another ER time, I was bleeding out and hit that euphoria stage (a point just before you actually bleed out when everything actually gets peaceful). Each time what tweaked in me was that I wasn't ready to leave just yet.

So, with you POP, where do you stand, HIV notwithstanding? Were it not for the current virus in you; are you done anyway? If your first internal response to that is along the lines of "not no, but hell no"; then its time to take action. What city is closest to you? Not all counseling will empty your already empty wallet. So no need to put that concern at the forefront. But it is time to connect you to better resources...

JizzDumpWI, I am definitely going to be seeking out the counseling necessary to get my life back on track. Though I am very close to NYC, I don't think I need to make the trek in and out of there to get the help I need. I'm sure I can get it closer to home. Going to look into it once my crazy busy life slows down a bit, which will be soon.

[VersatileBreeder]

That was one of the reasons I suggested a support group: who are the experts in living successfully with HIV? The answer is people with HIV. I've lived more than half my life with HIV - I spent the weekend at a retreat for PwHIV and tried to count up the years of life with HIV we represented. I couldn't. I'd guess the average "HIV age" at about ten years, but then there were the spanners in the works like me (34 years). You need to talk to other people in the same situation as you, not someone with letters after their name who is very probably HIV unknown. People who'd nod when you say you always carry (I don't know the American) elastoplasts in case you cut yourself (took me a year to get out of that habit).

I never had the greatest immune system either. If a bug was going round I got it. But, because of the way we're monitored, in the UK at least it's now being reckoned that PwHIV in treatment have a slightly longer life expectancy than the general population. Depending on your point of view it can be either a condition or a disease: mismanage your medication, and it'll become a disease, but if you stick to your pills it can be reduced to a condition. It really is a case of take your anti-retrovirals, and have your doctor look over your bloods every few months. Meanwhile enjoy life. Okay I bitch sometimes about the pills, but that's because early meds were prescribed in overdose and I had an extremely rare reaction to another - my ex-doctor took his eye off the ball. The damage done is irreversible. If we had a more American-style health system, I'd sue. But with socialised medicine if I sued and won I'd just be taking money out of a system designed to help everyone.

It's your choice: you can spend every day having the living shit scared out of you, or you can do something about it. At present you're in what I call lukewarm bath syndrome: it's the middle of winter and the bath water is getting cold and you know there's no more hot water. Instead of a couple of minutes shivering as you dry yourself to get dressed, you snuggle down into the water trying to extract every last bit of heat from it. You know the sensible thing to do is have a couple of minutes shivering as you dry off and get dressed.

My suggestion: find out where the nearest newly diagnosed group is (if necessary book a hotel room for the night) and go to it.

bearbandit, I am soon going to be attending the HIV+ support group near me. Again, it's not something I should need to travel very far to go to. I agree with what you said about having the choice to spend every day having the shit scared out of me or doing something about it. I have broken it down to this...

When someone is diagnosed poz, it is a major life change. And just like with any change, there are three ways for a person to respond to it. They can either accept it, ignore it, or resist it. In the case of being HIV poz, if a person accepts it, they are choosing to live with it and make the changes in their life to adapt to it and effectively manage it (e.g. going on meds, routinely seeing an ID specialist, etc.). If a person chooses to ignore it, well, that person is basically going to sooner or later suffer a demise by burying their head in the sand and not taking the action necessary to manage the virus. A person can try to resist the change brought on poz diagnosis and in this case, that isn't so much ignoring it, but rather, having a constant internal war with themselves for having acquired the virus and fighting with him/herself, all the while failing to accept the gravity of the diagnosis. Though a person in this scenario may go on meds and maintain physical health, they will never fully live in peace with themselves.

In the very beginning, I was resisting the change associated with becoming poz. I have realized that the only way I will be able to live healthily and comfortably with HIV is to accept the change. That is what I am working on right now. But it definitely is hard.