"You clean ???" after the fact

[hungry_hole]

At sauna last night...

I`m about to step out and he grabs my wrist and says in panick "you clean ? right ?"

Of course, no worry I said, fuckin pleased with myself.

I'll never lie before the fact. but after, HELL YES

I think you were right in lying about your status, first because the question was asked after the fact.

But also, I've argued in this forum before, that saunas are places that can be used to make fantasies become reality, so it's recommended to take with a grain of salt what guys say in anonymous settings. Maybe the bottom was already poz but role playing at being a slutty negative bottom. Or he gets off on taking poz loads. I've been asked if I'm a cop and I say yes to be part of the other guy's fantasy.

Regarding the legal issue, yes, in some places muscmtl could be charged. But I doubt a guy like this bottom would be willing to bring forth a charge. "Oh, yeah, I had my ass up, door of the room open..." Again, in anonymous settings these laws stop making sense.

Law makers never think of a case like this, saunas, darkrooms. They think of two people who know each other, start dating, have sex but one of the partners is HIV+ and never informs the other partner. In a case like this I totally agree with such law, and HIV+ people have to inform their partners about their HIV status.

[muscmtl]

Breeding zone is the best

All your answers don't only make me feel good its fukin therapy

Steve

[HardhatBB]

realley the only men that ask me about my status are the married BI men that cruise anon sex. -my favorite

usually when asked i either say neg (last test years ago)...

or i say nothing at all, stuff my meat back in my pants, and go

[Dutch-bottom]

But why lying about your status?

[bbzh]

I struggle with the scenario presented here. I'd probably tell the guy what he wants to hear not because I want to intentionally deceive him per se, but to spare myself the drama of him falling apart at the idea of taking a poz load. But here is where I stand firm: I don't think anyone in an anonymous situation is entitled to know the other person's medical history. If the idea of pozzing scares you that damn much, choose abstinence or a condom. So you don't want to know my name, but you want to know about my health, even though you are knowingly and willingly taking loads in a sauna? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit!!! It's guys like the one in this story (who took the load) who end up pozzing people. And he fucking gets a free pass because his ass hasn't been tested. While the one who knows his status, and is probably on meds, and is probably non-infectious and didn't stealth is the villain. Makes sense to me. Not!

[wood]

I`m about to step out and he grabs my wrist and says in panick "you clean ? right ?"

Of course, no worry I said, fuckin pleased with myself.

I'll never lie before the fact. but after, HELL YES

How about you guys

Steve

Im not condoning either behavior, Personally I dont think anyone should ever lie about status. If you told him the truth he may have went and got PEP. With that said, he obviously wasnt taking time to make correct decisions either, and he really should if he is attempting to not get HIV or other STI's.

Only point I will mention is that (in some jurisdictions) you could in theory be prosecuted for not telling him in advance. (My understanding is that some jurisdictions will go after you even if the discussion had taken place.). Not sure about the laws in Montreal. Of course, considering the circumstances (sounds like he was taking multiple loads and most likely this wasn't his first time), if he could ID you there could be legal ramifications.

When I tested positive some years ago, it was not possible to identify who had infected me let alone all my sexual partners. I wasn't "looking" for the bug but I wasn't really avoiding it either.

This is the main issue, I know this isn't popular on here because it seems like so much of this site has become fantasy based, but stealthing is illegal in almost every place. People can and do get prosecuted for not telling their sexual partner about their HIV status. The other thing is that the onus is ALWAYS on the person with HIV to let the other person know their status. While it was very silly for the other person not to have a conversation with the OP before hand, it still doesn't justify your behavior in the eyes of the law. Really IMO, there are PLENTY of men out there to have sex with. let them all know your status to avoid any repercussions

[mancuntt]

So if you are undetectable bttm in bathhouse taking anon raw dicks ... do you have to tell whoever fuck you ( in that club) that u are positive ? So where else you can have "less talking more action" sex.....????

[wood]

So if you are undetectable bttm in bathhouse taking anon raw dicks ... do you have to tell whoever fuck you ( in that club) that u are positive ? So where else you can have "less talking more action" sex.....????

Technically with any sexual exposure you should. With that said, The law really hasn't updated with the times. An undetectable bottom on meds poses little risk to a neg top. Even an undetectable top poses a fairly small risk to a neg bottom.

However the law is pretty crystal clear on this, you must tell your partners, end of discussion. Now I doubt a district attorney would choose to prosecute say a case with an undetectable dick sucker, who sucks a neg guys dick then he freaks out. However, if a person brings up a situation where a HIV+ top not on meds, lied about his status, and infected a bottom, well, they would certainly prosecute that.

Look I hate to be a "kill joy" on the fantasy portion of this site, but the laws are clear, you cant knowingly expose someone to HIV, let alone lie about it. I dont want to criminalize HIV, but I also agree with the context behind it. A good friend of mine has been battling depression for over a years and a half since his diagnosis where he was likely stealthed, because he always used protection, and always asked about HIV status and other STI's, and not just "are you clean"

Sex is great guys, but sex in real life should be informed IMO. Fantasy should be left at that.

[hungry_hole]

Look I hate to be a "kill joy" on the fantasy portion of this site, but the laws are clear, you cant knowingly expose someone to HIV, let alone lie about it. I dont want to criminalize HIV, but I also agree with the context behind it. A good friend of mine has been battling depression for over a years and a half since his diagnosis where he was likely stealthed, because he always used protection, and always asked about HIV status and other STI's, and not just "are you clean"

Sex is great guys, but sex in real life should be informed IMO. Fantasy should be left at that.

I don't know the details of your friend's infection, but if someone is really worried about HIV and other STIs he should stay away from impersonal/anonymous encounters (saunas, gloryholes, darkrooms) and only have sex with guys he knows relatively well. Then the law can protect him. But this law makes no sense in the case of sex with strangers.

This law is crystal clear but is intended for situations where people know each others and who treat each other as people and not a hole to breed. Most lawmakers probably have no idea what goes on in saunas and other sex clubs.

[wood]

I don't know the details of your friend's infection, but if someone is really worried about HIV and other STIs he should stay away from impersonal/anonymous encounters (saunas, gloryholes, darkrooms) and only have sex with guys he knows relatively well. Then the law can protect him. But this law makes no sense in the case of sex with strangers.

This law is crystal clear but is intended for situations where people know each others and who treat each other as people and not a hole to breed. Most lawmakers probably have no idea what goes on in saunas and other sex clubs.

Without going into all his details it wasnt an anonymous encounter.

Heres the thing that I dont think people on here realize when they talk about breeding, stealthing, and infecting others. The vast majority of people DO NOT want HIV, even if they are participating in risky behavior. Thats like saying every smoker is planning on getting cancer and is completely okay with it.

Like I said before I think many, if not the majority of people on here get stuck in the fantasy portion of this site without actually thinking about what they are saying, and what it could mean to another person.

The OP's situation is a bit convoluted because his sex partner didnt ask any questions prior to intercourse, which was his fault. HOWEVER, he shouldnt lie about his status even if its after the fact. I dont condone complete dont ask dont tell situations, but if thats what each person wants fine. But, one should never lie IMO.

[Poz1956]

The other thing is that the onus is ALWAYS on the person with HIV to let the other person know their status.

As a Neg person it is very easy to say that. And yes that's what some of the laws are writtem. Others are so vague that there are Poz people in jail for spitting, mutual masturbation, or getting fucked with a condom. The law where I live says that there must be a "realistic possibility of infection." BB would constitute that of course.

I haven't taken much of a step into barebacking yet. Just a couple of times with other Pozzies so far. So most my comments are in the context of Safe Sex.

Morally, I feel that advising a partner of my status is the correct thing to do. In the real, world most Neg guys are so totally lacking in knowledge, that I have to teach HIV 101 almost every time I disclose. That's a buzz kill. Many Neggies totally freak at the mere mention of a guy being Poz. There are only so many times you handle being told "You're trying to Murder me", being called a Psychopath, having immediate moral judgment passed based on nothing more than three letters and a mathematical symbol, or receiving some other "Ewww, Icccck" response. You really begin to question "Is honest the best policy?" I'll spell out the whole story in the "worst reactions" thread, but I've had one case where I disclosed online before sex. The guy agreed to meet, but it was a set-up for a bashing, because I had revealed my status. Some Neggies are INSANE when it come to HIV.

So in theory, a Pozzie should disclose ahead of time, because in theory, the Neg guy is educated, discusses it calmly, will make a logical decision, and give informed consent. Or maybe he'll politely decline the encounter. In theory, we should be treated exactly the same as a Neg guy. In theory, we wouldn't be constantly pummelled with Stigma, that sometimes boarders on hate speach.

In reality, it means I'm left alone, with my dick in my hands, my self esteem is shattered, and kicked to the curb like yesterday's trash.

It's all well and good to say "There's plenty of fish in the sea," if you live in the ocean of a large city, or are in a bathhouse that's full to capacity. But if you're an old trout in a little pond, and opportunities don't come along very often, the "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" internal debate becomes much more difficult.

I dare any Neg guy out there to tell the next ten people he tries to hook up with that he isn't "Clean" - that he's Poz. Wait until it's a there is agreement to get naked and nasty, or until you're face to face before you reveal your "secret." It will be easy for you to say it because you know it's not true. I think it would be a good experience for you to see and feel how the real world reacts. Then some of you might know why it's is a difficult conversation to start.

I used to say I've never lied when I've been asked. A mid-20's "straight" guy wanted to suck his first dick. He didn't ask, and I didn't tell. He only sucked on it for a few minutes, and I didn't cum in his mouth. Afterwards, on the way back to the car from the little wooded patch we'd been in, he said "I suppose I should have asked this before. Are you clean." I had a little panic attach, got flushed, felt like I was going to pass out, and said "You're fine!" (Undetectable Pozzie, on an ARV that has an even higher concentration in the genital track than in the blood, not much of a pre-cum leaker, oral only - Zero risk to him - he Was fine. Yea, all of it is self-justification BS.)

If the other guy advertises that he is a Pozzie, I don't think I need to discuss it with him. BB with a Neg guy, yes I do think there needs to be informed consent. Especially if the Pozzie isn't on meds. It begins to get a bit grey, in the undetectable bottom, anon situations, using a blind folded cum-dump bottom, Dark room, undiscussed at a bathhouse, etc. Haven't most of our education campaigns said "Always assume the other guy is HIV Pozitive." Isn't that what the MuscMtl was doing? The PSA's should have said, "Always assume the other guy has the Opposite HIV status."

But can we excuse complete abdication of personal responsibility on the Neg guy's part? If it's THEIR ass that THEY wast to keep Negative, then THEY have EQUAL responsibility to start the conversation. When they don't ask the REAL question, and instead use a childish, hipster euphemism, why must we interpret the word as only one of a dozen possible meanings? Constantly blaming the Pozzie is BS. But of course the laws assume that the Neggie is an uninvolved bystander, and a completely innocent victim of the predatory Pozzie. The legal system treats the Pozzie as guilty until proven innocent.

Why can't a Poz guy be caught up in the moment, thinking with the wrong head, judgment clowned by hormones, and for that moment just be a NORMAL sexual being? Instead, he's expected to view himself as a walking petri dish, full of disease, with the weight of the world on his shoulders, having God like self-control, be psychic in reading the other guy's mind, and always be 100% responsible. That makes as much logical sense as expecting everyone to use a condom 100% of the time. I'm tired of being the Neg guy's brain, and doing his thinking for him.

Heres the thing that I dont think people on here realize when they talk about breeding, stealthing, and infecting others. The vast majority of people DO NOT want HIV, even if they are participating in risky behavior.

You don't think Pozzies realize that? We've had it blasted in our fucking face for 32 years. We get it ground in our noses at every doctors visit. Every news story paints us all as raving lunatics. Maybe the TALK here is rebellion for all the Neggies, who take every opportunity to call us Dirty, Diseased, Unhealthy, Unhygenic, and Disgusting.

For some reason the first thought that enters the mind for a large portion of Neggies is "You're mad as hell at the world for getting HIV, and you're trying to get even by infecting as many people as possible." I've always wondered about those guys. Is that what they'd do if they got it? They thought of it first. Remind me again, which one of us is supposed to be the sociopath?

To quote Stan Lee / Spiderman "With great power, comes great responsibility." And the power to Poz is definitely a great power. Well it's actually a pretty crappy power that I wish I didn't have. With thinking that, I guess it puts me on the same level as every conflicted superhero in the comic book universe. But as an undetectable Pozzie, do I even possess that power? I know what I am, and the stigma from it has sucked most of the joy and fun out of my sex life for 28 years.

After reading on here, the prevalence of Stealther / Gift Giver / Bug Chaser (and hearing what they want to do after they've caught it) , I'm beginning to wonder if the paranoid Neggies just might have a point. It scares the shit out of me. I sure hope it's mostly just fantasy. It is NOT representative of most Pozzies.

[wood]

As a Neg person it is very easy to say that. And yes that's what some of the laws are writtem. Others are so vague that there are Poz people in jail for spitting, mutual masturbation, or getting fucked with a condom. The law where I live says that there must be a "realistic possibility of infection." BB would constitute that of course.

While it may be easier, my view has really nothing to do with my negative status, its strictly based on how I feel about the law, and possible exposure to other people. Being blunt, it sucks, but being poz isnt easy which is why the mentality on here by some is quite puzzling to me. Becoming HIV+ doesnt free anyone, and realistically sex, and life in general only become more complicated.

With that said, I agree with everything you wrote, especially about equal responsibility.

When I say the onus is on the HIV+ person, its just a fact of the situation. Its like a Typhoid Mary situation. The onus was on here to let people know about her condition, but she didnt, and people became infected. The same idea can be found today in many HIV+ people looking to not hookup with people who have HCV because they dont want it, so they ask for full disclosure.

To me the number one rule is NEVER LIE. If the person asks regardless of your status, its important to tell all you know, neg, pos, dont know, on PrEP, doesnt matter. Just disclose it!!

[wood]

After reading on here, the prevalence of Stealther / Gift Giver / Bug Chaser (and hearing what they want to do after they've caught it) , I'm beginning to wonder if the paranoid Neggies just might have a point. It scares the shit out of me. I sure hope it's mostly just fantasy. It is NOT representative of most Pozzies.

I'm not paranoid myself because I protect myself, but this has crossed my mind more than a few times. We already know that its rare for an HIV+ on treatment to pass on infection, so where are these new infections coming from?

Honestly its becoming an issue for me with this forum. I find that I rarely get throught out rational responses other than from you, and about five other people. Most of the time even in the general discussion forum there are responses like "yeah man poz his twink ass" "give him that toxic load" "give him your gift" etc etc. Hell maybe I am just jaded from hearing it at this point, but you can only hear it so many times before you start to believe it at least in some respect. Do I think its everyone? far from it, but after hearing some of the stuff in here, and knowing a bit too much about human behavior, it wouldn't surprise me if 10% of HIV+ gay men could care less about spreading HIV, or disclosing it to their partners.

[hungry_hole]

Without going into all his details it wasnt an anonymous encounter.

If it was not an anonymous encounter then I would agree with you when you wrote:

HOWEVER, he shouldnt lie about his status even if its after the fact. I dont condone complete dont ask dont tell situations, but if thats what each person wants fine. But, one should never lie IMO.

But the incident described by muscmtl was in a sauna, totally anonymous, therefore in my opinion none of what you say above applies here. As Poz1956 says, it's much easier for an HIV- guy to be honest about his status. Poz1956 explains:

As a Neg person it is very easy to say that [discussing HIV status]...

Morally, I feel that advising a partner of my status is the correct thing to do... Many Neggies totally freak at the mere mention of a guy being Poz. There are only so many times you handle being told "You're trying to Murder me", being called a Psychopath, having immediate moral judgment passed based on nothing more than three letters and a mathematical symbol, or receiving some other "Ewww, Icccck" response. You really begin to question "Is honest the best policy?"

I'm still testing negative for HIV but I can understand that I would get tired of having to continuosly disclose my HIV+ status so I would most likely go to saunas and sex clubs where I can feel free and leave morality at the door. Because of this and what Poz1956 says, guys have to understand that HIV laws would be difficult to prove in anonymous situations because these are places of fantasy. HIV+ guys may say they are HIV-, HIV- guys may say they are poz, whatever. Guys have to keep personal responsibility in mind because everybody is into their own sex trip. I see HIV as undesireable but I wouldn't blame no one but myself if I'm the one taking the risks. There are only tow possibilities. You either take risks that you feel comfortable with and be ready to accept those risks, or you better don't take any risks. But don't blame others.

To me the number one rule is NEVER LIE. If the person asks regardless of your status, its important to tell all you know, neg, pos, dont know, on PrEP, doesnt matter. Just disclose it!!

But how can you enforce this when many guys don't even know they are poz?

Heres the thing that I dont think people on here realize when they talk about breeding, stealthing, and infecting others. The vast majority of people DO NOT want HIV, even if they are participating in risky behavior...Like I said before I think many, if not the majority of people on here get stuck in the fantasy portion of this site without actually thinking about what they are saying, and what it could mean to another person.

I also think that most HIV- guys enjoy bareback sex a lot but do not want to poz. I was surprised to read in the book "Unlimited Intimacy: Reflections on the Subculture of Barebacking" that the author, Tim Dean, focuses on the bug-chaser/giver when discussing barebacking. My perception is that for most barebackers the turn-on is the barebacking experience itself, both top and bottom, with an emphasis on the "breeding" and the exchange of cum and they see HIV as a big nuisance and a huge inconvenience.

I can understand "givers" and a guy feeling really turned on by the power of his cum. I can understand the fantasy and the need to live that fantasy. muscmtl said: "I`m about to step out and he grabs my wrist and says in panick you clean ? right ? Of course, no worry I said, fuckin pleased with myself." He obviously enjoyed the experience, but I don't see anything wrong with what muscmtl did because we don't even know if the bottom was already poz. By being ass in the air position and allowing muscmtl to breed him should mean that me is taking personal responsibility and not caring, or because he was already poz.

The only way I can understand bug-chasing is as follows. A guy feels the need to bareback and take risks. He knows that HIV is a likely possibility and anxiety creeps in. There are three possibilities (1) Stop barebacking which will stop the episodes of anxiety (2) Continue barebacking but also continue to feel the anxiery of pozing (3) Make a fetish out of HIV infection and enjoy it instead of feeling the anxiety.

[bearbandit]

"yeah man poz his twink ass" "give him that toxic load" "give him your gift" etc etc. Hell maybe I am just jaded from hearing it at this point, but you can only hear it so many times before you start to believe it at least in some respect.

Know what you mean - and I hold my hand up to having written a load of fiction about gifting/chasing. It started as an experiment to see if I could make it erotic - well I got off on it. But I've enjoyed a lot of films and TV about situations I wouldn't like to be in...

And in the real world I've got a HIV unknown biker waiting for a text from me to say that I've got my numbers back. It's only if the VL is low enough for my comfort that he gets it, when I'm convinced that my viral load is low enough not to infect. He's freely admitted that it's the gamble that turns him on, so I'm stacking the odds in my favour as much as I can and if necessary it's going to be "sorry mate... no can do". I don't want the responsibility of someone else's infection. It's why I go on so much about TasP and PrEP (if only we had PrEP here!).

And because I'm honest about HIV on my profiles, I'm practically a nun, excepting the few who are more interested in my cum than me, which makes me less interested in them. I think of having HIV+ on my profiles as a twit filter...