"You clean ???" after the fact

[fuckboy20]

I will eventually get around to responding to all of your thread, but this did strike me. I have never thought about "bareback" sex as a fetish. I have always just viewed it as sex. I know bearbandit has said the same thing before. I say this because I have always found there is a disconnect in the gay community about sex without condoms. Straight people dont say "OMG did you bareback her!?!" or "yeah breed me!!" Its just sex. Sex without a rubber? yeah so? I wanted the more intimate feeling. I guess I just fail to see how something that comes naturally to animals (sex) is fetishised for using something thats not natural. Additionally, as you alluded to before the same people that may vilify you in public about not using protection are the same ones who wont always use condoms themselves. Its a really wierd dynamic, that I honestly think has a lot to do with why HIV is transmitted.

You don't have to it's up to you. I'll elaborate on that. I used to be a hopeless romantic boy. Fell in love with a Master and his slave. Became part of the relationship and became his slave. When he first fucked me it was with condoms. I told him condoms only. Diddn't even swallow back then. A year into the relationship one night he fucked me bare. It was making love in my mind and heart. And one of the last times we had sex too. After that it was sexless or just sex with my slave brother, who although I loved, didn't have the dominance that Master had. So from all the nights and encounters of condom sex and guys trying to bareback me I only used condoms. So when a guy stealthed me bare and admitted he was fucking me bare I think it became somewhat of a fetish. It was something dark, secret, and unknown that always existed but never explored. Then after I got back from hawaii I tried to find neg guys to fuck me bare and just wanted it to be occasional. But I obsessed over it and needed bare cock in me, needed the loads. If you want to get philosophical I replaced love, emotions, and relationship with bare cock, loads, and as much bareback sex as I could. From then on it was no longer about love making or saving myself for someone it was just another raw cock. I don't think that way anymore. I've heard of guys talking about bb as being a fetish that's how I saw it. Although I've kinda gone wild with bb sex lately after ending my 8 month relationship recently. It hasn't been about loneliness, depression, or me missing something. It's been about sexual freedom and exploring my sexuality and what gets my dick hard as a top, bottom, and a man.

That's why I pointed out "going back to before bb sex was a fetish and love making". Unfortunately that man completely fucked my views on sex and what a relationship should and be like that. I feel bad that I let him do that to me but I was very young and impressionable. But if I ever have a relationship again I won't make the same mistakes I've made or others have. I've learned from a lot of them and many people.

I think more people view it as a fetish then you think. I just don't think they think they see it as a fetish or call it that. I do, because that what it used to be for me. But now, yeah it is just sex. That's what you get when you have a naive, young, and impressionable sense of thinking, influence, and life though.

Yes. Something that really bugs me about some leather communities too. You have influential people who are adored and put on display. Yet, behind the curtains they bareback all the time but never admit to it. Yet, the ones who are honest about barebacking or poz are outcasted. It sickens me to be honest. Especially in a leather sense. But even in a non leather setting it's still not right for guys to bareback other guys and view someone for being poz or bad for barebacking openly. But that's life. You are right.

The denial of admitting to barebacking or asking the real questions and getting tested. That's why it's so rampant. People know they can get tested and treated. But they don't. Answer. Denial of everything.

[Poz1956]

#2 I think all gay men like to beat around the bush when it comes to HIV, and again no one wants to offend anyone, or really ask, so they say, "Are you clean?"

You can't seriously think that guys are trying to be politically correct, and inoffensive by using the word Clean?

BullShit! They are trying to be as offensive, and demeaning as possible. What person out there using the phrase doesn't know the opposite of Clean is Dirty? And that how they mean it -- Dirty Disgusting Diseased Pozzies. I might be willing to concede that guys who are too lazy to type full words, or sentences find "R U Clean" the shortest way to ask status. But they definitely ARE NOT trying to be polite, and pussy foot around a difficult topic. I've played dumb on the clean question, and replied that I've just showered. The response I've gotten back is "I meant are you DISEASED?"

But other times I've talked with people who actually do think the correct meaning of clean when they use it in their profile. Apparently there are a lot of guys out there who show up for play with shitty assholes, stinky feet, cheesy foreskin, and several days worth of sweat in their armpits. I don't mind a little 'less than a day old' musky mansent, but nobody should keel over when a trick gets undressed. Bottoms show up without douching too.

So no, it is not always clear what somebody means when they use Clean.

DDF is no better. It says I belong seated next to that heroine addict shooting up in the alley. It equates me to the meth head who'll steal you wallet while you pants are down. To them, I'm just a walking bucket of Infection -- Not a person at all. Especially not one with feelings.

What's even more infuriating is the guys who support organized crime. They are welcomed and sought after play partners. A whole section of this website is devoted to them. That's what the PnP crowd does, right? They support, enable, and funnel money into organized crime. They want to get so high that they don't know who's dick is in which hole, let alone if it's wrapped. And most of them can't remember the last time they got tested, or how many dicks they've taken since then. Hell, many don't know how many loads they received last night. But "Ewww! Ickkkk! You're a Pozzie! You shouldn't have sex with anybody ever again!"

There is a concerted effort to use language that says "Not Me" and drowns us with the stench of Stigma! Though some are just monkey see, monkey do, echoing back the language they see used elsewhere. They haven't given the meaning of the words even one second's worth of thought.

You asked where are all the new infections coming from. Literally almost all the new cases are coming from guys who don't know they are Poz. I've seen estimates as high as 54% from the newly infected (had HIV less than six weeks) acute phase guys. Add the chronic infection stage men, and it totals to over 83% of new transmissions. In the US you've got that special case where it's not easy for everyone to get on meds as soon as they are diagnosed (insurance, finances, etc). The diagnosed, but not on ARVs account for about 10% of new transmissions. That leaves 7% for serodiscordant couples, broken condoms, IV drug abusing MSM, chasers, gifters and stealthers. So it's what we already knew -- It's guys who are not getting tested.

And the biggest driver is Versatile guys. When they bottom, they are most susceptible to catching HIV, and when they top, they are the most efficient transmitters of it. I was watching the Policy Implications of The Lancet MSM & HIV Series. Their modelling showed that if everyone was exclusively a top or bottom, it would reduce the new infections in the MSM pandemic by 98% in five years. If we left the vers guys alone, but used a rectal microbicide lube that reduced the anal transmission rate to an equivalent of the rate for vaginal sex, it would reduce the pandemic by 80% in five years. The behavioural stuff like multiple partners, and condoms only account for about 2% of the difference between heterosexual and MSM pandemics. (That discussion starts at about eight minutes in) If you thought of their modelling as programming a Sims game, where all the characters are Gay, you'd have a good picture of what they did.

[Bbikercub]

What person out there using the phrase doesn't know the opposite of Clean is Dirty? And that how they mean it -- Dirty Disgusting Diseased Pozzies. I might be willing to concede that guys who are too lazy to type full words' date=' or sentences find "R U Clean" the shortest way to ask status. But they definitely ARE NOT trying to be polite, and pussy foot around a difficult topic. I've played dumb on the clean question, and replied that I've just showered. The response I've gotten back is "I meant are you DISEASED?" But other times I've talked with people who actually do think the correct meaning of clean when they use it in their profile.[/quote']

This is probably going to get me slated here but I have to say it. So first off I need to say that I don't use the term 'clean' or DDF etc. I say it as it is, I ask "are you poz?" I'm not afraid of being honest about the whole issue.

However, I do have to laugh when some of you guys get all defensive about the word clean.

You say "What person out there using the phrase doesn't know the opposite of Clean is Dirty?"

So on one hand you get offended by this language and talk of clean/dirty, but on the other all these bug chasers and guys who want to infect are going on about 'take my dirty load' or 'here comes my toxic seed' and 'here is the demon seed'. The word toxic is as negative as saying dirty and the whole ***** demonic thing, well I don't really need to point out how ludicrous that is!

Just saying but seems like there are some double standards here. It's like gay guys getting offended when they are called fag or queer but say 'oh he's such a fag' about another queen and that's ok because a gay guy said it! I call bullshit!

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

Bbikercub: different people are getting offended than use "toxic" etc. The whole chaser/gifter mindset and language is twisted. That mindset glorifies a virus as if it was gold. Poz1956 perspective on clean applies equally to "demon seed", "toxic load", etc.. Save that before sex no one asks "are you toxic"? The context of one to the other too different to apply.

The language double standard exists in more than gay community. The minority groups use the offensive words within their community to disempower the words. That's why you'll hear the N word in rap.

[fuckboy20]

Guys use DDF all the time on places like manunt and craigslist. I always see. "Neg/Clean/DDF/"

DDF really means Drug and Disease Free. Sometimes they'll say clean or clean only. I used DDF when I was younger just because I wasn't into druggies and it was easier to say "DDF" then "Drug Free and Negative Only". I'm not sure if spelling it out is worse or if DDF is worse. I've seen profiles too say "Don't use DDF, it's offensive" and things like that too.

Honestly, it doesn't offend me. Some guys want someone who is drug free and disease free. Technically I have a disease. Does this make me a crack whore or a junkie? No it doesn't. Does this mean I'm labelled alongside them. To some, I am. All it does is weed out the bastards who I don't want to meet or who are going to fuck me over anyways. Although, I love it when I see, "Bare only for Neg, DDF". That just makes me laugh. Overall, the DDF term isn't helping anything. But I'm pretty sure it's here to stay. Just like the DL.

[Poz1956]

The other thing is that the onus is ALWAYS on the person with HIV to let the other person know their status

Let me present you with a situation. Does ALWAYS apply here too?

I went to the bathhouse and got a double room the Saturday night before my birthday. I pre-opened a couple of condoms (cuz I can never rip the packages once I have lube on my hands) and put them beside the lube. I got fucked my four guys. No one asked my status, and I did't tell anyone I was Poz. However, with each guy I said "I'll only do it safely," and I personally put the rubber on each of their dicks.

By my reckoning I put them at zero risk. (Bottomed, Undetectable, ARV that achieves higher concentrations in the genital tract than in the blood, Condoms and plenty of lube -- That's Belt & Suspenders, condoms time three, level of safety) Do you think I should have disclosed my status? In some jurisdictions, the legal stand-ins for homophobia say I should be in jail.

A good friend of mine has been seeing a guy for 4 months, and they havent had sex. For him its under the guise of "waiting" but in reality hes HIV+ and scared shitless to get rejected by the guy cause he really likes him.

And now your friend is caught in a trap. If he'd told the guy as soon as they'd met (which surveys show about 56% of guys want) there was a very good chance he would have been rejected. (49% of guys agreed with the statement "I would not have sex with a man who is HIV Positive even if I am very attracted to him.") He hoped that once the guy got to know him as a person, he would realize your firend wasn't a psychopathic monster hell bent on infecting as many people as possible. Now, because he's waited too long, the guy will feel betrayed, because he wasn't informed earlier. He will question if he can ever trust your friend, because of concealing his status for this long. The chances of rejection are even higher than the 50/50 at the beginning. The exception would be if the guy truly loves him, and can see past his status. But even then, he will always wonder "what else isn't he telling me?"

In a world where we can't even talk about HIV -- Where people hide behind euphemisms like Clean, D&D Free, Healthy, Sanitary, etc. -- Where a Pozzie is routinely treated like trash -- We are terrified to disclose our status. The Stigma is that great, and growing!

Or maybe your "ALWAYS" should have applied to your friend the moment he met the guy. Let's order a round of biohazard tattoos on the forehead of all Pozzies the moment they're diagnosed. Better put one by the ass and dick too, so no Neggie gets deceived. (Yes, I know there are guys like Bear who have gone that route as rebellion, ownership, or to shoot the middle finger at the Neggie bigot horde)

I think Mark S. King's "

" shows the Poz/Neg divide quite well. (Warning: It contains the C word, and isn't exactly BB friendly)

They are from a generation that died off, and now they are at an age where they can fully see the "negative" side of things as older men who are still alive and now healthy.

We saw the down sides of this all the way along. Now, allong with ageism, pozzaphobia, and the psychological bludgeoning we receive anytime we go online, we have long term effects of HIV and/or the drugs to struggle against. While "healthy" in comparison to how we'd be had the ARVs not arrived, our bodies are feeling much older than our birthdate would suggest.

I wish the chasers understood their "freedom" includes chronic pain, early aging, and who knows what other surprises are in store.

There is an older guy I am hooking up with right now who is undetectable. Im 30, hes 46, and looks probably 35. What gets me every time about him that despite being healthy is that its obvious HIV weighs on him. Its a profound image of a person who at first glance has a great life, but has been relegated to certain things he really didn't want, because of HIV. He doesn't have a husband despite wanting one because of dating issues; he kept the job he has longer that he's wanted to keep decent health insurance; He uses hookup apps where being HIV+ is more accepted despite wanting more than that.

I feel like I'm looking in a mirror. Are you spying on me? Which hook-up app is Poz friendly?

Lastly as I thought about it more, the other reason non-disclosure bothers me so much is that I want to see a generation of men that DON'T have to worry about HIV, and until we stop infecting each other its not gonna happen.

I realize you know better, but implied in that statement is that classic allegation that the guys who know they are Poz are the ones spreading HIV. Blame the Pozzie is STIGMA.

Until we make testing NORMAL, and EVERYONE gets tested REGULARLY, and get EVERYONE who is Poz on treatment without it financially hurting them, we haven't a hope in hell of getting this under control. But if we allow the constant blaming of the Poz guys to go unchallenged, continue criminalizing sex while Poz, and don't break the fingers of every shithead who uses stigmatizing language, people won't get tested. The 25+% of Pozzies who DO NOT know they have HIV will continue to grow the epidemic (40% of Poz but don't know it in guys under 25). Over 83% of new transmissions are from guys who think they are "Clean."

There are multiple factors driving the epidemic. Go watch the Policy Implications of The Lancet MSM & HIV Series to learn how the biological and network level effects, are far greater than individual behaviours. (I suggest you start 5 minutes in) It really gave me some insights as to why we are not seeing infection rates go down. For example, if we stopped using water based lube (because it actually damages the one cell thick rectal lining, probably increasing the transmission of HIV), and changed to silicon based lube it would help. Or ideally, a silicon rectal microbicide based lube, would make a HUGE difference (like 80% reduction in new infections). Add in PrEP and TasP and the new infections will plummet. But Stigma is one of the biggest factors, because it inhibits both the testing and treating elements of TasP.

[Poz1956]

Yet, I love how when I became poz the doctor recommended I go out and have a lot of sex and use a condom and be young, healthy, and cute, and have sex with as many guys as I want as long as I use a condom. Although a bit younger, one once told me the safest sex is "oral sex". And have lots of oral.

I am so happy to hear a doctor said that. It's great advice. Listen to it!

That is a MORE IMPORTANT discussion, than their Bla Bla Bla - Play Safely. Trust me when I say it is vital to your mental health.

The biggest thing driving my mid-life crisis at the moment, is that it took until May 2013 for me to realize, that I REALLY DID have as much right to a hot sex life as anybody else. The shaming, guilt, and demand that I ALWAYS reveal my most personal private piece of medical information to any casual hook-up, kept me from having more than two or three encounters a year. (Most of them were J/O or B/J) There were even several year or more periods (one lasted three), where I didn't even get a single naked cuddle.

Now that I've finally had the revelation that I AM ALLOWED to be as a erotic human, I am deprived of the sex life I want, because of ageism, Stigma, and HIV's early aging making the 'bits' work all that well. If I'm playing safe, and have to adopt "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" to get some fun, So Be It! If I'm NOT putting the other guy at any risk, I DO NOT HAVE TO TELL HIM ANYTHING!

But he's right about the blowjob aspect. A guy blows you or blow them you don't even think about status. But if they happen to ask it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. You don't want to freak them out and have them react in a bad way. But you feel guilty that you didn't say anything but more of the fact that you should have to.

I would NEVER disclose my status to somebody I'm just sucking. In either position, transmission by oral sex is EXTREMELY rare. The chance of catching some other STI from a BJ is far higher than HIV. Why can't we dispense with the bull shit fear about HIV and oral sex?

I will no longer let Guilt, Shame, or Stigma prevent me from getting the human contact I need.

[fuckboy20]

I am so happy to hear a doctor said that. It's great advice. Listen to it!

That is a MORE IMPORTANT discussion, than their Bla Bla Bla - Play Safely. Trust me when I say it is vital to your mental health.

The biggest thing driving my mid-life crisis at the moment, is that it took until May 2013 for me to realize, that I REALLY DID have as much right to a hot sex life as anybody else. The shaming, guilt, and demand that I ALWAYS reveal my most personal private piece of medical information to any casual hook-up, kept me from having more than two or three encounters a year. (Most of them were J/O or B/J) There were even several year or more periods (one lasted three), where I didn't even get a single naked cuddle.

Now that I've finally had the revelation that I AM ALLOWED to be as a erotic human, I am deprived of the sex life I want, because of ageism, Stigma, and HIV's early aging making the 'bits' work all that well. If I'm playing safe, and have to adopt "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" to get some fun, So Be It! If I'm NOT putting the other guy at any risk, I DO NOT HAVE TO TELL HIM ANYTHING!

I didn't agree with it. I told them I wouldn't play with anyone right now and condoms would break. I asked, hows that safe sex if I'm fucking someone or they are fucking me and the condom breaks and they get infected. They just said something like just make sure I use new condoms and good ones. And of course I didn't. I guess, the fact that they are encouraging me to go play was a good thing. So they were trying to make me feel a little better I suppose. At the time, I felt like shit though so I wasn't in the mood to hear any of it.

I can understand why you have a dilemma with telling people. I can't imagine what it's like to go from week, month, to year and get rejected by so many guys for being poz. Even something as simple as a blow job is a missed opportunity. I had a guy come over once who just had me jack him off. Just touching me was something he was afraid to do he wanted no bodily fluid contact. Some of us need to remember too that not everyone lives in a big city. In big cities you can pass on one guy to the next one in line. Can't do that in small towns. Also, being older people judge you and see in a different way. Good and bad.

I really don't blame you for not wanting to tell a guy anything. Both you and I are of different generation. And I'm a city person so even though I'm poz and will get rejected there are lots of poz guys around and even some who will want to maybe play who are neg. But I understand you don't have that.

I would NEVER disclose my status to somebody I'm just sucking. In either position, transmission by oral sex is EXTREMELY rare. The chance of catching some other STI from a BJ is far higher than HIV. Why can't we dispense with the bull shit fear about HIV and oral sex?

I will no longer let Guilt, Shame, or Stigma prevent me from getting the human contact I need.

The only way to really catch it from oral is if dental surgery is done. People will always consider it a fear because as "RARE" as it may be it's still a "possibility". As long as there is a "possibility" there will be fear. I'm going to try and do more piggy, raw, bb club type atmospheres where most guys are already poz or bb. I guess I'll have to make my own decision about telling someone if they blow me or I blow them. But by doing so, I might have to use my hand more often. I'm glad you won't let anything stop you from getting human contact and sex. Everyone deserves human contact. I won't let stigma, fear, or people get to me either.

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

I will no longer let Guilt, Shame, or Stigma prevent me from getting the human contact I need.

Here Here Poz1956!!! I'm glad to hear you take that stance. Far too many are not mentally processing the fact that it is not "the pozzies" who are doing all the infecting. Those are coming from the DDF and "Clean" ones... You've been saing it in so many ways. The conversation has to shift from the overly simple +/- mindset to one of regular testing and prevention strategies for STI's (including HIV, but while we're remaining overly focused on one particular STI, dozens of others are rampant with nearly no conversation about them). For some, condoms are an acceptable option. For others, informed consent and regular testing, TasP, PrEP.

I know it can be a buzz kill, but for some of the chaser stories, I read about guys having sex with poz undectable guys, going nucking futs about how they'll poz up. I often post counter statements since it isn't the poz undetectable guy that is going to do it for the silly chaser. But the spin the yarn and get all sexed up about taking that poz seed thinking mr poz undetectable is going to do it for them. On one hand, I'm glad to see my poz brothers getting laid. But it continues a myth and misinformation that is ultimately destructive.

I have another friend here, tested + this year and is still grappling with the emotional roller coaster. He had in just the few months prior heard about PrEP; and was intending to start that when he tested. Ostensibly the test was going to come up negative, and he would have started PrEP. The shame here is that we collectively have not shared the information about PrEP; and we're not discussing TasP nearly enough. {I was an odd one; or perhaps advanced thinker; and serosorted on poz guys on meds (undetectable) as my play partners before PrEP; so you Poz1956 are exactly the type of guy I was looking to play with pre-PrEP; though I would happly play together now as well}.

JDW

[Poz1956]

The ridiculous thing here is the absolute ignorance about the realities of HIV. One of the purposes of our HIV agencies is to advocate on behalf of those with HIV, and educate about how HIV is transmitted. There's none of that going on in the Gay community. They just allow the fear and stigma to fester. The best effort they can muster is distribute condoms.

They need to stop yelling "Condoms, Condoms, Condoms" and start screaming "Testing, Testing, Testing." Maybe while people are waiting for test results, we can force them to learn something about WHO is spreading HIV, and what activities are the lowest risk. Something like videos on waiting room TV's.

I've taken to putting educational material on hook-up websites, in the guise of a "get laid" profile just to teach people about the Window Period, Define Undetectable, and Disscuss the viral loads of the "D & D Free" who aren't quite as D Free as they thought. Guys who have commented on it say, this is brand new information that they didn't know before. WTF?

You should have thrown Mr. "I won't touch it" out the door, telling him he'd better not hold any dicks ever again, because he's been too STUPID to learn the first thing about HIV or any other STI. Scared of mutual masturbation - Jesus fucking Christ. What are we supposed to do, force a dimwit like that to read a basic "How HIV is transmitted" webpage while we stand over his shoulder. Why has it now become the responsibility of Pozzies to educate the terminally moronic, while our organizations charged with education, do nothing more than hand out condoms.

Most guys think it is more dangerous to suck on a undetectable HIV+ cock, than to lick an asshole. Rimming is virtually zero risk for HIV transmission, but high risk for a host of other infections. But we allow "Ewwww I'm scared of sucking on a Pozzie cock, but any stranger can shove their ass in my face" to go unchallenged. Sucking cock is Extremely low risk for HIV, but fairly high risk for Gonorrhea, Chlamydia, and Syphilis. Hep B is 50 to 100 times more transmissible than HIV, and definitely considered possible to catch via oral sex, but nobody talks about Hep B.

Perhaps I've left the wrong impression about where I live. When I moved here, the city was 800,000. Now it's 1.25 million. Small by comparison to the multi-million cities, but not tiny. There is no Gay village, and only three gay bars. The only one with a reasonable number of people, is the twink dance bar. The bathhouse is about the barest minimum you'll find anywhere. I don't have a smart phone, so all the location aware apps that people use to hook up with are not available to me. I'm kind of stuck with online hookups. I go to the twink bar to dance and people watch, but I never expect to get anything there. Surprisingly it does occasionally happen.

Let me put it this way, the water level in the pond gets more shallow as you get older. Over 49 its volume drops by half. Over 55, it drops by half again. Of those that might be interested in someone my age, the majority are "Clean U B 2" twits. I'm probably in the bets shape of my life, and am told I have the ass of a guy half my age. Since HIV's early aging has left me stuck bottoming, I really can't compete with the wide variety of much younger and more experienced butt boys out there.

I used to be terrified of putting myself out there, fearing THE question. I'm still not very self-confident, but at least I'm trying.

[fuckboy20]

The ridiculous thing here is the absolute ignorance about the realities of HIV. One of the purposes of our HIV agencies is to advocate on behalf of those with HIV, and educate about how HIV is transmitted. There's none of that going on in the Gay community. They just allow the fear and stigma to fester. The best effort they can muster is distribute condoms.

They need to stop yelling "Condoms, Condoms, Condoms" and start screaming "Testing, Testing, Testing." Maybe while people are waiting for test results, we can force them to learn something about WHO is spreading HIV, and what activities are the lowest risk. Something like videos on waiting room TV's.

I've taken to putting educational material on hook-up websites, in the guise of a "get laid" profile just to teach people about the Window Period, Define Undetectable, and Disscuss the viral loads of the "D & D Free" who aren't quite as D Free as they thought. Guys who have commented on it say, this is brand new information that they didn't know before. WTF?

You should have thrown Mr. "I won't touch it" out the door, telling him he'd better not hold any dicks ever again, because he's been too STUPID to learn the first thing about HIV or any other STI. Scared of mutual masturbation - Jesus fucking Christ. What are we supposed to do, force a dimwit like that to read a basic "How HIV is transmitted" webpage while we stand over his shoulder. Why has it now become the responsibility of Pozzies to educate the terminally moronic, while our organizations charged with education, do nothing more than hand out condoms.

Most guys think it is more dangerous to suck on a undetectable HIV+ cock, than to lick an asshole. Rimming is virtually zero risk for HIV transmission, but high risk for a host of other infections. But we allow "Ewwww I'm scared of sucking on a Pozzie cock, but any stranger can shove their ass in my face" to go unchallenged. Sucking cock is Extremely low risk for HIV, but fairly high risk for Gonorrhea, Chlamydia, and Syphilis. Hep B is 50 to 100 times more transmissible than HIV, and definitely considered possible to catch via oral sex, but nobody talks about Hep B.

Perhaps I've left the wrong impression about where I live. When I moved here, the city was 800,000. Now it's 1.25 million. Small by comparison to the multi-million cities, but not tiny. There is no Gay village, and only three gay bars. The only one with a reasonable number of people, is the twink dance bar. The bathhouse is about the barest minimum you'll find anywhere. I don't have a smart phone, so all the location aware apps that people use to hook up with are not available to me. I'm kind of stuck with online hookups. I go to the twink bar to dance and people watch, but I never expect to get anything there. Surprisingly it does occasionally happen.

Let me put it this way, the water level in the pond gets more shallow as you get older. Over 49 its volume drops by half. Over 55, it drops by half again. Of those that might be interested in someone my age, the majority are "Clean U B 2" twits. I'm probably in the bets shape of my life, and am told I have the ass of a guy half my age. Since HIV's early aging has left me stuck bottoming, I really can't compete with the wide variety of much younger and more experienced butt boys out there.

I used to be terrified of putting myself out there, fearing THE question. I'm still not very self-confident, but at least I'm trying.

I wonder what makes yours so different then. At the very least, since I was a tad bit worried they had a poz doctor come in before they took my blood. He explained he was poz and has been for a number of years and still happy and healthy. I'm sure there are several men who need someone to tell them something like that when they first find out. I completely agree. If the condom agenda wasn't shoved down my throat so much, I probably would have used condoms more. You're right, videos showing the guys who are more likely to infect others. Not the pozzies, but the ones that don't know their status, that don't get tested fuck around. Maybe some kind of video too showing what poz guys can do too so people think they aren't a walking deathbed.

That's great that you do that. I'm sure it helps a lot. I've been people post craigslist ads too or manhunt ones that explain or try to that they are still human and that they still have the right to touch and have human contact. It's even more impressive that you give up a hook up ad for the sake of teaching and enlightenment. Although, you've said it's gotten you laid a few times. I'm not that noble. But I appreciate that you and others do it.

Well, the guy was bi, and a client. Yeah, the fact that I allowed someone to treat me like that, whether they are a client or a hook up, isn't right. But hindsight. I tried to educate the bi veteran and construction worker who fucked me a few nights ago. But no matter once I told him after he said, "Oh..I thought you were kidding about being poz" all that he could see was fear and me as just a disease. Some people can't be reached. But I tried at least. But that was my fault going after a straight type guy. I normally avoid bi guys or straight minded guys like the plague. But something about him.

That's exactly why I don't really rim. Regardless of who it is. Only if I know the guy well or have seen him a few times. Well I've done it at a bath house before but me and the guy showered together. Hot, car mechanic. In some ways I don't think guys are really afraid of sucking a poz cock whether it's undetectable or unknown. It's more of what it leads to. Will the guy get aggressive? Will they want to take the cock in their ass? Some guys love anal. I'm one of them. It's more like accepting a poz cock in any shape or form is an entrance to FULL SEX with a poz guy. Or at least, maybe that's what they think.

Oh, so you do live in a city? There's a least 3 gay bars then? I've known people who have literally had nothing in their small town. I've also seen how small towns can affect people. Sorry that you only have a twink dance bar though. You have a bath house too? You shouldn't be so surprised or against that twink bar then. I used to go to a twink dance bar. I saw a really sexy older guy there occasionally and I saw them take how a twink or a guy. As an older man something you should never underestimate is someone young? Wasn't it back in the 80's or that time period when mentoring was actually common? Plus a lot of guys be it younger or older, are attracted to older. Again, it's the only club to meet up at besides the baths so it's going to bring out more of a crowd than just twinks. Even though I don't like Atlanta which is a tad bit selfish seeing it's a big city. I'm starting to appreciate the bars, clubs, and people that are here. I'd like to live elsewhere but even I believe I can find something for me in the city, even if it's just temporary.

As far as a smartphone goes. To be quite honest there are extremely decent smartphones you can get around $100-$200 off contract and so so ones under $100. The era of smartphones being just for the upper class or with a high paying job isn't the case anymore. But I won't get into that here.

I disagree partly with that. No one wanted to touch me when I was 18 because I was jailbait. Even when I was in my 20's or so still I've always seen the older men get more action. A friend of mine agreess in his 20's he was mostly passed on but when he got into his 30's all of a sudden guys looked at him. Being poz is another and I'm sure the years you spent being honest and rejected probably hurt. Things are changing now, although slowly. Give yourself more credit and try to get out there a little more. If you're town isn't working for you travel or take a day trip or weekend trip elsewhere to find what you need or want. Don't settle.

You'd be surprised at how hot older bottoms are and how sought after they are. Just don't stop trying and don't give up. Keep putting yourself out there. I've been doing that too for a while now and it pays off.

[wood]

You can't seriously think that guys are trying to be politically correct, and inoffensive by using the word Clean?

BullShit! They are trying to be as offensive, and demeaning as possible. What person out there using the phrase doesn't know the opposite of Clean is Dirty? And that how they mean it -- Dirty Disgusting Diseased Pozzies. I might be willing to concede that guys who are too lazy to type full words, or sentences find "R U Clean" the shortest way to ask status. But they definitely ARE NOT trying to be polite, and pussy foot around a difficult topic. I've played dumb on the clean question, and replied that I've just showered. The response I've gotten back is "I meant are you DISEASED?"

So no, it is not always clear what somebody means when they use Clean.

DDF is no better. It says I belong seated next to that heroine addict shooting up in the alley. It equates me to the meth head who'll steal you wallet while you pants are down. To them, I'm just a walking bucket of Infection -- Not a person at all. Especially not one with feelings.

Sorry still gotta at least partially disagree. If people cared they would just ask what is your HIV status, but there is a two fold problem with that. One the person may like the guy, so he doesnt want to offend him by actually asking direct questions. Two, People dont even want to say the words err intials HIV or AIDS!!!! Its easier and more distant from them if they just say "are you clean" Do I agree, hell no, but I dont think people are gonna stop anytime soon.

There is a concerted effort to use language that says "Not Me" and drowns us with the stench of Stigma! Though some are just monkey see, monkey do, echoing back the language they see used elsewhere. They haven't given the meaning of the words even one second's worth of thought.

You asked where are all the new infections coming from. Literally almost all the new cases are coming from guys who don't know they are Poz. I've seen estimates as high as 54% from the newly infected (had HIV less than six weeks) acute phase guys. Add the chronic infection stage men, and it totals to over 83% of new transmissions. In the US you've got that special case where it's not easy for everyone to get on meds as soon as they are diagnosed (insurance, finances, etc). The diagnosed, but not on ARVs account for about 10% of new transmissions. That leaves 7% for serodiscordant couples, broken condoms, IV drug abusing MSM, chasers, gifters and stealthers. So it's what we already knew -- It's guys who are not getting tested.

And the biggest driver is Versatile guys. When they bottom, they are most susceptible to catching HIV, and when they top, they are the most efficient transmitters of it. I was watching the Policy Implications of The Lancet MSM & HIV Series. Their modelling showed that if everyone was exclusively a top or bottom, it would reduce the new infections in the MSM pandemic by 98% in five years.

And as usual I agree on the other stuff you wrote here. One of the reasons I have no problem with undetectable guys is because I know the chance of infection to me is low, even if I wasnt on PrEP. On PrEP its practically non-existent.

On the issue of being versatile I begrudgingly agree. I LOVE being vertisle and do both at about a 50/50 ratio, but I also know the stuff you said Prior. Besides my own personal health one of the main reasons I started PrEP is because I Dont want to pass anything on to anyone. With that said I am not going to stop being versitle, but I will stay on PrEP, and get full panels every 3 months like i always do.

[wood]

And now your friend is caught in a trap. If he'd told the guy as soon as they'd met (which surveys show about 56% of guys want) there was a very good chance he would have been rejected. (49% of guys agreed with the statement "I would not have sex with a man who is HIV Positive even if I am very attracted to him.") He hoped that once the guy got to know him as a person, he would realize your firend wasn't a psychopathic monster hell bent on infecting as many people as possible. Now, because he's waited too long, the guy will feel betrayed, because he wasn't informed earlier. He will question if he can ever trust your friend, because of concealing his status for this long. The chances of rejection are even higher than the 50/50 at the beginning. The exception would be if the guy truly loves him, and can see past his status. But even then, he will always wonder "what else isn't he telling me?"

In a world where we can't even talk about HIV -- Where people hide behind euphemisms like Clean, D&D Free, Healthy, Sanitary, etc. -- Where a Pozzie is routinely treated like trash -- We are terrified to disclose our status. The Stigma is that great, and growing!

Well I told him this and he didnt listen, so I dont know what to tell him at this point.

I realize you know better, but implied in that statement is that classic allegation that the guys who know they are Poz are the ones spreading HIV. Blame the Pozzie is STIGMA.

Until we make testing NORMAL, and EVERYONE gets tested REGULARLY, and get EVERYONE who is Poz on treatment without it financially hurting them, we haven't a hope in hell of getting this under control. But if we allow the constant blaming of the Poz guys to go unchallenged, continue criminalizing sex while Poz, and don't break the fingers of every shithead who uses stigmatizing language, people won't get tested. The 25+% of Pozzies who DO NOT know they have HIV will continue to grow the epidemic (40% of Poz but don't know it in guys under 25). Over 83% of new transmissions are from guys who think they are "Clean."

Well I should have worded my statement better, but I think this was another one where I was past the edit time. (note: rawtop increase the edit time limit)

I am FULLY aware that it is not HIV+ people who know their status that are infecting most people. The main reason I am all for disclosure is simply because I believe in sexual honesty.

With that said I 110% agree with your last statement. My method of testing would be very unpopular but really I would mandate testing at least once per year and tie it to your taxes. There are simply too many people not getting tested, and as you rightly point out that is driving new infections. All school age children, especially middle and high school I would say should get tested twice per year, and I think that student loan apps and colleges should also require tests. Not even joking its borderline socialist, but I bet that combined with immediate treatment would have a drastic drop in new infections.

[fuckboy20]

I have a little more understanding from poz1659 now.

I went to the club in Ft. Lauderdale last weekend. Lots of cute, hot guys there and some wanted to play with me. Before we go to sucking or fucking, when we got into my room I told them I was poz. Almost every single one of them dropped me like a hot potato. Some guy wanted to suck in me in the steam area. I took him to my room and told him I was poz. He said he's happy I told him. I told him that I always tell guys before we do anything sex related. I said not every guy does though, some guys get blown and blow other guys and don't say if they are poz or not.

The guy told me that was immorally wrong and illegal for guys to do that. I told him that he should try to see it from their point of view though. Getting rejected by 99% of guys for being super honest is very disheartening. He told me he didn't want to have sex with me because I'm infected but i could lay next to him. He told me he had friends that are poz so he's cool with it and accepts poz guys. He said I was a nice guy too. I tested him and asked him if after or maybe sometime that day or the next day if he'd want to grab a drink and hang out. He told him he can't and that he has stuff to do but enjoyed meeting me. Yet he was talking like we were buddy buddy before. And the rest of the guys just flat out said they couldn't do anything with someone who's poz.

And oddly enough I found a poz guy. It was sad how we were both feeling each other, exploring bodies, but not kissing or no sexual contact. I realized that he was the same as me, and afraid to go further. I told him I'm poz and he told me he is too. But because I'm not undectable he fucked me with a condom. Wasn't bad as I thought it would be, but probably horrible feeling for him. I know lots of guys who don't feel anything with a condom on.

So that was my experience with the club. Honesty lead to not even getting my dick sucked. Although I did suck one guy in the dark room, but he kinda pushed me onto his dick before i could say anything. Didn't say anything after.

Fortunately, I met someone who gave me a bit of advice. Him being poz himself. He told me he never says he's poz if it's just oral. Even if it's anal if he's getting fucked, he won't say status. If he's fucking he will. And if a guy asks, "Are you clean" he doesn't even bother with a vague statement like that. He doesn't believe it's poz guys jobs to protect naive neggies.

But it could be the safe sex posters and testing schedule around scares guys into using condoms.

And then i went to the right place. Clubhouse II. Sucked lots of dick, someone tried to fist me (4 fingers...strong poppers...wasn't sure why I let him...challenge?) and most guys I went into a room with fucked me raw. No questions asked. A few bottoms wanted me to fuck them so I fucked them. I loved that. Just sucking and fucking no questions asked. A little before I left a top found me in the maze secluded area. He slapped my ass and told me he's going to fuck me. I bent over the chair and he told me he'll fuck me raw with his poz cock and breed me. He shoved it in, but I took it and loved it. He asked me if I was neg and I told him I was poz. That turned him on. While fucking me, he told me I don't need to worry abou status at clubhouse II. he told me most guys that go there are poz or don't care and almost everyone fucks raw. That was good to know.

I went to slammers after with a friend and I fucked him raw in the sling. Some other guys watched and someone fucked me while I was breeding my bud. After he left I enticed several tops by turning around and showing my ass. Again, no mention of status. They saw an ass and shoved their raw cock in me and fucked me. Some bred me. I saw some hot bottoms around too and I fucked some and bred some. Some guys I flip flopped with. But that's the sexual freedom that more guys need. Especially poz guys.

And I'm sure someone will say it's wrong. But it's worse feeling like crap after everyone rejects you for being honest. If you're gonna suck someone it's just oral. If they are going to suck you, it's oral and they aren't as at risk. And as for fucking, most guys are less at risk if they are fucking instead of getting fucked. The bottoms I fucked too had loads up their ass. Several. I know they weren't all neg.

Although I'll have to admit. Even in a place like slammers I did encounter a top who used condoms on many guys. Or tried too. Also got rejected by quite a few. Although he bought me a few drinks, got me drunk, and fucked me raw on the sling.

I think the trick with going to the bath houses and having oral sex or bareback sex and deciding to mention status or not is partially determining the location. If it's more of a safe sex place, better to be honest and let them know even if rejection. Or just settle for oral. But if it's a real piggy sleezy place where 99% of the guys bareback, breed, and get bred, then IMO no questions are needed.

However, better suited for the no questions asked are events like poz nights, groups, or cumunions. Technically there is always a risk. But if someone wants to take it bare and doesn't ask, it's partially their own naiveness.

[totalasspig]

@fuckboy20 - It's no surprise that you were turned down at Club LaLaDale. While I will admit it's like a beautiful gay resort with a bunch of hot guys, 98 percent of them when they hear POZ, that's it for them.

Slammers and Clubhouse2 are so much better for bareback sex - of all the times I was there, I was NEVER asked for status, guys took their raw cocks and shoved them up my ass and I did the same in return when I saw a willing bottom - in fact guys didn't even ask if they could cum, they all unloaded in my ass and I unloaded in any ass that I fucked as well.

POZ and Proud here - Condoms do break - and as I always say "If you play raw, you pay later" - Your being "HIV Negative" or "Clean" is determined at the NanoSecond of the blood draw. I know a guy who was tested one week at a clinic and three days later at this doctors - clinic was negative, doc was poz. He hadn't had anal sex in six months and the last time he did it was bareback. Goes to show, people that say they are neg may not be at all - just saying.