Have you started a poz fetish or chem sex thread in the wrong location?

[drscorpio]

Thanks for your unwillingness to help with the problem while still being willing to come in here and bitch about it. I don't know what else to tell you. 

[rawTOP]

16 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

DrS (and RawTop): If the guidelines were clearer, I'd be a lot happier about reporting posts. But having to guess, as an ordinary user, what's "too much" chem sex and what's not, is a minefield I don't want to enter - especially when it wouldn't be hard to draw a hard and fast line as RawTop has done on other topics.

I'll be clear then… Any overt reference to the narrator of the story doing illegal chems or any of the other main characters doing chems is a problem and should be reported.

DrScorpio's example of "That night at the baths, a few guys were clearly tweaking, but I didn't pay any attention to them" is a good example of what IS allowed. The point of that statement was that the narrator had zero interest in doing chems or playing with guys on chems – and he still had a great time that night.

Along those same lines – references that imply (or clearly state) that chems don't make sex better are also perfectly OK. For example "There three of us taking loads in the backroom – there was a muscular job who was in a K hole and just laying there, and there was this skinny twink who had done some T and was all fidgety. The tops would fuck them briefly when another top was fucking me, but I was getting most of the loads because I could focus on the top's body language and give them what they wanted – whether it was 'connected sex' or just a nice tight hole."

Also allowed are passing, implied references. For example… "After hanging out with John my head was spinning and I wasn't thinking all that clearly but was horny as fuck". If the phrase can be read in a way that could be innocent and it's not the focus of the story, then it's fine. But if you wrote "After smoking up with John I was spinning and horny as fuck" – that's a problem unless you had previously mentioned that you were smoking pot (which I consider legal). In other words, it's all about word choice and phrasing.

Bottom line is this… Could the mention be problematic for a recovering drug addict? If the recovering drug addict could look at what was written and not be certain it was a reference to illegal drugs, then you're fine. If the reference implies that one can have a great time not doing drugs, then you're also fine because that's actually the type of thing recovering drug addicts need to see – it supports their choice not to do drugs.

[BootmanLA]

Thanks, RawTop, for a much more helpful clarification. (As a general rule: clear statements of what is NOT acceptable are more useful because they establish a point that's "beyond the limits"; pointing out just things that are OK only tells you the line is somewhere farther out, but with not much guidance as to "how far" out it is.)

One related question: For lack of a better term, are "orals" lumped in with drugs that are normally smoked or injected as "chem sex" things, assuming they otherwise fall into the usage depiction guidelines above? For instance, I've seen several stories recently that mention the protagonist taking a hit of DrugXYZ, almost always to lower his inhibitions. Like you, I consider pot legal (or at least, it is in enough states that it's not in the same category as meth/coke/crack), but that leaves a lot of addictive oral medications in the gap between.

And DrScorpio - with respect, I didn't say I was unwilling to be part of the solution, and I didn't come here to bitch about a problem. I came here to get clear answers as to what's permitted, and I said I wasn't willing to start volunteering to report posts without better guidance than your original response, which was, boiled down, "passing references okay, but chem sex belongs in chem sex". RawTop's answer was a lot more helpful. I realize he's the one who sets the policy and is better equipped to expound on that, but it's rather churlish to blame me for not being willing to act - a voluntary act on my part - based on inadequate guidance.

[viking8x6]

13 hours ago, drscorpio said:

Thanks for your unwillingness to help with the problem while still being willing to come in here and bitch about it. I don't know what else to tell you. 

I kind of get where @BootmanLA is coming from here, TBH -

Here's how I personally perceive it:

Without a clear yardstick, "reporting" someone feels like an accusation of wrongdoing where there might not be any, which in many circles is considered a pretty serious slander. I understand that you want us to "be that guy", but it's hard to do it when a lot of us (including me, with 10+ years on the site) have no idea what happens once we submit that report. We never hear back about what actions were taken, what happened to the post, or what happened to the poster, unless we go looking for it.

Does anyone but the moderator see it? Does the possible offender get to defend himself? Does the identity of the reporter get saved anywhere that it matters? If we had some reassurance about the nature and fairness (or lack thereof - as a longtime contributor to online fora for the last 35 years, I am under no illusion at all that moderation is guaranteed to be objective), it would help us (as members possibly concerned with pissing off or hurting other members) to trust in the process and Do The Right Thing.

I fully understand that there may be very good reasons (site security comes to mind) why it's not possible for some of these details to be revealed to people who aren't moderators or RawTOP. Just putting my 2 cents in trying to see through that glass slightly less darkly.

[drscorpio]

@viking8x6, I just this very minute got through fixing something that I might never have caught if you hadn't reported it. I don't get why this situation is different. 

The fact that you report something does not automatically mean the person gets an infraction. It just means a moderator knows something is there that need to be examined. 

If I were expected to write some sort of public report to fill everyone in on what happened every time someone gets an infraction, this would have to be my full-time job with compensation. As it is moderating this site takes hours of my time every week. 

All the moderators see reports until one of us marks it complete. All reports are saved in a log that moderators can view, but honestly, I might look through it 3-4 times a year to remember how I handled a similar case. The offender can protest how they were treated, and if their protest has merit, the infraction can be eased or removed. The only reason the person reported will ever know you reported them is that you tell them. I mean I suppose a moderator could as well, but I have NEVER done that. 

[drscorpio]

47 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

Thanks, RawTop, for a much more helpful clarification. (As a general rule: clear statements of what is NOT acceptable are more useful because they establish a point that's "beyond the limits"; pointing out just things that are OK only tells you the line is somewhere farther out, but with not much guidance as to "how far" out it is.)

One related question: For lack of a better term, are "orals" lumped in with drugs that are normally smoked or injected as "chem sex" things, assuming they otherwise fall into the usage depiction guidelines above? For instance, I've seen several stories recently that mention the protagonist taking a hit of DrugXYZ, almost always to lower his inhibitions. Like you, I consider pot legal (or at least, it is in enough states that it's not in the same category as meth/coke/crack), but that leaves a lot of addictive oral medications in the gap between.

And DrScorpio - with respect, I didn't say I was unwilling to be part of the solution, and I didn't come here to bitch about a problem. I came here to get clear answers as to what's permitted, and I said I wasn't willing to start volunteering to report posts without better guidance than your original response, which was, boiled down, "passing references okay, but chem sex belongs in chem sex". RawTop's answer was a lot more helpful. I realize he's the one who sets the policy and is better equipped to expound on that, but it's rather churlish to blame me for not being willing to act - a voluntary act on my part - based on inadequate guidance.

I have no idea what you mean by "orals" in this context. If you want guidance, please spell out what you mean and I will try to help. Pot, poppers, and alcohol are okay to talk about everywhere. 

I am glad you found rawTOP's reply helpful although I fail to see how it is materially different from the one I gave. He just gave you more examples of the same concept. 

Making a report should be viewed as "Hey could you look at this? I think it might need attention" rather than "This person is bad. PUNISH them" although we get plenty of the latter. In any case, your report is never going to automatically trigger an infraction for the person. The moderator will assess the problem and act in accordance with the rules as he understands them. 

This is a really shitty week for me. Today is the first anniversary of my husband's death. I am probably a little more churlish that I should be, but your response got on my last nerve last night. I apologize. 

[viking8x6]

6 minutes ago, drscorpio said:

@viking8x6, I just this very minute got through fixing something that I might never have caught if you hadn't reported it. I don't get why this situation is different.

It isn't different. In that particular case (if it's the one I'm thinking of) it was simply that the post was in the wrong place, which was clearly a mistake (as it was obviously a non-sequitur in the thread where it was). So I was sure that I was not making a bad call in that case. In the case of the "gray area" of chems posts, making a call on someone else's post seems more questionable.

And, THANK YOU! This detailed explanation of what happens is exactly what I was hoping you could give us, and makes me (for one) feel much more comfortable about reporting things when it appears there is something wrong. 🙇‍♂️

[BootmanLA]

Apology accepted - we all have bad days/weeks, and you have particular reason to be (and my condolences to you).

Maybe this will help explain why I find RawTop's explanation more helpful. We users are standing on a playing field, and we're told there are edges to the field. We can't see exactly where they are - maybe it's foggy - but we know they're there.

RawTop's answer was akin to: "See those guys over there? They're on the field. Those guys over there? They're on the field. But that group out there? They're definitely out of bounds. Those guys over that direction? That's out of bounds too." It lets you see the line is somewhere between the two concrete, specific references.

Yours (which again, I realize, can't necessarily match his, as the final arbiter, in precision) was more like "Those guys over there, they're on the field, but there's a line out there, and if you see someone cross it, let me know, because you can't cross that line".

As for "orals" - I mean pills, tablets, etc. that are illegal to take without a prescription, certainly illegal to give to someone other than the prescribed person, or something that's not even legal to prescribe. The first group would include amphetamines and narcotics that may be "legal" if prescribed; the latter is stuff like GHB, Ecstasy, etc. that can't legally be prescribed period. Does that help?

[drscorpio]

16 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

As for "orals" - I mean pills, tablets, etc. that are illegal to take without a prescription, certainly illegal to give to someone other than the prescribed person, or something that's not even legal to prescribe. The first group would include amphetamines and narcotics that may be "legal" if prescribed; the latter is stuff like GHB, Ecstasy, etc. that can't legally be prescribed period. Does that help?

I would say all of that belongs in ChemSex. Certainly anything you think of as potentially addictive belongs there. As rawTOP said, a lot of the reason for segregating Chems is so that people who are struggling with addiction can avoid hearing about it.

I wish I could give you black/white answers.  Again , I still feel the best answer is report it, so staff can look at it. 

[rawTOP]

17 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

One related question: For lack of a better term, are "orals" lumped in with drugs that are normally smoked or injected as "chem sex" things, assuming they otherwise fall into the usage depiction guidelines above? For instance, I've seen several stories recently that mention the protagonist taking a hit of DrugXYZ, almost always to lower his inhibitions. Like you, I consider pot legal (or at least, it is in enough states that it's not in the same category as meth/coke/crack), but that leaves a lot of addictive oral medications in the gap between.

Mentioning legitimate use of prescription drugs is fine. "I've been having sleep problem so I take an Ambian every night, so when my roommate came home and saw my bare ass passed out on the couch he took advantage of the situation. I was pretty sure someone was fucking me, but wasn't quite sure who it was or if it was just a vivid dream. The next morning I had to ask if he actually fucked me." That's fine. The pills are being used according to the doctor's Rx.

Not OK would be something like "I just wanted to feel like I was getting raped, so I took an Ambian from my roommates stash, went to the bathhouse, popped the pill and the next 8 hours were just a blur, but when I left cum was pouring out of my ass." That's not OK because it's abuse of Rx drugs.

Likewise stories about being roofied are not OK. (Except in the context of telling a non-sexualized accounting of something that really happened to you – victims of abuse, rape, etc. can always tell their stories provided it's in an objective, non-erotic manner.)

Again, think about the recovering addict. The problem is when you make it seem desirable to abuse prescription drugs.

[BootmanLA]

Thank you - again, that's very helpful with concrete examples. I've seen multiple stories in the last week that had elements essentially like "He gave me a black molly and told me that if I wanted to keep going with him, I had to take the pill, no questions asked, so I gulped it down" (leading to sex where the guy had basically no control over anything) that just struck me as pretty obvious examples of chem sex in stories outside that forum.