is chasing and pozzing a form of hate?

[TattPig]

22 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

Apparently someone can be this clueless.  

i've taken care of people dying because of HIV. Obviously it is because, without taking meds, HIV leads to AID's .  

Here's some stats about HIV and AIDS. supporting what i am asserting about how damaging and destructive HIV is.  Calling this "completely loony"  strikes me as "armchair analyzing."

Oh, my god. Of course you have to take meds! That goes without saying. It also should go without saying that with meds--HIV IS NOT A DEATH SENTENCE. There is no reason that anyone cannot live a normal lifespan while taking meds until there is a cure. So, it is NOT a death sentence. It was 20 years ago, but those days are over, and they've been over for a long time.

Your link does not support what you are asserting, because what you asserted was that "HIV can be a death sentence if you are chasing." Chasing has nothing to do with the seriousness of the infection that you may catch.

I don't need to read your stats. I know the issues. And I know it is not a death sentence. It is a manageable chronic illness. It's 2019., not 1986.

Edited March 14, 2019 by TattPig

[tallslenderguy]

1 hour ago, TattPig said:

Oh, my god. Of course you have to take meds! That goes without saying. It also should go without saying that with meds--HIV IS NOT A DEATH SENTENCE. There is no reason that anyone cannot live a normal lifespan while taking meds until there is a cure. So, it is NOT a death sentence. It was 20 years ago, but those days are over, and they've been over for a long time.

Your link does not support what you are asserting, because what you asserted was that "HIV can be a death sentence if you are chasing." Chasing has nothing to do with the seriousness of the infection that you may catch.

I don't need to read your stats. I know the issues. And I know it is not a death sentence. It is a manageable chronic illness. It's 2019., not 1986.

Oh my god too, lmao. i'm pretty confident you're the only one who has taken what i've written the way you have.  You are stating the obvious, and yes, to assert that HIV is a death sentence if one is taking meds would be incorrect.  i'm not an idiot, that's not what i am talking about. i'm talking about the people who romantasize getting HIV, who purposely do not take meds,  so that they can infect others.  There is a sub culture that calls their selves "gifters" and  "chasers" who purposely try to get infected and infect.  And yeah, i think that trying to get or give a disease can be a form of self hate.

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, TattPig said:

Oh, my god. Of course you have to take meds! That goes without saying. It also should go without saying that with meds--HIV IS NOT A DEATH SENTENCE. There is no reason that anyone cannot live a normal lifespan while taking meds until there is a cure. So, it is NOT a death sentence. It was 20 years ago, but those days are over, and they've been over for a long time.

NO. Almost every word of this hyperbolic screed is incorrect. There persists an average loss of lifespan, in ART-treated HIV+ persons in the developed world, of approaching 13 years. We may currently achieve a reasonable life span, but HIV still shortens the lives of those infected. This has been scientifically borne out.

HIV is currently incurable, and although ART radically slows the progression of the disease an prevents spread, it cannot completely stop the systemic damage to the body caused by the virus. The constant state of inflammation alone predisposes infected persons to potentially life-threatening illnesses.

Even on meds, the immune system of many HIV patients is compromised to some degree, making the patients more likely to catch communicable diseases like influenza (that can and do disproportionately kill children and the elderly) and more likely to die from them.

Finally, meds are never a guarantee of health. In 2016, more than 15,800 persons died from AIDS-related illness in the United States. Try telling all those people, and their loved ones, that HIV isn’t a death sentence.

In fact, try telling me - in August 2014 I was diagnosed with AIDS and only a fluke of anatomy prevented my death from opportunistic fungal meningitis and associated stroke. My CD4 count will never recover, and my life expectancy has been shortened by at least a decade.

You don’t need to read the stats because you know the issues? And I suppose you don’t need to do any math because you get where the Flat Earth people are coming from too.

You have the audacity to suggest that @tallslenderguy, one of our most thoughtful, trustworthy and factual members is a troll? The irony is rich. Where I’m from, they say the guilty dog barks first...

[Pozlover1]

Notice I never criticize chasers. They have heard it all before. I will state the factual issues. I will also welcome them when they get it or are certain they will. I am here to support people with HIV and learn things about it that will help me live better. I do not waste my time on earth trying to make people not ride motorcycles either. 

[find91]

I think chasing and pozzing have to be separated first Pre and post PreP.  Pre PreP I think chasing arose from the massive anxiety of those who went though the AIDS crises and saw  a lot of their friends die from contracting HIV and it Turning to Aids. This built up a lot of anxiety in the gay community because one it massively limited sexual interaction among men and two the fear of catching the virus. All that anxiety needed to be release so I think the mentality if I catch it at least I don't have to worry about living in constant fear. For gifters at that time I think it stemmed from the anger and uncertainty of their own pozzing. Most cases I have heard of HIV transmission ( i'm talking1980-1990s) either it was from an anonymous hookup or it was in a relationship. These two instances have one thing in common a betray of trust. You have to remember around that time AIDS was a practically viewed as a death sentence. So it's a lot to come to terms with one day your fine and the next day ( when you get your diagnosis) you little are slatted to die. There a lot of anger that comes with that. As we move into the 90s there was the heavy safe sex campagne that still used shock value and the fear of death to promote safe condom sex. The problem with that technique is that if you use slogans like " don't have unprotected sex you have a lot to live for". What happens when you don't? You're life is going to shit, or you're a chronic drug users these messages will have the opposite effect to people in those situations. They won't care to protect them self and might even seek out getting infected as a form or self harm. I think this is where pozzing and the death fetishization started to coincide.

Post PreP I think chasing and pozzing has more turned into a fetish about sharing and becoming one. Very similar to breeding fetishes men have, even going as far as taking about getting knocked up when you dam well know a man can't get pregnant but it doesn't have to make sense because it's about the connection two becoming one. I Hear even Pos undetectable guys using pozzing "dirty" talk when they know the can't get infected. So I don't think it's as simple as saying pozzing and chasing sub culture is about self harm.

 

[tallslenderguy]

20 hours ago, find91 said:

 

Post PreP I think chasing and pozzing has more turned into a fetish about sharing and becoming one. Very similar to breeding fetishes men have, even going as far as taking about getting knocked up when you dam well know a man can't get pregnant but it doesn't have to make sense because it's about the connection two becoming one. I Hear even Pos undetectable guys using pozzing "dirty" talk when they know the can't get infected. So I don't think it's as simple as saying pozzing and chasing sub culture is about self harm.

 

Thoughtfully written find91, i think you make some good points about the desire for closeness and oneness being a part of the mix for some.  i should have been more careful in my wording, because i honesty see very few things in black or white, this topic included.  Life, in my experience, is rarely that simple.  So thanks for your thoughtful perspective.

i do still think there are some who have internalized hate, and again would qualify that i don't really think it's a conscious thing for most.  On the other hand, emotionally, i get it... in a big way, because most of sex to me is beyond the physical. i'm one of those guys who loves the idea of having a  permanent part of my Top inside or as part of me. Then my intellect kicks in and says: "hey, this is a disease...."  So, i separate, but i have an emotional construct where i want to have a Top as a part of me, so it's not a simple thing. Emotionally, HIV doesn't figure into the equation for me, but i can see how it could/can... it's not simple. 

[ErosWired]

@find91 - That’s a very nice piece of analysis. With regard to the sense of “I’m going to get infected so I’ll never have to worry again”, I would say that that motivation for chasing has, and has always had, its roots in a deficit of knowledge about the impacts of the virus. Yes, I don’t have the same worry about HIV exposure that I had pre-infection, but that worry has been replaced by fears like, “Am I going to get superinfected with a treatment-resistant strain?” “Am I going to end up with anal cancer?” “What if my CD4 count never reaches 350?” “What if my viral load spikes?” And on and on and on... every living day. In reality, there is no escape until science beats the Enemy Virus once and for all.

You make an interesting point about the sharing/unity factor, though again most of these fetishes don’t stand intellectual scrutiny - another common one is the idea that a bottom is going to assimilate attributes from a Top because the Top’s DNA will become part of his own when he takes the load up his ass. Fun to imagine, except that - Spoiler Alert, you DNA fetishists - the rectum extracts nothing from its contents but water, and even if the load enters via the other hole, the DNA is broken down in the digestive process. You are what you eat, true, but if it worked the way you’re thinking, we’d all be sprouting feathers like the chicken we just ate.

Want an adventure in chasing? Try chasing a chicken...

[tallslenderguy]

7 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

@find91 - That’s a very nice piece of analysis. With regard to the sense of “I’m going to get infected so I’ll never have to worry again”, I would say that that motivation for chasing has, and has always had, its roots in a deficit of knowledge about the impacts of the virus. Yes, I don’t have the same worry about HIV exposure that I had pre-infection, but that worry has been replaced by fears like, “Am I going to get superinfected with a treatment-resistant strain?” “Am I going to end up with anal cancer?” “What if my CD4 count never reaches 350?” “What if my viral load spikes?” And on and on and on... every living day. In reality, there is no escape until science beats the Enemy Virus once and for all.

You make an interesting point about the sharing/unity factor, though again most of these fetishes don’t stand intellectual scrutiny - another common one is the idea that a bottom is going to assimilate attributes from a Top because the Top’s DNA will become part of his own when he takes the load up his ass. Fun to imagine, except that - Spoiler Alert, you DNA fetishists - the rectum extracts nothing from its contents but water, and even if the load enters via the other hole, the DNA is broken down in the digestive process. You are what you eat, true, but if it worked the way you’re thinking, we’d all be sprouting feathers like the chicken we just ate.

Want an adventure in chasing? Try chasing a chicken...

"...a chicken?" lol. sigh. 

It may be that we just know (and experience in my case as a healthcare provider) too much about disease process to be emotionally captivated by chasing/pozzing. For me, it's understanding the destructive force of the disease that keeps it from crossing into my emotions as a desirable "mark"or "connection"  that a Top can leave.  

The first time that a Top pissed up my ass, He purposely plugged it and encouraged and ensured that i'd hold it long enough to absorb some of it. He knew it would combine with my urine as a result. It did, i could smell His scent in my urine when i voided after, just as He told me i would. That ended up being a huge turn on for me, made a big impact emotionally because it was a way of Him becoming a part of me in a sense. i have a similar attitude about a Tops cum. i never expel it or want to lose it, i always want to hold it in me and absorb as much as possible. But intellectually, i get that i am not getting His dna as part of me.  There are other ways as well of getting a part of a Top to become a part of a bottom, but disease to me is not a good idea.

[find91]

1 hour ago, ErosWired said:

@find91 - That’s a very nice piece of analysis. With regard to the sense of “I’m going to get infected so I’ll never have to worry again”, I would say that that motivation for chasing has, and has always had, its roots in a deficit of knowledge about the impacts of the virus. Yes, I don’t have the same worry about HIV exposure that I had pre-infection, but that worry has been replaced by fears like, “Am I going to get superinfected with a treatment-resistant strain?” “Am I going to end up with anal cancer?” “What if my CD4 count never reaches 350?” “What if my viral load spikes?” And on and on and on... every living day. In reality, there is no escape until science beats the Enemy Virus once and for all.

You make an interesting point about the sharing/unity factor, though again most of these fetishes don’t stand intellectual scrutiny - another common one is the idea that a bottom is going to assimilate attributes from a Top because the Top’s DNA will become part of his own when he takes the load up his ass. Fun to imagine, except that - Spoiler Alert, you DNA fetishists - the rectum extracts nothing from its contents but water, and even if the load enters via the other hole, the DNA is broken down in the digestive process. You are what you eat, true, but if it worked the way you’re thinking, we’d all be sprouting feathers like the chicken we just ate.

Want an adventure in chasing? Try chasing a chicken...

Nicely put. I totally agree with your statement "that motivation for chasing has, and has always had, its roots in a deficit of knowledge about the impacts of the virus." I find a lot of that had to do with the early messaging of HIV prevention. There was very little facts on the actual disease and more shock mongering as an attempt to stem the pandemic. I have friends that are pos and this idea of having carefree bareback sex after converting is an illusion and very eronious. Every thing in life comes with risk and consequences, you can never get away from those.

Edited March 15, 2019 by find91

[find91]

2 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

Thoughtfully written find91, i think you make some good points about the desire for closeness and oneness being a part of the mix for some.  i should have been more careful in my wording, because i honesty see very few things in black or white, this topic included.  Life, in my experience, is rarely that simple.  So thanks for your thoughtful perspective.

i do still think there are some who have internalized hate, and again would qualify that i don't really think it's a conscious thing for most.  On the other hand, emotionally, i get it... in a big way, because most of sex to me is beyond the physical. i'm one of those guys who loves the idea of having a  permanent part of my Top inside or as part of me. Then my intellect kicks in and says: "hey, this is a disease...."  So, i separate, but i have an emotional construct where i want to have a Top as a part of me, so it's not a simple thing. Emotionally, HIV doesn't figure into the equation for me, but i can see how it could/can... it's not simple. 

I very much like that you brought this topic up. Lets be frank, ACTUAL chasing and pozzing  is a self destructive behaviour. But like most self destructive behaviour sometimes people are actually doing it for self harm (consciously or unconsciously) or they fall into that pattern of behaviour because emotionally or mentally they just want a release. Like how some of the above comments, their are bottoms that don't look to convert but their need for raw loads allow for lapse in judgement. Is self harm cause from internalized hate maybe or it could just be compulsive behaviour they really love the idea of taking loads simple as that.

Human beings are social creatures so we all have that need and want to connect,  Like you said the risk of catching an incurable disease does not interest you. that is a risk you personally are not willing to take and I think like what ErosWired said you actually understand the true consequence of converting and not just sticking it in the realm of fantasy. Me personally I use fisting as a way to connect.

[tallslenderguy]

3 minutes ago, find91 said:

 

Human beings are social creatures so we all have that need and want to connect,  Like you said the risk of catching an incurable disease does not interest you. that is a risk you personally are not willing to take and I think like what ErosWired said you actually understand the true consequence of converting and not just sticking it in the realm of fantasy. Me personally I use fisting as a way to connect.

i'm poz, i got that way after taking probably a few thousand men inside of me bare. Cognitively, i knew the risks, emotionally i wanted/needed the connection with the guy i was with more, so i took the risk and have no regrets.  When i started the topic, i was thinking of guys who consciously and purposely try to get or give HIV.  i purposely posed it as a question vs a statement, then stated some of my own thoughts and feelings.  As i have read through responses, i can see how this can be much more complex.

 i too think there is a "deficit of knowledge," but that even with that knowledge it doesn't necessarily change ones emotional disposition.  i watched and cared for my once gorgeous brother, die from AID's weighing about 85 pounds, covered in Kaposis and having an anal tube because he had uncontrollable diarrhea. This was in the 80's before we could suppress the disease, yet i still went out and got bred by guys as often as i could get them.  i was not trying to get the disease, i didn't want it, i lived in fear of getting it, but my drive/need/desire to connect with a guy was greater. my intellectual and experiential knowledge of HIV didn't change my emotional disposition. But, my emotional disposition didn't change my intellectual understanding of the disease either. I.e., i didn't change my understanding to try and fit my emotional desire and need. 

i have a strong desire/fantasy to have a Top's hand in me, as well as other parts and stuff that comes out of a Top.  For me it has ever been about what's inside of the Top , i.e., how He feels and how He expresses His needs and desires to connect, more than just cock and cum. To me, those are just two of the ways a Top and bottom can bond. i LOVE Tops who have different ways of making that connection. i think you're a thoughtful, beautiful person, i'm glad you're a part of this community.