"I'm clean, D&D free."

[BootmanLA]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:18 PM, Bearhunter55 said:

I tell guys that I am indeed clean, I shower every day. And if you've had sex ONCE since that day that you posted you were clean (sometimes years ago!! ) you really don't know, do you?   What also kills me is guys on Scruff that say they say they are Neg but they are on "Treatment for Prevention" and if I mention that means they are Poz on Meds not Neg they get confused or huffy- or both. 

I've seen any number of people rant about people on certain apps (Scruff comes to mind, but probably others) listing both "Treatment as Prevention" and "PrEP" as their sexual health strategy. "You can't be on both! It's one or the other! If you're poz then it's TASP and if you're negative then it's PrEP!"

Except those ranters aren't thinking it through. Here's an analogy. I'm a bottom. Let's say I wasn't interested in any form of protection but condoms, so I list "condoms" as my sexual health strategy. That wouldn't mean *I* wear a condom; it means I would want the tops who fuck me to wear one.

Apply that to the prescription-drug-based strategies. A poz person might himself be on treatment as prevention, but ALSO want his negative partner(s) on PrEP for an extra level of protection. A negative person might himself be on PrEP, but also want any poz person he has sex with to be using TASP. It's possible for ONE person to employ BOTH methods in his life, because like condoms, a particular method may be USED by one person, but be relevant to protecting BOTH.

[cumtaker77]

I'm one of those guys who falls into that slim age range who came of age just before the advent of ART's and before the conventional educational message switched from abstain or die to use a condom for protection. The general definitions of the chat room lingo at the time as I understood them were that clean referred to shower/physical cleanliness and d&d or dd free referred to drug and disease free (as crass and blunt as the expression may have been).  Even considering the beliefs of the time and how scared I was of hiv, I could not bring myself to think of a poz person or someone with an std/sti as unclean or dirty.

Now that I am poz myself, that question/comment/phrase of being "clean" has an even deeper meaning to me. I was diagnosed not long before the start of the COVID pandemic and was wholly unprepared for the hit to my mental health that came from trying to come to terms with being poz, the sudden lack of mental health services and support systems, and the unknown of how covid would affect the big treatments. The one thing that stayed constant and that I was able to cling to was that I was not dirty or unclean. 

Due to my kinky nature I enjoy a man that is musky and fragrant as much but probably a little more than a freshly showered one. I understand that this does not apply to most people. I also am not into scat play at all. Therefore, as a total submissive bottom who is not interested in oral only, which I am very up front about, when someone asks if I am clean I take it l literally to mean that they want me to be showered and sufficiently flushed out that an unpleasant experience will be avoided.

We are in a very sexually open and medically enlightened time. Be responsible for yourself and be clear about what you want to know - don't rely on an unclear definition of a slang term. Not even urban dictionary has that listed as a possible meaning of clean.

[Phallarchist]

"Clean" is a perfectly normal shorthand for "free of STDs". The common phrase is "a clean bill of health". In reality, it's extremely common to acquire an HPV strain and have no idea that you carry it, but the general intent of limiting one's exposure to disease is thoroughly laudable. It's fortunately quite easy to skip over the "clean" sermons cluttering up the dating profiles of self-righteous bores, because they're all the same. I am thankful that I wasn't paying attention when the faggot clerisy formulated this point of orthodoxy. The testimonials and editorials must have been as interminable as the topic is trivial.

[PendragonSpirit]

I don't know why anyone would want to be D&D free. Dungeons & Dragons is one of the best games ever!

Oh. Oh, that's not what they meant.

In all seriousness, humanity tends toward simplified terms to describe something without necessarily considering other context. In this case, "clean" becomes shorthand for "As of my most recent testing/to the best of my knowledge, I do not currently have any STIs which I could pass on to you."

I admit, I've been guilty of using the term myself from time to time, until I realized the opposite implied people with an STI were "dirty." But then you run into situations where people will describe themselves (or at least their load) as "dirty" or "toxic", so... 

In short, people and words are confusing and we don't always make the best choices on either.

[ErosWired]

In any setting where more than one sexual partner fucks an individual, and particularly in a cumdump/bathhouse setting, any claim that one is “clean” is only good until after the first fuck. After that, you can’t know until you’re tested again. I could test clean in the morning, get fucked at lunch, and test positive for an STD in the afternoon. I can go into the bathhouse certain that I carry no transmissible contagion (and I make damn sure I always do) but I can offer no one any guarantee after the first Top cunts me.

So really, the question “Are you clean/dd free?” is only meaningful between non-promiscuous/sexually unadventurous people looking for the same.

As to TasP, I’m not sure it’s a useful term in an individual context. TasP is an acronym used not so much to describe an individual prevention strategy, but rather to describe an institutional or governmental strategy that hopes to reduce transmission within a population by promoting universal early treatment upon diagnosis. HIV is the enemy. It will kill any person if given the opportunity. Once a person has it, that person will be treated, or that person will ultimately perish. For me, the fact that my Undetectable status makes it possible for me to fuck safely is a side-effect of the medication I take without fail every day if my life to make sure I don’t die. I don’t take ART to protect myself from infection, and I don’t take it primarily to protect anyone else from infection - I take it to live. It’s not the same as the decision one makes when considering PrEP. It’s take ART - or die. If U did not equal U, I would never fuck anyone again. I will not pass it on.

[tallslenderguy]

What offends me is the utter fantasy land so many seem to live in when it comes to STI's,  and the fantasy is, ironically, often mixed with a superior attitude   It's as though some think the facade is armor, as effective as science.  As has been pointed out, readily available scientific information does not mean all are going to avail themselves of it, or understand it if they do.  What blows my cool is how prevalent this sort of thing still is.  Using my example of the guy who is claiming to be "Clean" and "d&d free" and offers as evidence that he tested negative in Dec 2018 ventures beyond ignorance onto stupid turf. 

i have no issue with guys who want to avoid disease and protect their health, but this method has no basis in reality. It is utterly ludicrous to be asserting such things on a hook up site.  Reality is, unless you go to the clinic with your potential hook up, witness them getting tested, remain with them 24/7 until getting the results, see the actual results before having sex, then there is no way to ensure that person is truly disease free. And that doesn't even account for lab errors or something undetected.  

i'm pretty sure i know who gave me HIV, and i think he gave me syphilis as well. Timing, etc, all point to him. He was a frequent FB and he claimed to be disease free. He disappeared after i told him he needed to be tested.  But i didn't ever harbor ill feelings towards him. i really enjoyed my times with him and do not regret one moment i was with him. 

To me the crux of this is taking personal responsibility.  Disease is a reality of life. These days you can get Covid and die from just going to the grocery store.  i can wear a face condom (i.e. a mask) to reduce the chances of spreading droplets, and i can get vaccinated.  But asking all the people in the grocery store if they are disease free would just be silly.  my being gay and wanting to be fucked is also a reality of life.  One cannot reasonably  have sex with a guy without some risk of disease, and this should be basic, common knowledge, especially to those who are actively cruising for sex!!  i do not go looking for disease, i get checked regularly for all the usual sti's when i am getting my HIV undetectable status checked, so i am prolly safer than the average hook up site cruiser. But i never claim to be disease free, and am upfront about my HIV status. Because that is simply reality. if i want to be with you,  receive your cock and cum into me, i am fully cognizant that i am risking getting an STI as well.  If you know you have something, i appreciate if you tell me, but honestly, it's not a discussion i ever have or realistically think i can  have when i am looking to connect on a hook up site lol.  

[ErosWired]

13 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

And that doesn't even account for lab errors or something undetected.

The reason I ended up at death’s door with a CD4 count of 49 and a viral load of 84,000 wasn’t that I never bothered to get tested. I did, several times. I was even tested three years earlier in the hospital when I was very sick with what I now realize was my seroconversion - and every single one of those tests came back false negative. I never tested positive for HIV until I had AIDS. My doctor’s explanation: “Science failed you.”

I nonetheless still firmly believe in science, and I always will. Science may have nearly let me die, but it has also saved my life.

Edited August 12, 2021 by ErosWired