PReP avoiders

[Guest]

2 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

Does anyone read the fine print on meds?  Do their research deeply in depth before taking?  Like any type of pill or shot given, one should know what all they are truly getting or going to get along with the long term effects. 

You raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the known and still unknown side-effects in the long run, should then be weighed against the alternative of not taking medication (either as PrEP or as Anti-retroviral treatment (ART)? And that alternative is the chance of an HIV-infection and the possible development of AIDS if someone effected doesn't use the medication.

It's exactly because of this damned of you do and damned if you don't-dilemma, I feel there is still a need for a working real cure and/or vaccine against HIV.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Guest

[PozBearWI]

3 hours ago, BareLover666 said:

You raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the known and still unknown side-effects in the long run, should then be weighed against the alternative of not taking medication (either as PrEP or as Anti-retroviral treatment (ART)? And that alternative is the chance of an HIV-infection and the possible development of AIDS if someone effected doesn't use the medication.

It's exactly because of this damned of you do and damned if you don't-dilemma, I feel there is still a need for a working real cure and/or vaccine against HIV.

 

 

Given what we've seen available for all sorts of what used to be uncurable disease, I would not be at all surprised to see an HIV vaccine at a point.  I recall when HepC was uncurable.  Now it is curable.  

Also, a whole lot of this is due in a large part to AIDS epidemic and the vase research since then as we have unpacked the human genome and come to a better understanding of how our bodies immune systems work.  

It makes hugely more sense to get on PrEP if one is neg along with HPV, Hep A/B vaccines, etc.  If one chooses not to, I don't think one has much cause to whine about it if they get one of those.  

In just a short bit of use of our friend google; checking out the lifecycle of a virus makes for an interesting read.  (and that read is NOT research - we need to put a pin in the notion that googling something as certain football stars do is "doing their research".)  Scientists research.  

[Guest]

8 hours ago, BareLover666 said:

You raise an interesting point.
Perhaps the known and still unknown side-effects in the long run, should then be weighed against the alternative of not taking medication (either as PrEP or as Anti-retroviral treatment (ART)? And that alternative is the chance of an HIV-infection and the possible development of AIDS if someone effected doesn't use the medication.

It's exactly because of this damned of you do and damned if you don't-dilemma, I feel there is still a need for a working real cure and/or vaccine against HIV.

 

 

Correct;  Living through many things that most would have given up and die from some how I survived.  there are so many things on earth that can take life away, spiders, snakes, auto, air, fire, water.  I discovered we don't know our expiration dates.  I've lived through a few.  Speaking only for myself as I truly learned I was fearing death.  After everything I've been through I no longer fear death.  I live for today, when I wake up the next day I live for that day.  Society has dragged us down to a level of control and fear. Fear, Fear, Fear, control, control control, fear fear and on and on.  I can't personally live in that bubble, I would go crazy.   

Being one that loves nature saved my life.  I spend a large part of my life with wild creatures.  I don't show them fear, they don't bother me allowing me to get amazing photos & videos. Being in nature naked is the best. 

So for me I live as myself only.  I don't take prep, don't need it.  If I needed HIV meds I would take them as those meds are even used for covid and many other things most didn't know.  Knowing more than you thought possible is key to living happy.  But those are my feelings.  Everyone else has theirs and everyone should be respected for their personal feelings.  I don't let people or media influence me anymore, they do it only to benefit themselves like world leaders do.  It's not right.  I live & think for myself, no drama comes true inner happiness. 

Thank You!

[BootmanLA]

1 hour ago, NatureBoy said:

So for me I live as myself only.  I don't take prep, don't need it. 

"Need"? Perhaps not. "Could absolutely benefit from? If you are a bareback bottom, as your profile suggests, you could certainly benefit from it.

1 hour ago, NatureBoy said:

If I needed HIV meds I would take them as those meds are even used for covid and many other things most didn't know.

You should know that the meds for HIV generally contain the same meds, or classes of meds, as PrEP, PLUS additional components needed to keep an active HIV infection under control (because PrEP can't). In other words, skipping PrEP for the side effects assuming you'll be OK on HIV meds is pretty much stupid; you're not only going to then face the same potential side effects, but more of them (because HIV meds contain additional components) AND you won't have the option of stopping when you're not sexually active, as you can with PrEP.

Also, no, HIV meds are not used to treat Covid. Some of the medications now used to treat Covid are in the same *classes* of drugs as some HIV meds, but they are not the same drugs. In fact, speaking broadly, there were multiple studies done early in the pandemic that pretty much conclusively demonstrated HIV medications were of little to no use in fighting Covid. And even if they were, the point was that these are not baby aspirin; they're serious meds with potentially significant side effects, not something that you can take to ward off Covid like an allergy pill.

2 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

I don't let people or media influence me anymore, they do it only to benefit themselves like world leaders do. 

Well, you're letting someone influence you, because you're clearly getting bad information about medication from somewhere. 

[PozBearWI]

@BootmanLA Nice thoughtful response. to @NatureBoy.  It didn't make any sense that HIV meds would be used for covid because otherwise Poz guys on meds would already be protected from covid, and that would definitely have made mainstream news.  And that would have been great news for you.  

🙂  Guess I'll go grab my bottle of bleach to quench my thirst.  LOL

I just got back on BZ this year after a several year hiatus.  And I am so happy to read the posts of level headed informed brothers here.  The quality I liked back then is still here.  

 

Jim

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, WiChaser said:

@BootmanLA Nice thoughtful response. to @NatureBoy.  It didn't make any sense that HIV meds would be used for covid because otherwise Poz guys on meds would already be protected from covid, and that would definitely have made mainstream news.  And that would have been great news for you.  

🙂  Guess I'll go grab my bottle of bleach to quench my thirst.  LOL

I just got back on BZ this year after a several year hiatus.  And I am so happy to read the posts of level headed informed brothers here.  The quality I liked back then is still here.  

 

Jim

 

Hey Jim thank you  very much!  Not everything makes it to the news. 

[think before following links] https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/hiv-medications-may-lower-risk-covid-getting-severe-coronavirus-symptoms/

[Guest]

HIV Drugs in Clinical Trials to Treat COVID-19—What You Need to Know. 
[think before following links] https://www.thebody.com/article/hiv-drugs-clinical-trials-to-treat-covid-19

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

Hey Jim thank you  very much!  Not everything makes it to the news. 

[think before following links] [think before following links] https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/hiv-medications-may-lower-risk-covid-getting-severe-coronavirus-symptoms/

The problem is that this study's results do not line up with what you said, which is (to quote): "those meds are even used for covid." That is incorrect. What the study found is that if you are ALREADY taking HIV meds, you are at lower risk for Covid infection and your symptoms may be milder. That is a huge - HUGE - distance from using HIV meds to treat Covid.

2 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

HIV Drugs in Clinical Trials to Treat COVID-19—What You Need to Know. 
[think before following links] [think before following links] https://www.thebody.com/article/hiv-drugs-clinical-trials-to-treat-covid-19

And here's the second problem: Yes, this approach was studied. Notice the date on this article is from May 2020, coming up on 2 years ago. Here are some of the reports on the success (or rather, lack thereof) from those studies:

[think before following links] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/10/study-hiv-drug-no-benefit-hospitalized-covid-patients

While this link takes you to a page that requires further exploration, click on the second "+" sign for a detailed answer:

[think before following links] https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-hiv-and-antiretrovirals

In response to the specific, 77,000-person study your article noted, see the following:

[think before following links] https://www.thebodypro.com/article/hiv-meds-may-not-reduce-covid-19-risk-experts-say

And so on.

I get that you "don't let people or media influence me anymore" but since you're going to post links, it's only reasonable to look at all the links, not just the ones that (very early on, rather prematurely) supported your premise.

 

[fskn]

16 hours ago, BareLover666 said:

there is still a need for a working real cure and/or vaccine against HIV.

Absolutely agree. PrEP and ART, for all that they are extremely effective, do not eliminate the need for an HIV vaccine or cure.

Note: This field of research recognizes different degrees of "cure". If the virus cannot be completely eradicated from the body, can its activity be reduced to the point where no damage is done, but ART can be stopped? Can this low level of viral activity be achieved after a single treatment with the "cure" product? If not, how often is re-treatment necessary? Where to plant the HIV "cure research" goalpost is not a simple or obvious question.

There is some noise about PrEP side effects. Truvada, the most common of the three products approved for HIV prevention in the US, was approved for HIV treatment in 2004. Its two component drugs were approved, again for HIV treatment, in 2001 and 2003. Truvada or its components are extremely common in first-line HIV treatment regimens worldwide. Notwithstanding almost two decades of use in a huge patient base, Truvada and its components have also been well studied. There is an ample body of empirical research; the side effects of Truvada are mild or uncommon.

Appropriate screening and monitoring for the severe but uncommon side effects of Truvada is part of the US CDC PrEP guidelines. People who are worried about potential side effects should talk with a medical professional who is licensed to provide PrEP care and has specific experience. (Experience is important. In the rare cases where, for example, a PrEP patient has poor kidney test results, doctors experienced with PrEP care know what to do, and can even, in some cases, continue treatment after a pause. I've heard talks by public health and university research physicians in San Francisco on this very point. These people worked on clinical trials of Truvada for PrEP and have provided PrEP care to large numbers of patients.)

As for long-term side effects, considering the stakes involved when a person really is a good candidate for PrEP (a high probability that the person would otherwise eventually get HIV due to high-risk behavior), it is irrational to dismiss PrEP solely for fear of side effects that have not manifested in nearly two decades of widespread use of Truvada and its two component drugs.

Let us not have any part in sowing fear. An experienced medical professional is the person to talk to if someone has doubts about PrEP.

[PigBoyDallas]

I know a few guys I play with that aren’t on prep and they kind of have similar reasons for it. Most don’t have insurance and can’t afford it or are on their parents insurance and don’t want their parents finding out. Some live at home and worry their parents or siblings will find their meds. A lot of them aren’t out and know that prep will out them. Some cite people getting liver and kidney problems and complications from the meds. One bud isn’t good on taking his existing meds and worries he’d do the same with prep. I’ve tried explaining that they’re programs for no cost/low cost prep depending on your situation but then they mention the costs of doctors visits, blood work, and so on. Ultimately it’s a mix of stubbornness, lethargy, and inertia. It’s tough to motivate people who keep finding one excuse after another. To a degree it’s magical thinking that somehow they’ll get lucky, yet they don’t do anything to miniseries risk and continue to bareback, do anon hookups, and such. I’m sure some of them are poz and don’t even know it as most of them don’t get tested regularly either.

[Lily95]

For me it's more the fact i cant afford it.

[BootmanLA]

7 hours ago, Lily95 said:

For me it's more the fact i cant afford it.

Kinda hard to give credence to that when your profile says you're looking for a gifter. It may well be out of reach financially for you (although: no-copy insurance mandate, state assistance programs, etc. etc.). But looking to be gifted is fundamentally incompatible with actually wanting PrEP.

[Lily95]

7 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Kinda hard to give credence to that when your profile says you're looking for a gifter. It may well be out of reach financially for you (although: no-copy insurance mandate, state assistance programs, etc. etc.). But looking to be gifted is fundamentally incompatible with actually wanting PrEP.

Im just saying i cant afford it even if i wanted to.

[fskn]

1 hour ago, Lily95 said:

Im just saying i cant afford it even if i wanted to.

For other Americans who come across this thread and who are interested in PrEP, it is now free in almost all cases.

• Virtually all private health insurance plans are required to provide all PrEP care, that is, office visits, laboratory tests, and an FDA-approved PrEP medication (of which there are now three: two pills and one injectable) free of charge, that is, without applying a deductible and without charging flat-dollar copayments or percentage coinsurance. Plans cannot require any form of pre-approval for the free PrEP product that they cover. This is the preventive care mandate. Grandfathered plans are the only exceptions.

• In all states, people with moderate incomes qualify for Affordable Care Act private health plans, all of which are subject to the requirement mentioned above. Generous subsidies are available, based on your income and the cost of the plan, to reduce your monthly insurance premium.

• Medicaid plans in many, if not all, states also cover PrEP care at no cost. In states with Medicaid expansion, it is easy for people with a low income or no income to qualify for free health insurance.

• In some states, Ryan White Act funds are available to cover PrEP care.

• Gilead, the original manufacturer of two of the three FDA-approved PrEP medications, offers two patient assistance programs. Regardless of income, people not participating in government insurance (Medicare, Medicaid, VA) can receive thousands of dollars a year toward the cost of brand-name Truvada or Descovy. A quick phone call to Gilead's partner is all it takes. People with low incomes can apply to have Gilead pay the full cost of either medication. Your health provider must then write your Truvada prescription so that pharmacies cannot substitute a generic equivalent. (Generic drug manufacturer Teva has a less generous assistance program and prices its product at nearly the same price as Truvada. Generic manufacturer Aurobindo has no assistance program, but prices its product at a much lower price than Truvada; see below.) There is no generic equivalent of Descovy, so substitution is not a concern. Patient assistance programs do not cover office visits or testing. That said, there are very few scenarios where a person would need a patient assistance program anymore, given the options mentioned above.

• Aurobindo makes an approved generic equivalent to Truvada which sells for about $1 per pill. Especially when used with on-demand or "2-1-1" PrEP, per the 2021 CDC guidelines, this drastically reduces the cost of medication. Obviously, office visits and lab tests are not included. Once again, today, most Americans are able to obtain free public or subsidized private health insurance if they have no, low, or moderate incomes.

• Rules of practice in some states allow non-doctors to prescribe PrEP. Depending on the state, a nurse practitioner, a physician's assistant, or even a pharmacist can prescribe PrEP. This can drastically reduce the cost of office visits, again, in the rare cases where free or subsidized insurance is not possible.

Do not assume that you cannot afford PrEP. Visit a federally qualified health clinic in your area, a GLBT-focused health clinic, a branch of Planned Parenthood, a city or county health department, or a non-profit organization that assists with Affordable Care Act enrollment. As a last resort, look up "Advancing Access" from Gilead, or ask any pharmacist about Aurobindo's generic version of Truvada.

Also: If PrEP were truly unaffordable to you, then HIV treatment would also be. HIV treatment requires more visits, tests and drugs (typically, a daily pill with 3 drugs, instead of a daily or intermittent pill with 2 drugs, for PrEP). Please, ask one of the agencies listed above for help. If you don't seek help to for PrEP, you might end up having to seek help for HIV treatment.

Edited January 30, 2022 by fskn
Typo; and no pre-approval requirement

[Guest]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:50 AM, fskn said:

As for long-term side effects, considering the stakes involved when a person really is a good candidate for PrEP (a high probability that the person would otherwise eventually get HIV due to high-risk behavior), it is irrational to dismiss PrEP solely for fear of side effects that have not manifested in nearly two decades of widespread use of Truvada and its two component drugs.

You are spot on as it is about weighing the risks and consequences of an HIV infection against the side effects.

I'd like to add that there are some side-effects that are often (1 to 10 %) reported like having trouble sleeping and abnormal dreams that could be considered mild to one person, but can subjectively be experienced as (too) severe. They of course do go away if someone stops using PrEP or changes the medication when uses as ART.

Because - like Covid-19 - this is a global pandemic that in this case hits people outside the Westen part of the world harder especially where people don't have the same kind of exces to health-care as we do, I feel there really is a need for a cure / kind of vaccination against HIV to really solve this.
I also feel it's because HIV is sexually transmissible that is one cause why there isn't been invested enough in the research to achieve this and the political leaders in our world are too much empasising on changing how we have sex. (Using condoms, monogamy, no anal-penetrative-sex).

 

On 1/29/2022 at 12:50 PM, Lily95 said:

For me it's more the fact i cant afford it.

If you do get infected, what happens then with regards to cost? Would you be able to effort treatment then; Would treatment be fully covered by whatever health-insurance or -plan you use?