Reasons to make the decision to stop with prep

[Kimberley]

I'm curious for those people that making the decision to stop with prep and just let it happend or actually go chasing to be pozzed?

i know there a lot of guys who are getting horny about being pozzed up, but besides that, are there any other reasons? maybe because it don't make any difference swallowing prep each day or swallowing HIV meds because you're poz? im curious about those thoughts other than just i like to be poz

[ErosWired]

Here’s the difference.

With PrEP, you don’t end up with a reservoir of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus in your body trying constantly, every minute of every day, to turn the cells of your body into more copies of itself. When you “let it happen naturally”, you do, and although you may then take ART every day for the rest of your life after that, you will never be able to get rid of that reservoir inside your body.

But so what, right? PrEP’s the same medicine as ART, and nowadays, if you take ART it’s like you don’t even have HIV, right? Plus, now you don’t have to worry about catching it and can fuck like pigs! Bonus

So. Wrong.

Just before I read your post, I had just finished reading several articles about studies on living with HIV, its effect on life expectancy, and its impact on the rates of developing comorbid illness. You might hear the news that thanks to ART, a guy with HIV can now expect to live to be the same age as a guy without HIV...

If he was 21 when diagnosed, caught the infection early, began ART before his CD4 levels dropped below 500, and was totally compliant taking his medication. If he was older, caught the infection later, didn’t start ART until his CD4 had tanked, or skipped his meds, that life expectancy doesn’t measure up.

More good news: Even if you live just about as long as Neg Dude, you’re not going to have as many healthy years as he is. On the average, you’re going to run almost double the risk of certain cardiovascular illnesses, non-AIDS cancers, kidney and liver disease, bone loss, and a whole slew of other bodily breakdowns because the virus is in you, your body is in a constant state of inflammation, 24/7/365.

But you want to know about why it matters whether you take PrEP vs. ART, and here’s the big difference, and the teal kick in the teeth in all this - and read this very carefully, because it matters:

If you get HIV your body’s immune system will be destroyed and you will die of other diseases. If you do not take ART, take it consistently, and take it for the rest of your life, you will die. You have no choice. Even if you do, the virus’ constant assault on your body will wear down your organs and your systems and cause early illness. But what’s worse is that your ART, the very medication that keeps you from dying, is also causing some of that deterioration in your organs because of its side-effects, and you cannot stop taking it.

On the other hand, you could take PrEP, take it as directed, fuck responsibly, never get the disease at all... and be able to stop taking the medicine without committing suicide.

This is so important. The difference between taking PrEP and taking ART is that there is a difference between the sexual pozzing fetish that turns you on, and the cold, hard reality of suffering that is HIV. You must learn to recognize where the line between them lies, and where you need to stop before you cross it.

You may think you want to be HIV positive, but this isn’t one of those ‘hey, it’s a personal choice’ things - it’s not a question about personal style or philosophy - no, really - really, really - You Do Not Want This. No sane human being would want this.

[BootmanLA]

8 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

This is so important. The difference between taking PrEP and taking ART is that there is a difference between the sexual pozzing fetish that turns you on, and the cold, hard reality of suffering that is HIV. You must learn to recognize where the line between them lies, and where you need to stop before you cross it.

You may think you want to be HIV positive, but this isn’t one of those ‘hey, it’s a personal choice’ things - it’s not a question about personal style or philosophy - no, really - really, really - You Do Not Want This. No sane human being would want this.

So much this.

To which I'd add: there is this horribly toxic myth of a "Poz Brotherhood", where you suddenly are liberated from all the constraints that hobble ordinary mortals and you're free to indulge all your desires, without worrying about anything else. And sure, as @ErosWired noted, you CAN do that - and die a miserable death much, much earlier than you otherwise would. But your so-called "brothers"? They're not going to show up and take you to the Urgent Care or ER every time you contract a serious infection. They're not going to be delivering you food on the days you don't feel strong enough to stand up in the kitchen and fix a meal for yourself. And most definitely they're not going to be paying your medical bills when you start having to make two or three ER visits in a year and you lose your work insurance because you can't work any more.

Brotherhood? It's more like that cool-but-toxic friend so many of us had when we were younger, always daring us to do something insanely stupid, that we gladly obeyed because we so wanted his approval - that then cut and ran the moment the insanely stupid act got us in trouble. Brotherhood my ass.

Or you can do the responsible thing and get treated, and take those pills every day for the rest of your life, hoping that you're staying ahead of the damage they're (slowly but inexorably) causing in your system.

Or - as he notes - you can avoid all this by getting on PrEP early and staying on it. When you know you're not going to be in a position to have sex for a while, you can stop it, as long as you restart a week or so before you start having sex again. You can thus reduce the toxicity the meds place on your body without putting yourself at risk. And if your sex drive wanes as you hit middle age, or late middle age, you can go off PrEP again to have more years of not imposing any toll on your body. 

[Kimberley]

13 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

Here’s the difference.

With PrEP, you don’t end up with a reservoir of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus in your body trying constantly, every minute of every day, to turn the cells of your body into more copies of itself. When you “let it happen naturally”, you do, and although you may then take ART every day for the rest of your life after that, you will never be able to get rid of that reservoir inside your body.

But so what, right? PrEP’s the same medicine as ART, and nowadays, if you take ART it’s like you don’t even have HIV, right? Plus, now you don’t have to worry about catching it and can fuck like pigs! Bonus

So. Wrong.

Just before I read your post, I had just finished reading several articles about studies on living with HIV, its effect on life expectancy, and its impact on the rates of developing comorbid illness. You might hear the news that thanks to ART, a guy with HIV can now expect to live to be the same age as a guy without HIV...

If he was 21 when diagnosed, caught the infection early, began ART before his CD4 levels dropped below 500, and was totally compliant taking his medication. If he was older, caught the infection later, didn’t start ART until his CD4 had tanked, or skipped his meds, that life expectancy doesn’t measure up.

More good news: Even if you live just about as long as Neg Dude, you’re not going to have as many healthy years as he is. On the average, you’re going to run almost double the risk of certain cardiovascular illnesses, non-AIDS cancers, kidney and liver disease, bone loss, and a whole slew of other bodily breakdowns because the virus is in you, your body is in a constant state of inflammation, 24/7/365.

But you want to know about why it matters whether you take PrEP vs. ART, and here’s the big difference, and the teal kick in the teeth in all this - and read this very carefully, because it matters:

If you get HIV your body’s immune system will be destroyed and you will die of other diseases. If you do not take ART, take it consistently, and take it for the rest of your life, you will die. You have no choice. Even if you do, the virus’ constant assault on your body will wear down your organs and your systems and cause early illness. But what’s worse is that your ART, the very medication that keeps you from dying, is also causing some of that deterioration in your organs because of its side-effects, and you cannot stop taking it.

On the other hand, you could take PrEP, take it as directed, fuck responsibly, never get the disease at all... and be able to stop taking the medicine without committing suicide.

This is so important. The difference between taking PrEP and taking ART is that there is a difference between the sexual pozzing fetish that turns you on, and the cold, hard reality of suffering that is HIV. You must learn to recognize where the line between them lies, and where you need to stop before you cross it.

You may think you want to be HIV positive, but this isn’t one of those ‘hey, it’s a personal choice’ things - it’s not a question about personal style or philosophy - no, really - really, really - You Do Not Want This. No sane human being would want this.

Thank you for explaining, but i already knew the diffrence about neg/poz. that's not my question here. there are people out there with reasons why they stop with prep and choose to risk or even chasing poz loads. i'm curious what reasons are behind that decision, exept from the fact they just want to be poz and that's all. because there must be more/other reasons besides that i guess. are they prep tired? or what other reasons have they?

[BootmanLA]

Just now, Kimberley said:

Thank you for explaining, but i already knew the diffrence about neg/poz. that's not my question here. there are people out there with reasons why they stop with prep and choose to risk or even chasing poz loads. i'm curious what reasons are behind that decision, exept from the fact they just want to be poz and that's all. because there must be more/other reasons besides that i guess. are they prep tired? or what other reasons have they?

What makes you so certain that "there must be more/other reasons"? 

[ErosWired]

4 minutes ago, Kimberley said:

Thank you for explaining, but i already knew the diffrence about neg/poz. that's not my question here. there are people out there with reasons why they stop with prep and choose to risk or even chasing poz loads. i'm curious what reasons are behind that decision, exept from the fact they just want to be poz and that's all. because there must be more/other reasons besides that i guess. are they prep tired? or what other reasons have they?

I understood your question. It’s the fact that you asked it on the HIV/AIDS & Sexual Health board that prompted me to reply, because your question not only implies that a choice to consciously contract HIV can have a reasonable basis, but opens up a platform for bugchaser and pozzing apologists to make misguided and ill-informed arguments that may lead real people to make real decisions that will cause real consequences in their lives and bring about real suffering. My reply was intended not so much to provide you with an answer as to address its underlying assumptions before they blossomed into something that would cause this thread to have to be moved to the bugchasing forum, as has happened recently.

If you want to dig into the minds and motivations of men predisposed to catching sexually transmitted diseases, I would suggest the more suitable location for inquiry - and where you’re likely to get more robust response of the type you’re looking for - would be in the Backroom.

[Kimberley]

1 minute ago, ErosWired said:

I understood your question. It’s the fact that you asked it on the HIV/AIDS & Sexual Health board that prompted me to reply, because your question not only implies that a choice to consciously contract HIV can have a reasonable basis, but opens up a platform for bugchaser and pozzing apologists to make misguided and ill-informed arguments that may lead real people to make real decisions that will cause real consequences in their lives and bring about real suffering. My reply was intended not so much to provide you with an answer as to address its underlying assumptions before they blossomed into something that would cause this thread to have to be moved to the bugchasing forum, as has happened recently.

If you want to dig into the minds and motivations of men predisposed to catching sexually transmitted diseases, I would suggest the more suitable location for inquiry - and where you’re likely to get more robust response of the type you’re looking for - would be in the Backroom.

 

I was doubting if it belongs to the backroom bugchasing section. it's about prep discussion and the reason behind it to stop with prep. (other reason than just chasing the bug because they want to be poz. don't really read that there

[BootmanLA]

4 hours ago, Kimberley said:

 

I was doubting if it belongs to the backroom bugchasing section. it's about prep discussion and the reason behind it to stop with prep. (other reason than just chasing the bug because they want to be poz. don't really read that there

The Backroom is *exactly* the place where discussions of why people want to be poz go.

Maybe - just maybe - there is some rational reason, somewhere, where people who don't want to be poz nevertheless go off PrEP. But outside of planning to never have sex again, I can't envision what it is.

[hntnhole]

4 hours ago, Kimberley said:

Thank you for explaining, but i already knew the diffrence about neg/poz. that's not my question here. there are people out there with reasons why they stop with prep and choose to risk or even chasing poz loads. i'm curious what reasons are behind that decision, exept from the fact they just want to be poz and that's all. because there must be more/other reasons besides that i guess. are they prep tired? or what other reasons have they?

Well, Kimberley, your recent post above implies some sort of "reason", or "reasoning", which in turn, implies some sort of intellectual investigation into whatever the subject matter happens to be. As regards the point of the post, there is virtually little "reason" involved; it's almost entirely fantasy-based, which has little to do with "reasoning".  Some decisions can be made "on the fly", for instance, whether to order chocolate or vanilla at an ice cream shop.  Many of the postings BZ are based not in reason, but in fantasy. Thus, expecting sound "reasoning" behind decisions like what you're describing is not available.  There are no "reasons", these guys that think they're "joining" something are fantasizing.  What is valid  however, is what potential actions a man thinks through, considers carefully, and in time, arrives at what is right for him, and only him.  That decision may be the correct one for him, and no other, since we must make decisions of this importance for ourselves.  You've already done an admirable thing, in asking others who have made their decision at some prior point.  Obviously though, this site is mostly populated by men more interested in sharing their adventures than a more health-care-related website. Perhaps you could find a website, or almost certainly one or more recommended by any number of guys here that is focused on the questions you ask. 

And since BZ is not a health-care focused website ... on Breeding Zone, it's not about penis, it's not about anus, it's not about semen ...

It's all about Cock/Hole/Sperm

[ErosWired]

1 hour ago, BootmanLA said:

Maybe - just maybe - there is some rational reason, somewhere, where people who don't want to be poz nevertheless go off PrEP.

There is, potentially, a rationale that a man who does not wish to become positive might entertain in his mind for not using PrEP, and that is the fact that PrEP is not harmless. Some individuals may find the side effects not tolerable, and even if the short-term side effects pose no difficulty, long-term, consistent use of the medication in the way required to maintain an effective barrier to infection can potentially have adverse consequences for kidney, liver and some cardiovascular function, particularly if there are other complicating factors like smoking and obesity.

I can see a man weighing the relative risk in his mind, given the frequency of his personal sexual activity, between a risk of slowly systematically essentially ‘poisoning’ himself with a harsh medication and rolling the dice on the chance of catching the virus, given its real-world probability of transmission. I can see a guy running the numbers and making a personal decision about his own risk.

Which, in the end, is what every one of us does - only some do so on the basis of reality and some do so on the basis of fantasy and hype.

Kimberley is apparently asking what reasons men base their decision to stop PrEP on other than simply wanting to be positive. I understand the question a little better, but from reading these boards for the last four years I’m still  pretty convinced that just about any answer that would pop up would beg a response just like the first one I gave.

Because it’s too hard for me to get PrEP/can’t afford it/doctor won’t prescribe it/my parents would find out

Yeah. And all that’s going to be so much easier when it’s ART instead, right? Logical fail, especially when there are solutions to all these sorts of issues.

Because I can just take PEP/TasP instead

Get an education. TasP (Treatment as Prevention) is when you’ve already got HIV and are taking your ART to protect others. PEP (Post-Exposure Prophylaxis) is approached by the medical community as an emergency intervention. It has to be administered within 72 hours of exposure and then you have to take it for 28 consecutive days or it may be ineffective. The medical standard is that it’s for incidental, isolated emergency use, not a pattern of risky behavior - your insurance might cover it the first time, but good luck after that. It ain’t cheap.

I just take it when I need it

Then it’s not going to be in your body holding off the virus when you need it. You have to take it regularly, not sometimes. You can’t skip around and expect it to work. It’s not a condom in pill form.

I don’t like taking medicine/don’t trust doctors

Your choice doesn’t make sense then, because, sooner or later, you stand a significant chance of spending a lot of time in a hospital and then taking pills every day from then on.

 If I’m going to get it, I’m going to get it - there’s no arguing with Fate. I may as well fuck without worrying about something I can’t change

Oh, a fatalist, are we? So the King, standing on the battlements of the castle with his soldiers, sees the barbarian horde surging across the plain. “Sire!” says his Captain of Guard, “They bring battle. We must close the castle gate and secure the surround!” “Nay,” says the King, “the Fates have spun the cloth of each of our lives already; if it is fated we should die by heathen spear, then die we shall. Why die in futile effort closing gates? Come, let us go in and enjoy our feast.” The Captain of Guard hears the King, looks again at the bristling line of spears, says, “Fuck that,” and tips the King over the wall. He shouts to his men below. “Close the Goddamn gate, and be quick about it!” Because only an idiot leaves the gate open for the fucking barbarians.

My Alpha/Dom/Master/Sir/Owner won’t let me

Okay, brother, let’s get really real here. I know what you’re saying, because a man owned my physical body for six years and did what he liked, right down to running needles through my nuts, so I get submission. And you and I both know, deep down, that that guy doesn’t actually have the right to decide that. It doesn’t matter what you agreed to, doesn’t matter what your “contract” is, he doesn’t ever get to decide to put your life at risk. Play is play. Don’t get it twisted. And I’m saying that as someone for whom it’s gotten pretty fucking twisted.

 

There may be more “reasons” like these why non-chasers might rationalize giving up taking advantage of the miracle of modern science that has liberated us from the Dark Years when an HIV diagnosis was a death sentence and blithely live and fuck as though AIDS is something “nobody dies from anymore” (try telling that to Africa). But I absolutely defy anyone to produce a credible reason that doesn’t require him to put his life on the line to make that decision, and any reason that doesn’t give death its due cannot call itself a product of reason.

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, hntnhole said:

And since BZ is not a health-care focused website ...

Perhaps not, but within Breedingzone, this one forum is specifically health-care focused. Sometimes it takes some effort to ensure that it stays that way so that it can serve as a badly needed source of plain and reliable information to guide men in making healthy decisions for their own lives.

[hntnhole]

Isn't this the section for health-care focused sharing of information?

[ErosWired]

I’ve written quite a lot above, and I apologize to forum readers for my wordiness. Looking back over it all, I realize much of it can be summarized in a tl;dr-convenient form.

PrEP has created a sea-change in the world of mansex, and the miraculous nature of that change is not always obvious to the latter generation of men who have been spared the horrors of the AIDS crisis. This difference in awareness, in part, contributes to divergence of attitude toward using PrEP.

The reasons Neg men give for deciding not to protect themselves with PrEP fall into three basic groups: A) A decision that the negative health effects caused by taking PrEP outweigh the calculated risk of acquiring an HIV infection; B) Getting and/or correctly using PrEP is in some way a hassle; and C) A desire to actually become infected with HIV.

In terms of (A), the FDA has determined that PrEP is safe and effective used as directed, but there are health effects. The health effects of an HIV infection are the same plus a suitcase full of hell. So no matter how you look at it, (A) is a very high-stakes roll of the dice for a relatively small return if you win.

In every case of (B), put the nature of the hassle complained about on one side of the scale, and then put the hassle of living with an HIV infection on the other side. BOOM. The HIV side drops like a rock, every. single. time. (B) might be a reason, but it’s never a good reason.

(C) is a decision to become unhealthy based on a fetish. Other than to say that is clearly absurd, it is not a topic discussed on this board.

[hntnhole]

5 hours ago, ErosWired said:

I’ve written quite a lot above, and I apologize to forum readers for my wordiness.

Speaking only for myself (but I suspect quite a number of others), my regrets that I cannot accept your apology.  I find your entries thoughtful, always considerate, and shared with a wealth of real knowledge of what you're addressing.  If we can read Tolstoy without an apology, we can definitely read yours.  Please continue to share your thoughts with the rest of us - after all, if a guy doesn't want to read them, he doesn't have to.  

[BootmanLA]

11 hours ago, ErosWired said:

In terms of (A), the FDA has determined that PrEP is safe and effective used as directed, but there are health effects. The health effects of an HIV infection are the same plus a suitcase full of hell. So no matter how you look at it, (A) is a very high-stakes roll of the dice for a relatively small return if you win.

Moreover: PrEP uses a two-drug pill that only contains two of the three (or more) components typically found in ART treatments. Both compounds in Descovy and Truvada (and the generic equivalent of the latter) are nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors - NRTIs - which prevent HIV from taking hold in the patient's system. Three-compound ART therapy usually involves an additional class of medication besides these two. For instance, the relatively new (~3 yrs or so) Biktarvy combines the two drugs in Descovy with a separate drug in the integrase transfer inhibitor class.

That's important because ART may thus be even more harmful to the body than PrEP over the long haul. In fact, that's one of the reasons research continues on these treatments - to fine-tune the combinations so as to cause the least harm possible to the ART patient. So if someone is concerned about the health effects of PrEP on an otherwise healthy body, he should be at least as concerned, and probably more so, about the effects of what is (effectively) PrEP PLUS another compound working jointly on a body that is already infected.