If you weren't convinced before ...

[hntnhole]

2 hours ago, DallasPozzible said:

they are horribly corrupt

Agreed.  Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot - maybe most of them take a little shovelful of dough on the side.  

[BootmanLA]

7 hours ago, norefusal said:

crazy is subjective but in recent years i'd nominate Kisten Sienna and Joe Manchin as having bought tickets to board the crazy train. All these years later im still not over the craziness of admitted serial adulterer Bill Clinton signing something called "the defense of marriage act" but politics are rarely sane so... life goes on i guess 

Sinema is no longer a Democrat and has not been since December of last year. That said, she still caucuses with the Democrats, so we can evaluate her as one, I suppose.

Neither she nor Manchin is "crazy". Both are more conservative than the average Democrat, but that's not a sign of craziness. Both are beholden to their donors (Sinema to the Wall Street crowd, Manchin to the fossil fuel industry) and both vote accordingly, but again, that's not crazy the way calling for a repeal of the entire welfare state is, on the GOP side, or calling for withdrawing from NATO, or repealing the income tax, or any number of other nutty ideas from that side of the aisle.

5 hours ago, norefusal said:

not really buyin it. derailing your boss's entire business plan to tenuously hang on to your mid- management job a bit longer isnt wise or "same" and the two open appear to bath in all the fake drama and attention they create by acting against conventional wisdom. Plus they are both almost insanely pro corporate max profit w no care for how abusive their policies are to average people. they don't care about the majority or the health of the planet but act in a way that is beneficial to themselves in the short term. the both have very obvious personality disorders but perhaps u have a different definition of "crazy" 

First, the President is not the "boss" of any US Senator. You seem to not understand some basic concepts of how our government works. It's true that President Biden is the highest-level elected Democrat in the country, but to call the tier right below him, in terms of elected officials, "mid-management" is just stupid.

This is not to defend either's voting record. It's true that each has been responsible for tanking some of Biden's more ambitious policy goals by refusing to back them in the Senate. But then the people of West Virginia are, by a significant majority, far more conservative than those of California or Delaware, and Manchin represents their views pretty well. Sinema, too, is from a state that is trending blue but historically has been GOP dominated, so she's not far off base from her constituents' views, either.

We tend to think of politics in national terms, because that's how it's portrayed, often, in the media; but in reality, a lot of it is local, and what will sell in one place won't in another. And in particular, senators (who represent entire states) often have legitimate local concerns, on behalf of their states, with a federal policy. I am as disappointed as anyone that Manchin and Sinema don't always support the Democratic position on legislation, but that's how our system works. 

[ErosWired]

5 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Neither she nor Manchin is "crazy". Both are more conservative than the average Democrat, but that's not a sign of craziness. Both are beholden to their donors (Sinema to the Wall Street crowd, Manchin to the fossil fuel industry) and both vote accordingly, but again, that's not crazy

And again, it depends on how you define ‘crazy’. Mr. Manchin’s tireless efforts to aid the fossil fuel industry in continuing to turn the planet into an oven, in spite of the alarming warning signs of planetary distress showing up left, right and center, fits my definition of lunatic very well.

[hntnhole]

10 hours ago, ErosWired said:

And again, it depends on how you define ‘crazy’

The urge to reflect one's accomplishments by owning spectacular, expensive vehicles is commonplace in Washington DC.  Manchin is the last thing from "crazy" - after all, enormous cabin cruisers, upon which he often entertains other members of Congress with quiet (yet apparently always well-attended) extravagant  parties, and his Maserati Levante parked on the dock just below) don't buy themselves, do they?  

 He's not crazy, he's an effective Congressperson that places his constituents interests above all but the most pressing national interests.  He's a Democrat not by dint of his political beliefs, he's a Democrat because he can play both sides of the aisle effectively.  

footnote: Some time ago in a previous thread, I think I wrongly credited Dan Rostenkowski, powerful chairman of Was & Means, with coining the phrase "all politics is local".  It was, in fact, Tip O'Neill.  My apologies. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by hntnhole
correction

[backdoorjimmy]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:00 PM, hntnhole said:

Sinema seems to have at least semi-cogent answers to why she votes the way she does, which doesn't make her crazy.  What does make her somewhat questionable though, is her taste in clothing.  Maybe one of her commercial sponsors is Ringling Bros/Barnum & Bailey ..... 

Her clothes are.... something.

On the craziness of the republicans, though, I read somewhere that the insanity began because Bill Clinton moved the Overton window to the right while he was president. Then Obama moved it some more, and now the democrats exist in the same political box that the republicans occupied in for decades. That left the republicans with nowhere to go but further to the right. Then they fell off the cliff into insanity.

I don't know how true that is, but I thought it was a fascinating hypothesis.

Edited October 6, 2023 by backdoorjimmy
Screwed up a sentence with an extra word that didn't make sense

[ErosWired]

7 hours ago, hntnhole said:

The urge to reflect one's accomplishments by owning spectacular, expensive vehicles is commonplace in Washington DC.  Manchin is the last thing from "crazy" - after all, enormous cabin cruisers, upon which he often entertains other members of Congress with quiet (yet apparently always well-attended) extravagant  parties, and his Maserati Levante parked on the dock just below) don't buy themselves, do they?  

Nothing in this statement makes him any less crazy for working to overheat the planet; it only explains that he does it for the worst reasons: Avarice, pride, greed, selfishness. Reflect his ‘accomplishments’? His ‘accomplishments’ are done for the benefit of short-sighted people who will eagerly turn the earth into a future hellscape for a fistful of dollars today … which is crazy.

Mr. Manchin represents people from Appalachia. I’ve lived in Appalachia all my life. He’s the same record we’ve heard over and over again, whether it’s West Virginia, central Kentucky, or East Tennessee - manipulate the people of the hills, using their poverty and fear, to make them vote against their own interest in the service of outside forces who want to capitalize at their expense.

I don’t think he’s a Democrat or a Republican. I think he’s just a political mercenary. But then, that goes for most of the sons of bitches (and bitches - looking at you, MTG and LB) up there.

You don’t think he’s crazy because you see him as shrewd and successful at manipulating people, because he’s got a fancy car and lives life large - which is everybody’s definition of doing it right, yes?

No. Not everybody’s. I see a man willing to throw his own people under the bus and then drive the bus himself to do the bidding of those who bought and paid for him. I see a man willing to sell the future for the moment, and I think a man willing to do all that is not right in his mind.

[hntnhole]

15 hours ago, ErosWired said:

Nothing in this statement makes him any less crazy

I don't disagree with one word you've written, with the possible exception of the definition of "crazy".  If the definition is "mentally deranged; demented; insane." (Merriam Webster), I don't believe he fit's that.  I definitely believe he's focused solely on his own ass, and to keep that focus razor-sharp, he ignores any other issue, and certainly the "Greater Good".

He's simply one of the most craven vermin in Congress, and I'll lay you 10-1 that he's got gold in his pocket from Egypt too.  He's nothing but a self-serving, soft-spoken excuse of a greed-encrusted man, pulling every ounce of wool over his electorate's eyes - so it's no wonder he's been in office these past years.  

To our collective sorrow, he's just one of many in Congress.  There's a handful that aren't outright thieves, but that's weak praise indeed. 

(btw - I think the attack on what gets taught in pubic schools is just another attempt at keeping the eventual citizenry stupid)  Even if we don't admire the current President for everything he says/does, he's only got a Corvette - not a Maserati.  Not that Corvettes are cheap - I had an L-88 for a while (until the other half insisted I peddle it, afraid I'd croak myself and probably others in the bargain).  

[hntnhole]

18 hours ago, backdoorjimmy said:

That left the republicans with nowhere to go but further to the right.

Thanks for that interesting response, backdoorjimmy. 

I think the R's dash to the "right" is due to something else, that being a sense of loss over their perceived threat to their assumed position on top of the cultural pyramid.  I know there is a smidge of presence in the Republican Party of non-Caucasians, but given the advancement in very recent years of equal rights for all, Mr. Big-Mac-Ass gave these folks that take an inordinate amount of pride in what they consider their birthright:  namely, to be on top of the social pile without having earned any respect beyond being born.  

I have no argument against the Overton Window you reference; inclusiveness is the goal, which means the position of that window is relatively fluid.  I would define social progress as life get better for all citizens (including the most recent, citizens-to-be), not merely those who inherited an assumed dominance by accident of their birth.  To me, that is the very definition of moral turpitude.  

If Mr. Jordan does become the next Speaker of the House, we're in for a helluva ride.  Kevinette was/is a reed in the wind, but Jordan is a dedicated believer.  I just hope he get's "outed" (per a different recent thread) as a result of an investigation into his "wrestling" history.  Even that might not be enough though, in today's Republikanische Partei.  

 

[ErosWired]

2 hours ago, hntnhole said:

Even if we don't admire the current President for everything he says/does, he's only got a Corvette

Eh, around here, ‘Corvette’ sounds kind of pedestrian. The Corvette Plant is half an hour’s drive from my house. I think a car sounds less impressive when they build it in your backyard. I wonder if it’s the same way where they build Maseratis.

[DallasPozzible]

On 10/6/2023 at 4:21 PM, backdoorjimmy said:

I read somewhere that the insanity began because Bill Clinton moved the Overton window to the right while he was president. Then Obama moved it some more, and now the democrats exist in the same political box that the republicans occupied in for decades. That left the republicans with nowhere to go but further to the right. Then they fell off the cliff into insanity.

I would like to read the entire analysis of how Clinton and Obama moved the Overton window to the right because it doesn’t sound plausible in the least. Moral Majority,  Reagan, Gingrich/Contract with America, BushJr., and Trump were all dramatic pulls to the right.

[hntnhole]

5 hours ago, ErosWired said:

‘Corvette’ sounds kind of pedestrian

LOL .... well, these days they're not what they once were.  You can still buy a Corvette with respectable "street-cred", but it sure ain't an L-88.  Actually, Chevy built them for the racing community (I mean legitimate/professional racing), and discouraged dealers from even offering a walk-in customer from buying one.  

That said, any Corvette is special, considering the rolling grocery carts clotting up the streets these days. But then I've never lived near their (holy ground) birthplaces either.  

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, hntnhole said:

LOL .... well, these days they're not what they once were.  You can still buy a Corvette with respectable "street-cred", but it sure ain't an L-88.  Actually, Chevy built them for the racing community (I mean legitimate/professional racing), and discouraged dealers from even offering a walk-in customer from buying one.  

That said, any Corvette is special, considering the rolling grocery carts clotting up the streets these days. But then I've never lived near their (holy ground) birthplaces either.  

It’s not that they don’t take them seriously here. It’s not birthplaces, it’s birthplace - they’re only manufactured in Bowling Green, KY. When you drive to Bowling Green, to the second exit on I-65, the Corvette Plant is right off the highway in all its glory, and just across the way is the National Corvette Museum. Every so often long streams of corvettes come riding through the area as owners make pilgrimages, like visiting Corvette Mecca. But most of them are people who come from other places.

Also local is Mammoth Cave National Park, home of the world’s longest known cave system, once called ‘The Monarch of Caves’. My grandparents often went to the park for picnics - and never once visited the cave. Somehow people just don’t see what’s right next to them as being as valuable. Familiarity breeds contempt. I suppose it’s the same reason some might get more excited at the thought of fucking a guy from out of town than someone local - even if he owns a Corvette.

[ErosWired]

5 hours ago, DallasPozzible said:

I would like to read the entire analysis of how Clinton and Obama moved the Overton window to the right because it doesn’t sound plausible in the least. Moral Majority,  Reagan, Gingrich/Contract with America, BushJr., and Trump were all dramatic pulls to the right.

So much of the toxicity in the nation’s political and social discourse can be laid at the feet of Newt Gingrich. That man has a shitload to answer for.

[hntnhole]

11 hours ago, ErosWired said:

they’re only manufactured in Bowling Green, KY

Wellll .... some L-88's were built in St. Louis - around 200, if I recall correctly.  Since the introduction of the Corvette in 1953, with a gutless straight 6 in it, it wasn't until a few years later that the first V-8 was available.  

That said, we better let go of this, before we get our knuckles rapped.  Of course, pm's are welcome if you'd like.  I don't think we'd get a demerit or whatever if we chat about cars in private messages.  Lots of guys that fuck other guys are also car-guys.  There's no limit to the innuendo available to cruise guys relating to cars. 

I remember going to Mammoth Cave as a kid on family vacation.  I don't remember much, other than how huge it was., but coming from the "flatlands" up north, it was fun to experience the mountainous vistas.  It's a most beautiful part of the country.  

[ErosWired]

10 hours ago, hntnhole said:

That said, we better let go of this, before we get our knuckles rapped.  Of course, pm's are welcome if you'd like.  I don't think we'd get a demerit or whatever if we chat about cars in private messages.

Don’t worry. No one is any danger of me waxing either technical or philosophical about automobiles. For some guys, cars are like Viagra. For me, they’re like watching a documentary on public transit. In French.

As to the ‘mountainous vistas’, I’m reminded of a fellow student in graduate school, who said she loved being in the mountains here. We had to break it to her gently that these were what were known as ‘hills’, ‘ridges’, and ‘knobs’, and she had not seen any mountains yet, and wouldn’t see any unless she went way east in the state. I guess geography is relative.

Edited October 9, 2023 by ErosWired