"Trump administration purges websites across federal health agencies"

[PozBearWI]

A lot of us have direct experience at how social norms influenced our teen life decisions and wish things had been different.  But while even our sexual orientation isn't an issue in metro areas; it is in rural areas in the US, even in 2025.  

A lot of input from multiple sources influence our self image.  I submit though that most of us don't fully understand the ramifications of how that has evolved in ourselves as we age.  

Now, I am not opposed to options being out there.  Just that making it "the standard of care" is likely to backfire.  

[BootmanLA]

I'm going to point out a few things here that may or may not have sunk in for all.

"Puberty Blockers" are temporary in their effects; people who stop taking them, say, in their late teens almost always promptly enter puberty, just delayed in starting. While the conditions are completely different, conceptually it's like taking any other medication to manage a physical condition, like insulin for diabetes; you stop taking the medication, the condition returns. 

So puberty blockers delay the onset of physical changes that may be much harder to reverse if those changes happen during the typical "puberty" period. And they allow the person time to consider whether they are truly transgender, and whether they want to continue gender-affirming care, as adults.

It's true that there are significant brain changes *during the typical puberty period*. We don't fully know, however, how much of those changes occur *because of puberty* and how much occur *at a time when puberty is typically happening*. Undoubtedly it's a mix of the two, but puberty blockers do not mean that the brain will remain forever in a pre-pubescent state. 

In fact, we know that many changes in the male brain happen long after puberty has essentially completed, so brain development is far from being a puberty-dependent change.

[PozBearWI]

Time will tell.  I really would like our legislators to stay out of everyones personal medical decisions.  And now of course with our health system being messed with by the traitor in chief and his goons, I'm not sure how viable it will remain.  We may need to look to other nations in a few years.

[Erik62]

2 hours ago, PozBearWI said:

Time will tell.  I really would like our legislators to stay out of everyones personal medical decisions.  And now of course with our health system being messed with by the traitor in chief and his goons, I'm not sure how viable it will remain.  We may need to look to other nations in a few years.

"legislators to stay out of everyones personal medical decisions". 

That is the question most in Need of definition. As ALL rules/laws that govern society whether Local, State or Federal, are determined by some level of government involvement. Legal ages of: drinking, driving, sex, marriage, students attending excursions, receiving religious education & ALLOWING use of puberty blockers & sex change operations are all managed by some form of government involvement. 

As children as young as 10 or 12yrs are looking for puberty blockers or FULL surgical interventions, without parental consent that is based on government legislation, should we also become so absent of government involvement that CHILDREN can choose to drink, drive, have sex etc & do whatever their immature brains decide is acceptable 🙄🤔??

[PozBearWI]

I want my medical decisions to be between me and my doctor.  Not some legislator without medical training.  

[Erik62]

10 hours ago, PozBearWI said:

I want my medical decisions to be between me and my doctor.  Not some legislator without medical training.  

Agreed👍 but, their has to be guidelines & these will inevitably come from some level of government, particularly where children are concerned eg: government will direct age of consent, compulsory education levels, drinking & driving.

  Unfortunately, these guidelines DO get abused by governments eg: banning of abortions under ALL circumstances, removing meals for schools, drug availability & access, removal of long term illegals & birthright citizenship.

  As for getting involved with SPECIFIC PERSONAL CHOICES of any description governments really should not be involved. 

    By the bye, I do enjoy our reparté on some very interesting topics. Of course, we will not always agree but, I think we have a great respect for each other. I certainly hope this continues. 

[BootmanLA]

On 2/20/2025 at 8:35 PM, Erik62 said:

"legislators to stay out of everyones personal medical decisions". 

That is the question most in Need of definition. As ALL rules/laws that govern society whether Local, State or Federal, are determined by some level of government involvement. Legal ages of: drinking, driving, sex, marriage, students attending excursions, receiving religious education & ALLOWING use of puberty blockers & sex change operations are all managed by some form of government involvement. 

As children as young as 10 or 12yrs are looking for puberty blockers or FULL surgical interventions, without parental consent that is based on government legislation, should we also become so absent of government involvement that CHILDREN can choose to drink, drive, have sex etc & do whatever their immature brains decide is acceptable 🙄🤔??

Frankly, that's bullshit.

There is no case in this country - NONE - of a child 10-12 years old getting full surgical intervention without parental consent. It's just not happening. It's damned near impossible for a doctor to prescribe ANY medication for a child without parental consent, much less something like puberty blockers. That's just right-wing bullshit lies that are being repeated over and over through the internet to convince gullible fools that the chirren are in DANGER! and we need to ACT! to protect them from BIG BAD TRANSGAY! who's trying to undermine all parental authority, etc.

I honestly thought most people on here could see through that crap.

[Erik62]

5 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Frankly, that's bullshit.

There is no case in this country - NONE - of a child 10-12 years old getting full surgical intervention without parental consent. It's just not happening. It's damned near impossible for a doctor to prescribe ANY medication for a child without parental consent, much less something like puberty blockers. That's just right-wing bullshit lies that are being repeated over and over through the internet to convince gullible fools that the chirren are in DANGER! and we need to ACT! to protect them from BIG BAD TRANSGAY! who's trying to undermine all parental authority, etc.

I honestly thought most people on here could see through that crap.

My statement was essentially questioning the direction that certain LEFT Wing groups wish to take many issues. I was using the hypothetical rather than any actual definitive occurrence, in questioning to what degree government is involved in personal medical interventions. This was in a discussion relevant to a statement made by PozBearWI. Hyberbole is used by both Left & Right wing groups & questioning is how we can get a more nuanced / balanced info base. 

  As a non-resident of the US, I try not to base my comments solely on info out of the US & I certainly don't take this info as gospel. I attempt to base opinion from worldwide sources eg: the UK & the Tavistock clinic fiasco & issues discussed openly within Australia & elsewhere. 

  My comments are, out of limited personal involvement with the trans community & issues, based on secondary reports & I appreciate any & all alternatives proffered. 

  I appreciate your passion, we have agreed on many issues but, I DID NOT SAY that gender transition WAS performed on 10-12 yr old children. I did say, "LOOKING FOR" based on  potential government legislation which HAS ALLOWED transgender issues (pronouns used) to be dealt with by schools WITHOUT parental consent (Internet search for video & individual letters written & school documents presented, for verification). 

[BootmanLA]

On 2/23/2025 at 8:57 PM, Erik62 said:

I appreciate your passion, we have agreed on many issues but, I DID NOT SAY that gender transition WAS performed on 10-12 yr old children. I did say, "LOOKING FOR" based on  potential government legislation which HAS ALLOWED transgender issues (pronouns used) to be dealt with by schools WITHOUT parental consent (Internet search for video & individual letters written & school documents presented, for verification). 

But there's an enormous gap between "this school lets students use their preferred pronouns without notifying the parents" and "10-12 year olds getting bottom surgery" (or whatever). And no one I know - not the most liberal of liberals, and I know some pretty far left people - are in favor of gender-confirming surgery on anyone who isn't - at a minimum - close to the age of majority; and none of them support such surgeries without parental consent.

Honestly, no one with any sense gives a fuck whether "Taylor" wants to be referred to as "he" or "she" in school. Pronouns are a sideshow - and dishonest people want to use the use of "pronoun identification" (My pronouns are he/him) as evidence that there's a huge movement read to cut little boys' dicks and balls off to turn them into girls, or to do breast removal on girls. 

[Erik62]

11 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

But there's an enormous gap between "this school lets students use their preferred pronouns without notifying the parents" and "10-12 year olds getting bottom surgery" (or whatever). And no one I know - not the most liberal of liberals, and I know some pretty far left people - are in favor of gender-confirming surgery on anyone who isn't - at a minimum - close to the age of majority; and none of them support such surgeries without parental consent.

Honestly, no one with any sense gives a fuck whether "Taylor" wants to be referred to as "he" or "she" in school. Pronouns are a sideshow - and dishonest people want to use the use of "pronoun identification" (My pronouns are he/him) as evidence that there's a huge movement read to cut little boys' dicks and balls off to turn them into girls, or to do breast removal on girls. 

Tavistock Clinic in UK was closed as a result of their ILLEGAL treatments offered to underage children. Their has also been articles, over the last couple of years, of adults in the US who have fully transitioned at ages well below the age of consent & ALL have had significant if not suicidal issues to deal with.  

[PozBearWI]

@Erik62 would you please cite your sources?

[Erik62]

2 hours ago, PozBearWI said:

@Erik62 would you please cite your sources?

They are too far back in my storage files (2023-24) to just bring them them up. Many of the articles relate to the Tavistock Institute (UK), others were given by individual interviews & statements (US, Germany, Aust). Most of these reports had extremely negative outcomes.

  I am very disinclined to make rash & unbased statements on an issue such as this. When an article is read & filed, it remains in the memory for later discussion. 

  However, as I am not writing a thesis on the STATEMENTS MADE BY NEGATIVELY IMPACTED TRANSITIONS, I am not spending hours going through thousands of files that may or may not, as yet, been stored under their permanent categories. 

Although I am not a Trumpists who listens to, believes & then quotes verbatim from his or any of his idiot mates library of half truths, it is undeniable that some very shady actions have been perpetrated in the treatments administered to "trans" children / teens on a worldwide level. 

*Australia uses 15yrs as a standard however under medical advisement 13 or younger maybe considered. 

* Bell v Tavistock - 2021 UK case regarding puberty blockers

* It’s true that not everyone who worked at GIDS was happy with what was unfolding: some mental health professionals were deeply concerned with the medicalisation of children. They believed these children required talking therapies, not irreversible hormonal and surgical interventions. But these staff were in a difficult position: they were under pressure from ‘powerful lobbies’ to opt for medication, as a report from 2005 revealed:

# Whether by use of drugs or surgery no irreversible change to mental or physical developement of a child should be encouraged - My ethical stance. 

 

[BootmanLA]

With respect, what happened at Tavistock in the UK has zero bearing on whether those surgeries are occurring in the United States, which (given that this topic is about Trump and health care) is the parameter at hand. Just because, say, certain African countries permit female genital mutilation doesn't mean that FGM is even occurring in the US, much less on a widespread basis. (I'm well aware it may be happening under the radar in some immigrant communities, but that's a far cry from the outrage over "they're letting this thing happen all over!" that we're seeing about trans surgery for minors.

I'll also note that even if I agreed with your categorical statement about "no irreversible change", puberty blockers - which accounts for about 99% of the pre-age-of-majority "intervention" in this country - is not in fact "irreversible". Simply stopping taking them allows puberty to progress.

[PozBearWI]

35 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

With respect, what happened at Tavistock in the UK has zero bearing on whether those surgeries are occurring in the United States, which (given that this topic is about Trump and health care) is the parameter at hand. Just because, say, certain African countries permit female genital mutilation doesn't mean that FGM is even occurring in the US, much less on a widespread basis. (I'm well aware it may be happening under the radar in some immigrant communities, but that's a far cry from the outrage over "they're letting this thing happen all over!" that we're seeing about trans surgery for minors.

I'll also note that even if I agreed with your categorical statement about "no irreversible change", puberty blockers - which accounts for about 99% of the pre-age-of-majority "intervention" in this country - is not in fact "irreversible". Simply stopping taking them allows puberty to progress.

Understanding of course that we don't have decades of data about going on puberty blockers at a young age and dropping them at mid life.  That said, I would be loathe to legislate against them.  That individual and their doctors, and with minors with the consent of their parents should be the only ones making that choice.  

 

[viking8x6]

2 hours ago, PozBearWI said:

Understanding of course that we don't have decades of data about going on puberty blockers at a young age and dropping them at mid life.

True. But just a clarification here: as far as I know, no one is proposing that anyone take them until mid-life, or anything close to it!

Young trans people are using them from just before the onset of puberty (say age 10-12) until they make a (hopefully final!) decision to transition, or not to do so (say age 16-18). If they don't transition, they just stop taking the blockers. If they do transition, they stop taking the blockers and start on gender-supportive hormone therapy.

We do have three decades of data on this use, up to a duration of about six years. We don't have it on longer-term use, but, per above, why would you want to?

TOTALLY agree with @PozBearWI that it should be the individual's decision with support from their medical providers and family as appropriate.