FreakedOut

On 8/13/2021 at 1:11 PM, BareLover666 said:

 

Totally agree @canail.

 

Like I said earlier: Rationally and objectively you did the best thing you could do @FreakedOut.
And you are not - nor will you be - the last man to do something they regret after getting drunk or having taken some kind of drugs. Boys will be boys... So welcome to the human race my friend.

Actually I didn't read anything anxious in how you reacted nor in your actions. In fact you took responsibility for your own actions. Sounds more like you're growing up into an adult than anything else.

Perhaps that hardcore old-school Freudian therapist of yours is helping you, and you don't even realise it yourself.
And if not you're doing it all on your own. Perhaps you could tell him how disappointed you are in him or her, and why, though.
And if you're feeling uneasy about talking about your childhood to that therapist, perhaps that is exactly what you should be doing. 

I deeply feel in the US especially but with us in Europe more and more as well, we tend to look for answers to life questions in pills. Personally I do not believe in quick fixes.
And if anyone suggests medication, that person should be a doctor of medicine, after you tell him or her your symptoms and in what situation you experienced them, in person and in the context of a medica consultation.

This is NOT a medical website and any suggestions about anti-anxiety medications e.g. should be taken with a truckload of salt.
And actually in a lot of situations some amount of negative feelings like depression or anxiety are normal and a part of life.

 

Only if you experience them for no apparent logical reason it might be a medical condition, or should be investigated further.

 

Perhaps what you are being confronted with @FreakedOut is that in this world nobody - not your brother, not your therapist and not society as a whole - is interested in who you have sex with. None of them gives a rat's ass behind (sorry @drscorpio, please don't ban me from posting and messaging again... 😈) about you being afraid of getting HIV because for whatever reason you schose to start barebacking.

So what you could do is:
- Being bisexual not fuck with dudes. Or chose to not fuck at all;
- Use condoms when you do. These give a good protection against HIV, and a decent (but not 100 % by a long shot) protection against other STD's;
- Use PrEP as an extra (and almost full-proof) protection against HIV. Be it it will not protect you from other STD's at all.

Some people only have sex with one person and if you are absolutely sure about that one monogamous sexual partner will not have sex with anyone else, you will be safe. But you can never be certain of that fact and that would place your own responsibly for you own health on your partner. And it's yours, not theirs.

And furthermore you've already come to your own conclusion that you don't want to use drugs around dating.
As when people are drunk they also 'forget' to use condoms, you might want to realise that you should not drink alcohol then either. Actually alcohol - in a medical viewpoint - is considered one of the toughest hard-drugs as well, ranking right up there somewhere around cocaine.

 

Personally I don't believe ANYONE (no man or woman nor whatever gender-identity one feels happy with) in this whole wide world succeeds in doing these things all of the time.... But I wish you luck.

Perhaps you will be the first 'man on Mars' so to speak.

On a personal note I'm fucking jealous of you living in Germany, like gay and bisexual men living in the UK, the US and Belgium, because where you live (as far as I know) PrEP is covered by the medical plans/insurance.

So you should be safe against acquiring HIV (which can progress to AIDS) and it doesn't cost you one dime.

 

So @FreakedOut knowing all of this, have you any idea why you where so terribly afraid about getting HIV?

It's manageable these days, and in Germany like the rest of Europe the medication will be paid for. So you will not get AIDS if you find out and get the medical help that is available to you.

 

Sorry if I ranted a bit.

Hi, sorry if I can't reply to everyone, this site limits how many posts new members can write.

You're mostly right, @BareLover666. When I began taking PrEP i was proud of my decision and my determination to strictly adhere to regimen to prevent catching a disease that had paralyzed me for most of my sexual life - and mostly alienated me from my bisexual side and even haunted me while being with women. For the first time I felt I wasn't required to control condoms for integrity every 30 seconds, that I could definitely forget any risk whatsoever coming from giving oral. It was the definitive extra layer of protection. And as I said before, this revolutionary calming effect lasted for quite some time. Until I made the mistake of stepping out of my comfort zone and not investigating more on the status of a total stranger without having strong reasons to believe he might be negative (actually I had strong signs of physical decay and coinfection that indicated the contrary, and later confirmed with a test). All this terrorized me afterwards. But as you say, it won't be the last time I regret doing something under the influence. I just hope next time I do less potentially harmlful things like running a red light on a deserted street or verbally abusing someone.

Oh, I will tell the a**hole of therapist I have how dissapointed I am in him. Now I have the strenght, I will. To me, he is as negligent and incompetent as a witch doctor offering the cure for HIV (actually, I've seen this on facebook). Session after session he contemplated impassively how I progressed to a state of total alienation, neglect of my duties and physical care, malnutrition, paranoia and helplessness. I never suffered so much emotionally as the last one and a half monts. I breathed but I was dead inside. And he, who was hired to help me improve my mental health, just watched the storm pass by from his armchair. I might even sue him for negligence. He's a public danger and should be removed from the practice of therapy.

And this has no relation to him asking me about my childhood. I am 100% open and frank with my therapists and happy to discuss whatever they think is relevant. I have long experience as patient in psychoanalitical therapy - talking about anything with them - including childhood traumas, sexual life, drug use or whatever sensitive area you could imagine. My grievance with him is that he did not react when he saw me going through a life-threatening crisis.

I strongly distrust any medication will help me significantly improve my mental health. I am aware this is the normal approach in the US, they just stuff you with antidepressants, sedatives and anxiety medication. This solves nothing - altough a good old benzodiazepine would've possibly helped me get a grip on myself during the worst days of this last crisis.  But don't worry. I would never follow the medical advice I find on this - or any - site.

@BareLover666, about your assertion that "... nobody [...] is interested in who you have sex with. None of them gives a rat's ass behind [...] about you being afraid of getting HIV because for whatever reason you schose to start barebacking." you are quite misguided.

Barebacking doesn't need to be risky anymore. Not since there is PrEP and U=U. You are surely informed that PrEP's rate of efficacy is well over that of condoms, and that undetectable poz folks on effective ART do not transmit. I never consented to risk for HIV, and I never will.

About your suggestions for the future. I will go on daily PrEP, possibly forever. I will not give up dudes. Maybe random ones on hook up apps, but who knows. Yes, I will go back to using more condoms with some of them. And I will try to get immunized against HepA-B and HPV, if possible.  After some more mindful selection, I will continue on the pleasures of barebacking. And no heavy drugs (= nothing above the occasional joint). I barely drink any alcohol.

Of course I do not trust on the faithfulness of a "monogamous" partner. I was once one of those and cheated very often (albeit always with condoms).

Why jelous of Germany? Isn't the dutch health system good? I would have believed so ...

I do not want to go too much into details as to why I am so afraid of catching HIV. I am happy that at present times there is treatment and it is as you say "manageable". But it is no pic-nic either. I know on this site there are tons of guys that trivialize catching it, making it even seem fun, or hot. I know for a fact it is not. And have read posts of poz people attesting to this. If you have any of such phantasies, please keep them to yourself. I am participating in an area (PrEP) which assumes parties have no intention of catching this chronic and life-threatening condition. I have already enough worries with all the rest of possible diseases.

About my brother's reaction to my coming out: he was absolutely neutral. Like he didn't give a d_mn. It was the best for me. He even told me he had experience in sex with other men, but was not his thing really.

Drugs I used: I mentioned weed. I snorted some cocaine too that one time. Mostly by pressure of this guy. Won't happen again. I don't even enjoy it.

The sex was great at that moment (before the onset of regret and fear). Well, at least I have that. But I hate so much this guy for misrepresenting his status and myself for my overconfidence that I rather forget it all.

@Bruce999 PrEP is NOT a condom. A condom is a physical barrier, invented centuries ago, to keep the sperm away. PrEP is a wonder of biochemisty, engineered to microscopically trick the HIV virus into trying to replicate using faulty building blocks (and that's as far as my layman's explanation can go). In terms of efficacy, it is way better than a condom and we can only hope it gets better with time - for example with injectable PrEP every other month (no more having to remember taking a daily pill).

@ErosWiredthanks for the advice. I know CBT and although I am not a very big fan of its limited approach to the human psyche, I must say that it would have worked far better than my present therapy. I used to do EMDR whith my previous - and now retired - therapist. It addresses areas CBT is not equipped to reach (the unconscious).

There are several estimations of risk per incident, and those you have given seem a bit optimistic. Take a look at the CDC's risk estimator for more up-to date numbers. But as we discussed already, there is a limit to what rational processing of information can do to help with anxiety. I knew for a fact risk was low - possibly close to nill. But the skinny purple frightened guy (did you watch Pixar's "Inside Out"?) wouldn't get the message.

Thanks for reading and for caring,

6 minutes ago, canail said:

I meant after the fact,  seeking medical aide etc.  The actual event is something I purposefully was not addressing in any form.

Oh sure, I am a disciplined health-anxious. Doc says jump, I jump. And I had a previous HIV scare to learn from, where I had received PEP barely before the 72 hours limit, which had my German doctor nervously swinging his head with resignation.

1 hour ago, canail said:

I am not going to address the behavior, risks, drug regimen, effectiveness of it or what sexual actions you may wish to consider in the future.  None of my thoughts on these things are relevant to your situation, nor do I have any special crystal ball to be able to adequately comment.

What I do wish to address is the Anxiety.  First and foremost  anxiety is not always or even often rational, expecting it to be rational is not going to help.  Second it sounds like you reacted in a very rational manner and have done what the medical professionals you chose instructed/recommended/prescribed in order to minimize the risks of the encounter.    What more do you feel you could have or should have done?  I have had some treatment for anxiety in a situation that I found extremely difficult to deal with.  I sought help from a Doctor and had a short term anti-anxiety med prescribed that I absolutely hated.  It was in fact worse than the anxiety,  it made me just not care about anything.  I should add I rarely respond ideally to drugs.  after discussing the situation with the doctor again he suggested an antihistamine as they can reduce anxiety.  This was a good answer for me,  it simply took the edge off,  and allowed me to accept that the outcome was not within my control, and that what I was dreading was either going to happen,  or not going to happen,  and remain calm, or perhaps calmer about the situation. 

Perhaps in the future (as I see this was posted some time ago,)  if you are feeling unable to cope with anxiety,  you should discuss it with your doctor?  It may not change what is causing you the anxiety, but if you can cope better with it perhaps you will then be able to deal better with the situation causing the anxiety.   example,  Perhaps if you had help controlling the anxiety you could have done more or better research to reassure yourself of the effectiveness of the course of treatments that had been prescribed and have been easier in your mind with the risk involved?  

Good luck in the future dealing with the anxiety.

Quote

Second it sounds like you reacted in a very rational manner and have done what the medical professionals you chose instructed/recommended/prescribed in order to minimize the risks of the encounter.    What more do you feel you could have or should have done? 

Well, yes and no. One of my big regrets of that night is having been so wasted by recreational drugs intake (nothing injectable, thank heavens). That clouded my judgment and made me err on the side of risk. Luckily, PrEP was already in my system for a long time then, and I didn't even forget to take it when I came home. So first thing I could have done: not fuck on drugs. I really didn'tneed them, but this guy was so much into it I had a hard time saying no (who was I to judge, I was smoking weed when I met him)

I took antidepressants for a long time, and they did not help much. Anxiety medication, like you said, at best numbs you. But no pill is going to do the work for you.

As I think I said before, I am in a kind of psychological therapy. It's old-school hard core Freudian and not helping much. We have had maybe 12 sessions already. In my first one I forecasted that although I seemed calm, I could at any moment fall prey of health anxiety. He wasn't paying attention. Then lighting struck and this problem arised. I BEGGED him to leave Freud aside and do some counseling to help me cope, but no, the guy stuck to his guns and kept theorising about my childhood. And then he metioned we needed to request something to the insurance. I was enraged at his negligence. I will most definitly fire him and look for a more "hands-on" kind of therapy.

If anything, this process has educated me on HIV prevention and I also came out as bisexual to my brother. My father may come next. It was painful and I hope this didn't need to happen. We will see. Thanks for your kind words.

To give this thread some closure: I tested negative today. PrEP works. But I need to do something about the anxiety. Either I further adjust on the risk (apparently 0.37% chance of infection was too much for me) or I better calibrate my perception of reality. Not fucking on drugs will probably help.

Being bred is so hot. Getting HIV is not. I'll look for a better balance.

5 minutes ago, Kinkybreed said:

First of all: I understand where you are coming from and trust me when I say that I also found myself in similar situations and was extremely anxious then. However, having sex shouldn't cause anxiety, it should cause an orgasm and happy feelings. You are taking prep AND are using condoms most of the time so you are literally doing everything in your power to be as safe as possible. Of course drugs make you more uninhibited and will most certainly cloud your judgement. Cause when you are high, these happy feelings are the main focus. Is it smart? No. Do you take drugs to continue being smart? Definitely not. Most of the time it's about losing inhibitions. Please don't be so hard on yourself. Whatever happened, happened. And while it might stresses you out, you can not change it and still you did everything in your power to protect your health. Although I really want to see that doctor who prescribed you PEP even though you've been on Prep for two years. That really causes stress for your body. I'm not a doctor but I'm almost certain that you should definitely not take both at the same time (hell, it even says on the bottle that you shouldn't take more than 7 pills of Prep in a week). Also: HIV is not that easily transmittable AND being on daily Prep protects you almost 100%. Multiple studies showed that. So taking PEP on top of that seems highly unnecessary and actually more damaging. While I can still understand your anxious reaction, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. It's all going to be fine. Don't let fear ruin your sexual self. Rather embrace it. It's also never healthy to keep things bottled up. 

Thank you very much for your message (or should I say Dankeschön, since I'm in Germany too). Just to clarify: I did not use condoms this last time. And the added PEP were 2 Issentress pills ADDED to the PrEP i was already taking. I didn't double up on the PrEP. I took - and still take - 7 a week.

I keep obssesively looking back into what I did and finding additional reasons to worry. But I am trying to let go and trust my initial decision that I should trust PrEP to keep me safe. I have an anxious condition that sometimes goes away with talking and exchanging ideas.

My therapist said today I should come out to my father. Too much old-school Freudian repression there.

Hey, again, thank you very much for your support, mein Freund. I envy your attitude towards life and hope I can soon be at that point too.

(two messages to go for today, apparently. This one was really worth it 🙂 )

@Alphpig  : I do not intend to convert. The question here is if PrEP counts as "unsafe", which probably many would say it is not.

@verslut: thanks for your answer.

To anyone: does breeding have to be risky? I know some people here get off on risk, but that is not what appeals to me about breeding or "natural sex". That is the reason I have never done it before PrEP.

In general, yes I regret having taken drugs. They fuck up my judgement. Luckily, going on PrEP was a decision taken months before I even tried any drugs and the drugs did not prevent me from taking it further.

@BareLover666:   I tried to reply yesterday but I was out of messages. Apparently there is a limit on new members. I thank you for the reassurance. As I said, many people view PrEP as the "new safe". I myself am caught a bit in the generational mindset change and cannot let go of the visuals of a guy  (later admitted HIV+) cumming condomless in my ass. That image fills me with guilt and anxiety. If I had been wearing a condom - supposedly less safe than PrEP - I do not know if I would be so anxious. Actually, I had sex before with HIV+ people with a condom. Btw, your public conversations about me (e.g., saying that I am in need of a well meant pat on the shoulder or cuddling) are also public to me 😉 Also, I think you asked me, I am on DAILY PrEP, not demand based, for the last two years.

@viking8x6: your message made me smile (something I was in dire need of). I also tried to answer, but due to message restrictions I could not.

@blackrobe: thanks for sharing your experience on PrEP. It helps. Why did you get a false positive?

@Close2MyBro: I am glad your scare turned out well. Thanks for the reassurance.

@Whiteguy1 thanks for your message.

7 minutes ago, blackrobe said:

Risk taking behavior can lead to scary outcomes. If you have been compliant on your PrEP regimen initially, the risk is vanishingly small. Adding PEP to PrEP in a timely fashion as you did makes the risk even smaller.

Take a few deep breaths and recognize you are catastrophizing needlessly. Be complaint with your meds and wait it out.

Thanks. I know I may be catastrophizing. I am 100% compliant of my regimen, and have finished the PEP course, which I started at 15 hours. As someone who is also on PrEP (so does your profile say, at least), have you tested its efficacy with guys you knew were HIV+?

It's the "waiting it out" that has me terribly anxious. But apparently, this is as fast as tests work, according to the Doc.

Thanks for your support, again.

4 minutes ago, Alphpig said:

Why would he have sex with other positive men? He’s having anxiety and you’re suggesting to go have more sex w poz guys. Literally the last thing he needs. What he needs is to stick to condoms and prep with neg men. 
 

And for the OP, this is a path you embarked on. You’re an adult. Making adult choices. Not sure how any of us on here can help you. Find meditation, prayer, counseling in your local area. Big coming to a place like this, is borderline absurd. 

And how exactly do I know someone is negative? This guy had "neg on prep" on his Grindr profile, to begin with. I do not find anything absurd in reaching out to people who might have similar experiences. Any well-intentioned comment is welcome.

22 minutes ago, cyberdolphnow said:

It's going to be OK. Your regimen will keep you safe. Get to bareback sex with positive men more. 

Thank you for your support.

Hi,
thank you for letting me post this here.
I am taking PrEP daily for the last two years. I started after having an instance of receptive anal sex where I blacked out because of alcohol + weed and not knowing if the guy had used a condom. This led to a month of PEP, after which I started PrEP.
I have been all my life terrified about the idea of contracting HIV and this had a huge impact on the sex I allowed myself to have. Particularly, condomless sex was completely out of the question.
After starting PrEP, I slowly reached the conclusion that I would still use condoms, except with a guy I know for some time and with an occasional hot guy I could bump into with whom, due to the great efficacy of PrEP, I would allow myself to live some breeding fantasies I always had.
This happened a month ago. I met this guy I thought was so hot, and getting laid was so easy. We did some drugs and I was very uninhibited. I didn't like some bumps and scars I saw on his face, but I thought that was prejudiced of me and disregarded the matter.
He fucked me bare. First, he came outside and I drank his cum. Then he came in my ass.
The next morning, I took my PrEP as always and went to sleep. But then I couldn't sleep thinking of what I had done and I began to feel anxious. I went to his apartment and asked him to take a rapid HIV test, which resulted positive. He said he didn't know, and obviously, he is not in treatment.
I freaked out.
I ran to the emergency room in the city hospital and asked them if I should do anything. There was no doctor present (Sunday) but a nurse connected me with a doctor on the phone. This doctor told me to start PEP. Since I was already taking PrEP, this meant for me to add two Isentress pills to my daily regimen.
I ended the 28-day course yesterday.
I am still panicking, especially because the doctor told me I cannot test with a NAT test until two weeks after ending PEP and with an antibodies-antigen test SIX WEEKS after ending PEP.
I can barely do anything productive these days.
Can anyone help me?
Thank you