Barebacking/HIV/Sexual Ethics

[GermanFucker]

Just a few off the top of my head:

1.) Don't lie. Period.

2.) Don't mislead. "Sorry, but you are to complicated for me" or "If status is important to you, there probably is a risk" is an ok way to avoid a direct answer. "Don't worry" isn't (that is, if it can realistically be assumed that the other person might be worried by an honest answer.).

3.) Don't assume. If the biggest slut of the city bends over in the local steam room, there isn't much room for interpretation. However, one should never assume that a guy who's clearly showing signs of being inexperienced (about gay sex / safer sex etc. in general), even if you run across him in an ABS, is looking for poz loads.

4.) Say what you mean and do as you say. If you don't want to pull out, don't promise to do so.

5.) Make sure you're talking about the same thing. Just because someone sometimes foregoes condoms doesn't necessarily mean he unterstands or subscribes to the "bareback lifestyle".

6.) Get tested regularly.

I think there are four categories of guys.

1. Neg, not barebacking

2. Those who claim to be neg but are giving/taking loads (probably poz but scared/refuse to get tested)

3. Those who are poz undetectable

4. Those who are poz with high viral load

Note that is virtually impossible to find a guy who will have raw sex with you and can actually prove he's neg. I say don't even bother to ask the guy which bucket he is in because he probably a) can't honestly tell you or won't be truthful about it if he thinks you are gonna reject him. The morality card gets played a lot if you fall into category 3 or 4 but I think more barebackers than we care to admit fall into category 2. Raise your hand if you have ever told a guy about a negative test result being relatively recent when you know your ass hasn't been near a clinic. ;-)

There is a problem with your logic. Let's take my country's numbers for example: There are about 1.5 million gay men in Germany, out of which 50.000 are poz. If you subtract all the happily married guys and successful safer sex practitioners, realistically one third will have unsafe sex. Some will fall under the "barebacker" category, but most won't generally fuck raw, but will if the circumstances are right:

- They're drunk

- They're freshly in love

- They're buddies with the other guys

- They're smitten by the hotness of the other guy

- They're bisexual and 200 miles from the next big city and have no clue about the bareback community

- and so on.

That means 450,000 out of 500,000 or nine out of ten guys who could possibly say yes to playing raw will be neg. I know the statistics are different in other countries, so let's be generous and say: It's only four out of five. Just because everyone could possibly be poz doesn't mean that the majority isn't neg. Assuming they're "probably poz but scared/refuse to get tested" can be used as a way to justify not giving a shit. In reality there's a fifth group, and it's the largest one:

5. Those who sometimes forget condoms, but don't necessarily call it barebacking. Some of them are poz. But the vast majority out of sheer dumb luck and because they don't do it that often are neg.

Your logic might work in West Hollywood, The Castro or Prenzlauer Berg. If you look at society as a whole, you have to realize that not all are hardened whores like us. You most likely will run across someone who falls into category five, the one where it really gets problematic. That's why - if we want to be ethical - we should just take that one second to think, to care.

Edited May 4, 2012 by GermanFucker

[GermanFucker]

If I'm HIV-, do I have the positive duty to explicitly ask a potential partner if he's positive or not? Or to disclose my own status, as far as I am aware of it?

From a purely legalistic standpoint: No. No need to warn someone if there's no risk.

From an ethical standpoint: Always disclose. If the other guy's poz, he should also know all the facts before he decides. If the other guy's neg, ideally a short explanation how often one gets tested and how often one barebacks would be great.

Do I have a positive duty to not bury my head in the sand, but to be tested regularly, so my information is up-to-date?

If you're honest and upfront about your sex life and not getting tested, no. If you say you get tested regularly or give the impression: Yes, you do.

If I'm HIV+, do I have the positive duty to volunteer my status without being prompted?

No. Everyone has the right to privacy. Never - IMHO - when practising safer sex. And if you meet the other guy lying in a sling at a bareback sex party, discussing status is moot, anyway. However if a smile across the aisle in a sporting goods store turns into a spontaneous fuck, you do have the ethical duty to care and discuss the whole status and / or safe / unsafe sex thing. Whether you do it openly or delicately is up to you.

And do I have the duty to take proper care of my health, including taking steps to reduce my viral load to undetectable levels before barebacking?

No. As long as you're honest about it. It is your choice if and when to go on meds. But if for whatever reason you don't want to, you shouldn't get pissed when asked about it or getting turned down because of it. You've got to be able to live with your choice. No lying, no misleading.

And should serosorting be considered a right (that someone who's HIV+ may or may not choose to exercise depending on personal morals) or an obligation (regardless of the expressed desires of the HIV- party)?

Everybody should have the right to decide whom to have sex with, however ludicrous the criteria might be. That includes racial preferences as well as serosorting. That also means that if a neg guy wants to have sex with a poz guy and both parties are informed and fine with it, it's nobody else's fucking business.

And for anyone considering engaging in gay sex, do I have the positive duty to inform myself about the risks before getting involved?

Everyone SHOULD. But we can't realistically assume that everyone is informed. Google isn't an answer to everything. Even on the internet you can find bullshit like Duesberg or right-wing Christian nonsense.

And in the context of the discussion, should we consider the impact to the broader community (for instance, insurance, whether private or public, does end up covering the costs of HIV treatment in almost all cases)?

We should realize that there is such a thing as a society and that the norms and the knowlegde of an urban gay community are not necessarily the same as everywhere else. Communities are in flux and we should greet newcomers to our's with respect and kindness.

As to health insurance: The long-term costs of HIV treatment are about the same as for morbid obesity and IMHO it should be treated much in the same way. Help and encouragement to do the "right thing" (e.g. to get tested) is ok, but blaming someone for getting HIV is counterproductive.

Or just limit consideration to the personal impact on those directly involved?

Not limit. But caring about the people you know is a good starting point.

[bbzh]

I know others disagree but I make a distinction between 1) casual anonymous sex and 2) dating/relationships.

If it's anonymous, there is no way in hell I am going to disclose that I am poz (unless he's poz) because he could use it against me. Any neg guy out there - who wants to stay neg -is out of his freaking mind if he thinks he is going to get a truthful, detailed answer about the exact date of his partner's last test and/or status. Your partner may not know (and there's nothing sinister about that). But if that helps you justify what you are doing, then knock yourself out.

If I am taking it slow and getting to know the guy, I will tell him everything at the appropriate time. If he leaves, then it wasn't meant to be.

I don't know whether the guy who pozzed me did it by accident or if it was intentional. But guess what? It doesn't change a damn thing. If I had known that dick was dirty, would I have taken it? No. But I fully accept the responsibility for the outcome because I knew the risks. I always say if you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, then what more can I ask of you?

But one thing I can say is that in a way, seroconverting was a huge relief. No more worrying. I lucked up and got one of the world's leading HIV doctors. He has told me a thing or two that have really allowed me to relax. He only asked that I get my viral load to zero before barebacking. And I must say it's really satisfying to take a guy's load without being terrified. I do feel sorry for the neg guys who want to take loads. If you're that chicken, then move the fuck out of the way. I'll take the load! I don't feel morally flawed or at all conflicted about not telling random guys my medical history. The one thing my doc said that I found amazing was that a neg top who wants to stay neg would be better off seeding my undetectable hole than having the condom break while he is fucking a guy who doesn't know his status. Stop for a minute and take that in. I doubt the condom nazis would ever accept that statement as truth. So to you neg tops out there, find and fuck the shit out of any undetectable hole in your area code. ;-)

On a serious note again, if you don't want to be poz, then don't bareback. It's really that simple.

Your health is your responsibility. And your business. No one else's unless he wants to put a ring on it.

Sorry to you neg barebackers out there, but on this particular issue, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[rubio2001]

I think that there is an exaggerated sense of victimization taking place in the gay community. You'd think that reading some of these posts (not just on this thread) that there are nothing but innocent gay guys out there getting 'tricked' into having unprotected sex. In my experience that is just not the case. I think there is this odd need within the gay community to somehow put the blame of the continued spread of HIV on anyone other than the individual who becomes positive. Let's face the facts. HIV and AIDS is nothing new. You would have to have had your head in the sand for the past couple of decades not to know the basics of how this virus is spread. For anyone out there engaging in bareback sex to expect anything other than the eventual contraction of HIV is absurd.

There are situations where there very well have been victims of this disease. Those men (and women) who have been raped, sex with minors, sex with people who did not consent because they were under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, etc., are true victims and they have all the right in the world to be outraged that they have been cursed by this horrible disease. The rest of the population though... give me a break.

But what about stealthing? Personally, I think it's a bunch of crap and definitely over-exaggerated. Yes there are many positive men who fuck who are positive and lie about it. However for every man who lied about his HIV status there is the guy he is fucking with who is lying to themselves about what in the hell they are risking by letting some guy fuck them bareback.

"I met this guy on the internet and he said he was negative! I just found out he was positive and I let him fuck me without a condom!" Really? That is the excuse you are going to come up with when your test results come back positive? Are you going to also conveniently forget about all the other tricks that fucked you bareback at the baths, guys you met online, guys who fucked you at the bookstore, at the park, etc.?

At the end of the day if you don't want this disease DON'T FUCK BAREBACK... period. If you are counting on staying negative based on other people's ethics or morals then you might as well just accept the fact that it's not if, but when, you are going to become positive.

[cam1972]

Any neg guy out there - who wants to stay neg -is out of his freaking mind if he thinks he is going to get a truthful, detailed answer about the exact date of his partner's last test and/or status.

He is not out of his freaking mind. He deserves that from any guy. No guy has a right to lie about his status if asked. It's wrong. Guys that deliberately converted should come to the realization that not everyone is like them. Some wish to remain neg. I, like you, did not ask for HIV. While my story is different from yours, you admit that had the guy told you, you wouldn't have taken his load. So the choice was removed from you. Yes, you chose to bareback. But that does not in any way take one bit of the blame away from the one who pozzed you. He should have told you.

On a serious note again, if you don't want to be poz, then don't bareback. It's really that simple.

Your health is your responsibility. And your business. No one else's unless he wants to put a ring on it.

Sorry to you neg barebackers out there, but on this particular issue, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I disagree again. Why shouldn't neg guys be allowed to bareback? It may be a pipe dream to think that everyone should be honest about their status, but it would be a better world if they did. And why should those with selfish ideas take away the pleasure and joy of bareback sex from HIV - gay men?

A huge issue I have with this argument is this: The gay community is always screaming for equality with the straight community. Straight people in relationships have sex without condoms ALL OF THE TIME. We know that's true since babies are born every minute of every day. So... If we say that gay people shouldn't, aren't we putting ourselves on a lower level than the heterosexual community? I'll answer that. Yes.

As far as someone's health being the individual's responsibility.. Yes it is... But I don't agree that it's his solely. If the other sexual partner knows he or she is poz, it's his/her duty to inform. We don't get a free pass just because someone doesn't ask. I know life isn't fair. I'm a current student of the University of Hard Knocks. But if we can at all help life be a little bit better for others, then why the hell shouldn't we? Nothing wrong with being kind to one another. The world would be a much better place if we all were.

[HungLatinDom]

The thing is: recently infected guys, the ones who test still negative on an antibody based test, have a VERY high viral load, as they still have no antibodies against the virus.

Unless you advocate for daily PCR testing, it is a pipedream to stay neg if you bareback outside a monogamous relationship.

I wish the world would work more like we want it to work, but that's not the way it is. As BBzh said, if he lies or not, or if he does not know, it does not change a thing. You are still poz at the end of the day. I do not understand why people want to think it is always the other people who are to blame. They, pure and innocent, played no part. Bullshit. And I got it playing safe as a top. A condom accident or fisting is what got me. I have several suspects of who pozzed me. And I have met a couple of them after the fact and kissed them and fucked them. It happened, and I deal with it. It is scary sometimes, but, I went and had sex with thousands of men, I had made my choice, I knew it. Tough luck for me.

I still fucked poz guys, when they told, that's what condoms were for me at the time. I used a condom all the time, I was a full top. Yet here I am.

We can discuss all that we want about what people should do, it's not gonna change them a bit. What we can change is our actions, and that is what can keep neg guys neg. Nothing else.

[thick]

both my online profiles state I am hiv positive. If a neg man hits on me I flat out remind them I am poz and I do not use rubbers. If they are still cool with all of that....then I will fuck them. I dont stealth. I believe in honesty. I dont go to baths or abs or sex clubs......not my scene

[layedback]

This is a sore subject for me. I believe that if you're poz, you have a responsibility to disclose your status every time you are about to bareback. .

Really? But don't you also recognize that if you're negative and want to stay that way, your health is your OWN responsibility? You should know that every time you have unprotected sex, you run the risk of contracting HIV. That is simply an undeniable fact, the same way that heterosexuals know that every time they have sex, there is a risk of pregnancy even if they're using birth control. I guess it's just the litigious nature of our society, but we truly have grown into a victimized culture where ridiculous laws have been created to protect people from their own stupidity.

This sort of thing really pisses me off, and I have a big old fat zero degree of sympathy for adults who act like naive kids and subsequently blame somebody else for their own problems. For example, we all know that smoking greatly increases the risk of lung cancer, it's printed right on the package, but many longterm smokers still get sick and then try to sue tobacco companies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you drink a fifth of vodka in 15 minutes and then get behind the wheel of a car, you risk having a fatal accident, yet some people will do just that and then blame Absolut for making the shit.

\Now, if you get raped, if the sexual act is nonconsensual, it's a different story. But if you willingly lie down with some guy and don't use protection, as far as I'm concerned, the burden of responsibility is yours and no one else's. Like my grandma always said, "play with fire, expect to get burned some day." The last time I was tested, I was negative. I bareback exclusively. Not because I'm just dying to be poz, but because I crave having a guy's hot load in my guts. I don't even bother to ask staus any more, and I don't expect a guy to tell me his status. We're grown men. We all know the score, and this ain't our first time at the rodeo. I've accepted the fact that one day I will seroconvert, and when it happens, it's gonna be nobody's fault but my own.

To answer MascMountainMan's question, stealthing is not cool with me. I personally wouldn't do it under any circumstances. I wouldn't lie about my staus either, because I'm not hung up on what others think of me. Since I'm not knowigly poz, I can't say whether or not I would volunteer the information before every fuck. I do agree that theoretically guys probably should always discuss status, but I disagree that they're automatically immoral if they don't. I definitely don't believe that not telling someone is automatically a sin of omission. I think it depends on the unique circumstances of the situation, but regardless, the bottom line is that people who want to stay negative shouldn't be barebacking.

Edited May 5, 2012 by layedback

[Male22192]

Really? But don't you also recognize that if you're negative and want to stay that way, your health is your OWN responsibility? You should know that every time you have unprotected sex, you run the risk of contracting HIV. That is simply an undeniable fact, the same way that heterosexuals know that every time they have sex, there is a risk of pregnancy even if they're using birth control. I guess it's just the litigious nature of our society, but we truly have grown into a victimized culture where ridiculous laws have been created to protect people from their own stupidity.

This sort of thing really pisses me off, and I have a big old fat zero degree of sympathy for adults who act like naive kids and subsequently blame somebody else for their own problems. For example, we all know that smoking greatly increases the risk of lung cancer, it's printed right on the package, but many longterm smokers still get sick and then try to sue tobacco companies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you drink a fifth of vodka in 15 minutes and then get behind the wheel of a car, you risk having a fatal accident, yet some people will do just that and then blame Absolut for making the shit.

\Now, if you get raped, if the sexual act is nonconsensual, it's a different story. But if you willingly lie down with some guy and don't use protection, as far as I'm concerned, the burden of responsibility is yours and no one else's. Like my grandma always said, "play with fire, expect to get burned some day." The last time I was tested, I was negative. I bareback exclusively. Not because I'm just dying to be poz, but because I crave having a guy's hot load in my guts. I don't even bother to ask staus any more, and I don't expect a guy to tell me his status. We're grown men. We all know the score, and this ain't our first time at the rodeo. I've accepted the fact that one day I will seroconvert, and when it happens, it's gonna be nobody's fault but my own.

To answer MascMountainMan's question, stealthing is not cool with me. I personally wouldn't do it under any circumstances. I wouldn't lie about my staus either, because I'm not hung up on what others think of me. Since I'm not knowigly poz, I can't say whether or not I would volunteer the information before every fuck. I do agree that theoretically guys probably should always discuss status, but I disagree that they're automatically immoral if they don't. I definitely don't believe that not telling someone is automatically a sin of omission. I think it depends on the unique circumstances of the situation, but regardless, the bottom line is that people who want to stay negative shouldn't be barebacking.

I agree and disagree all at the same time. I agree that a neg person shouldn't be barebacking if they want to stay neg. But at the same time, you have a younger generation where some of them don't even know what HIV is cause it wasn't a part of their culture growing up like it was for us. They don't necessarily know the risk going in. Or you have some guys that are bi (who mainly stay in hetro relationships) where HIV isn't a part of their thinking like it is with people in the gay community.

You pointed out something -- if you smoke, there is a warning on the pack of cigarettes. That's why I think a poz person should disclose status in almost most instances cause a person has a right to know what they are getting into. (someone who has their hole pressed up against a gloryhole or is spread eagle in a sling are exceptions where I think it is irrelvent).

[hungry_hole]

I know others disagree but I make a distinction between 1) casual anonymous sex and 2) dating/relationships.

I make the same distinction and in my opinion stealthing is OK in anonymous situations. Why? Because in anonymous situation we are cocks and holes and that's all it counts. Plus in anonymous situations there's the fantasies and fetishes in which lying could be part of the experience.

However, in a dating or relationship situation stealthing is a different story and then lying about status becomes an ethical issue for me.

I would recommend to HIV-neg guys who want to bareback and who want to remain neg to stay away from anonymous cocks and holes.

[very evil slut]

I am no fan of don't ask don't tell.I would go str8 and tell everything I have and would answer questions about testing,etc.I like my mind to be clear of such nonsense, so that I can concentrate and enjoy the sex.

[bbzh]

The last time I was tested, I was negative. I bareback exclusively. Not because I'm just dying to be poz, but because I crave having a guy's hot load in my guts. I don't even bother to ask staus any more, and I don't expect a guy to tell me his status. We're grown men. We all know the score, and this ain't our first time at the rodeo. I've accepted the fact that one day I will seroconvert, and when it happens, it's gonna be nobody's fault but my own.

Since I'm not knowigly poz, I can't say whether or not I would volunteer the information before every fuck. I do agree that theoretically guys probably should always discuss status, but I disagree that they're automatically immoral if they don't. I definitely don't believe that not telling someone is automatically a sin of omission. I think it depends on the unique circumstances of the situation, but regardless, the bottom line is that people who want to stay negative shouldn't be barebacking.

Layedback, I'm very impressed that as a neg guy, that you've given this some serious thought. If/when you seroconvert - and I hope you don't - you will understand even better the nuances of this issue. It goes well beyond what's legal and moral. As much as we'd like everybody to play the game according to our own rules, the truth is, people don't. Every morning when I swallow those four pills, I am reminded of that. To all neg barebackers, please get tested regularly.

[prrthead78]

I've read these posts with interest and it has made me think of another group not yet mentioned...

What about neg guys who lie and say they are poz? Is this a group we should consider and what percentage of guys might comprise it? Should we encourage this behavior or disown it?

On the one hand, it is clearly a lie and often times done intentionally to mislead someone and thereby seemingly unethical. However, I can also see how this could be an important last step for a chaser going forward. If they are able to own HIV by thinking of themselves as a "poz" man and be comfortable with that and what goes with it, then perhaps that would be the clearest sign for us and them that they really are ready for conversion. And if they really are owning this status and thinking of themselves in this way, would it really matter if they were still technically neg?

I guess the larger question is when we talk about chasers and guys who claim to really want it, is this something we should encourage them to do as a way of figuring out if they can handle being poz?

[cam1972]

The thing is: recently infected guys, the ones who test still negative on an antibody based test, have a VERY high viral load, as they still have no antibodies against the virus.

Unless you advocate for daily PCR testing, it is a pipedream to stay neg if you bareback outside a monogamous relationship.

I wish the world would work more like we want it to work, but that's not the way it is. As BBzh said, if he lies or not, or if he does not know, it does not change a thing. You are still poz at the end of the day. I do not understand why people want to think it is always the other people who are to blame. They, pure and innocent, played no part. Bullshit. And I got it playing safe as a top. A condom accident or fisting is what got me. I have several suspects of who pozzed me. And I have met a couple of them after the fact and kissed them and fucked them. It happened, and I deal with it. It is scary sometimes, but, I went and had sex with thousands of men, I had made my choice, I knew it. Tough luck for me.

I still fucked poz guys, when they told, that's what condoms were for me at the time. I used a condom all the time, I was a full top. Yet here I am.

We can discuss all that we want about what people should do, it's not gonna change them a bit. What we can change is our actions, and that is what can keep neg guys neg. Nothing else.

I should have stated more clearly a couple of things. That's my fault. 1) I was addressing the OP's title of this thread. Ethics. If you are poz and asked about your status and you lie about it, that is when the blame lies on the poz guy. 2) The neg does indeed have to accept part of the blame as well for converting in any case. but if he's been lied to, the blame is not his alone.

The thing I've failed to mention in any post I've made on this subject is this: I'm not into hook ups. I can count on one hand and not use all my fingers the times I've hooked up. Never been to a bath house. Never had group sex. So I know that I come at this from a different angle than most if not all on here. That said, addressing the ethical aspect the OP talks about, the poz have a duty to inform.

Edited May 5, 2012 by cam1972

[digger]

Excellent and thoughtful response by @germanfucker. I couldn't agree more.