Are Bottoms 'Less than Men'?

[einathens]

the topic is probably better suited for a thread of its own, but i don't know where the idea came from that a bottom is somehow less of a man than a top is. cultural conditioning? internalized homophobia? bad PR? anyway, i don't agree with the premise.

also, i turned down 2 more married men this week.

[Hotload84]

the topic is probably better suited for a thread of its own, but i don't know where the idea came from that a bottom is somehow less of a man than a top is. cultural conditioning? internalized homophobia? bad PR? anyway, i don't agree with the premise.

I agree, Einathens, so I've separated your posting from the discussion where you posted it.

I'll also add, that when I generally cringe when I read stories and/or postings that suggest (or clearly assert) a bottom is less of a man than a top, but I surmise some guys really get off on the argument, so generally I've left such postings alone (although I would still undertake normal editing - for egregious syntax, grammar, spelling and plot-line problems). I for one admire the skill level of a consummate bottom who can readily take the biggest and widest of cocks up his ass, and can't imagine why doing so makes him less of a man. Frankly, I wish I were better at bottoming!

[Pig Bottom]

Not at all. A lot goes into being a man. Sexual position doesn't have anything to do with it.

[very evil slut]

Yes, this assumption is wide-spread among straight people and sadly not all but many tops display such attitude as well. I absolutely HATE THIS CRAP! I am 100% all the time bottom and I will be a bitch,whore,slut,etc. but if someone starts acting like I am the 'little pussy in the corner' for real(outside sex-play), he gets a wake-up call immediately. Maybe I had only shitty tops, but this 'outside the bedroom' attitude made me quite aggressive & dominant with the time. Tops get irritated when someone 'tops' from the bottom or displays some resistance-but I have no problem with it and am having always a hell of a good time. This heterosex-import from the straight world, where the top is the man and calls the shots and the bottom is the 'girl/woman/wife' is a complete nonsense in our proud 'male-only' tribe.

[youngslut]

Absolutely not. Sexual preference has nothing to do with anything else in life.

It's easy to brag about this stuff in an anonymous online setting but stick with me for a second. I'm a go-getter in my career life, I put in work and I'm successful because of that. I came from not very much and now at 22 I make more money than any of the men who fuck me. Submissiveness is purely sexual to me, I would never let anyone control me in my professional life. I like having men take control of me in bed, but outside of that situation nobody would ever guess it or try to do it.

[versmetropig]

NO. Not in the least. And it annoys me when I come across guys who think so... and I'm talking other gay men here. Bad enough for the straight folks who don't know better, but really, among ourselves? Given my 'druthers I'd be 60/40 top to bottom, but reality skews me more toward being 90%top 10%bottom... but being on both the giving and receiving end, being a bottom - or bottoming - does not make one "less of a man" in fact sometimes I think it actually takes MORE guts (particularly when faced with a really large "weapon" on your partner). We are men who have sex with MEN... never could understand why a top would then want to make his bottom less manly - that's a power trip and a psychological issue, not sexual play. Sure I can do the B&D scene as a top with the best of them... but that's a SCENE and its play, and I want the guy to be as goddamn masculine as I can possibly get. Someone mentioned "internal homophobia" - you know what? That's possible. As someone who likes to play with men of all races and nationalities, I have noticed that men from cultures particularly known as "macho" type cultures, especially those who are first generation here in the USA or visiting, have more distinct lines on what's okay and what's not - and being a top means you are still a man, while being a bottom is perceived as, well, not. I've made it my goal to help as many men as possible realize they can be masculine and enjoy getting fucked... well, SOMEBODY has to do it, right?

[Whitebutt]

I think being a man has nothing to do with top or bottom. In fact I've been fucked and fucked well by some very effeminate men. My experience is that the best tops are those that have some experience bottoming. What you do in bed has nothing to do with you being a man. Just my 2 cents.

[rawTOP]

If you use the phrase 'less manly' instead of 'less of a man' (which is what the people who are saying that mean) then yes, bottoms do tend to be less manly. But it's a bit like women - there are some women that are more masculine than some men. But on average I'd say tops tend to be more manly, and bottoms less manly. But again, that depends on the individual. I've met masculine bottoms and presumably there are feminine tops out there too...

[einathens]

'manly/masculine' is, to me, a heterosexist cultural construct built on stereotype, and also entirely subjective and relative. ditto 'feminine.'

caling a male 'less manly' than another male is an insult that goes all the way back to the first schoolyard. when the bullies called you a sissy, did you take it as a compliment? probably not. it was meant to rob you of your self-esteem and power.

can't we stop using the language we share to hurt each other?

[drscorpio]

I've met masculine bottoms and presumably there are feminine tops out there too...

I dated a hairdresser years ago who was stereotypically fem and swishy UNTIL you got him naked in your bed. He had a thick 9" cock and could fuck like a champ.

One afternoon, he was fucking the shit out of me in my bedroom when there was a knock at the door. We chose to ignore it and continued our very hot session. Suddenly there was a knock at the window next to my bed and a yell from my mother! Now coincidentally this guy cut my mom's hair, so he knew her and recognized her voice. He went from power top fucking my ass to having a 10-second nelly attack in the middle of my bedroom in nothing flat.

[rawTOP]

'manly/masculine' is, to me, a heterosexist cultural construct built on stereotype, and also entirely subjective and relative. ditto 'feminine.'

caling a male 'less manly' than another male is an insult that goes all the way back to the first schoolyard. when the bullies called you a sissy, did you take it as a compliment? probably not. it was meant to rob you of your self-esteem and power.

can't we stop using the language we share to hurt each other?

It's only an insult if you value feminine less than masculine or if you think men shouldn't be feminine. I don't. Masculine/Feminine are meaningful descriptive words. And yes, masculine gets equated with manly because there's a hyper-masculinity men can achieve that women pretty much never achieve.

I don't have a problem with "less manly". Put me next to a steroid taking guido and I'm less manly, but I don't feel the need to be a caricature of a man. But while being less manly I can be more of a man than he is. If I'm harder working, smarter, more responsible, I can be more of a man - and none of those things have to do with being manly...

And I never got called a sissy. I was called 'gay', but in hindsight they were right...

[HirsuteSpunkHound]

LOL I'm mostly a bottom. Say 65% bottom/35% top fucking, but I think it's due to the medications that I've been taking for about 16 years now and maybe age that I can't get it up at a moment's notice. It could be my testosterone levels (I'll have to check into that.). Anyway, I like bottoming and there are various levels of bottoming & topping. If you ever fucked me, you would know that not all bottoms just lay there and want to be ravaged! I love to be ravaged, butt I'm definitely not going to lay there like a lounge lizard! I'm going to be fucking your cock with my ass muscles, so if the top gets tired, I can take over & continue the session until he gets his 2nd or 3rd wind. A good bottom can be in control of the sexual situation & a good partner, whether bottom/top/versatile, should be open-minded to appreciate that their partner can do that. Now, I've had my share of tops that hate my guts, since I was too tight for them to put it in. While there are some bottoms that just lay there, there are also some tops that think they can just shove their cocks up your butt with ease. Of course, you tops need to know where the hole is, first of all. I've had some "tops" that think they have their dick up my ass, when I could telling them my hole is lower. lol For God's sake, if you first don't succeed, put your finger in the hole and then put your cock head where your finger is. lol So everybody is different and you can't lump all bottoms into one category, while lumping all tops in the opposite category. For I might be a fucking bottom, most of the time, I'm a fisting top (I have major control issues.) & I've been fisting (off & on) since I was 23. Y'all have fun out there!

[bobbie]

Personally I don't relate to real swishy men! Well, not that I don't like them...but I like men who are masculine.

I never could figure out what guys see in drag queens...I don't like women for sex, so why would I be

attracted to men who look and act like women.

So I guess there ARE less manly and more manly men!!!

[Hotload84]

"'Manly/masculine' is, to me, a heterosexist cultural construct built on stereotype, and also entirely subjective and relative. Ditto 'feminine'. Calling a male 'less manly' than another male is an insult that goes all the way back to the first schoolyard. When the bullies called you a sissy, did you take it as a compliment? Probably not. It was meant to rob you of your self-esteem and power.'"

Building on Einathens' observation I suppose is the question how does the individual who is described as less manly respond to the (presumably negative) construct? Whereas some with perhaps a frail sense of self-worth, may be crushed, others possessing a strong sense of self-confidence will find such descriptions to be meaningless. Perhaps this is an aspect of the Ayn Rand protagonist that I found admirable: someone who, as a consequence of his sense of self-worth, seemed generally immune to the barbs of society.

[einathens]

as far as rand goes, i'd call it self-absorption, not self-worth, but what-ev.

a bit of historical trivia: macho '50s stud rock hudson had an average penis and was promarily a bottom. paul lynde had a huge cock and was a stone top.