An acceptable case of stealthing

[neg4poz]

couldnt disagree more - AGAIN - you dont get to cry rape in a dark room full of pigs with your loose sloppy asshole open and your legs in the air - theres a million other SAFE places for you to play - I'm ALL for everyones right to bareback or not to bareback - but with those choices you still have RESPONSIBILTY - choosing to climb on a fuck bench in a dark GROUP room in a bath house with a bunch of partying men IS NOT A RESPONSIBLE CHOICE FOR A NONBAREBACKER -

you dont get to walk out in the middle of a baseball game and demand that everyones plays softball - ITS UNREASONABLE - get the fuck off the field and go to a softball game - or sit quietly in the grandstands and be a spectator - but dont walk to the center of the field and prop your ass on the pitchers mound and not expect to get beaned by a line drive - its UNREASONABLE and UNRESPONSIBLE

[rawTOP]

couldnt disagree more - AGAIN - you dont get to cry rape in a dark room full of pigs with your loose sloppy asshole open and your legs in the air - theres a million other SAFE places for you to play - I'm ALL for everyones right to bareback or not to bareback - but with those choices you still have RESPONSIBILTY - choosing to climb on a fuck bench in a dark GROUP room in a bath house with a bunch of partying men IS NOT A RESPONSIBLE CHOICE FOR A NONBAREBACKER -

I gotta say I agree. A safe sex top can go into a dark room and pull out a rubber. And a safe sex bottom can go into a dark room and suck dick. But a safe sex bottom who throws his legs in the air or bends over a fuck bench in a dark room is just being incredibly stupid. They need to find a more appropriate place to get fucked. There is one exception to that - if the context of the dark room is a safe sex party. But if there's considerable barebacking going on, then the bottom should not be getting fucked in a dark room.

[fetishpigbottom]

I agree totally. In all my years of going to sex clubs in the US or abroad, I don't think I've ever seen protected sex sex in a dark room environment. Those who want it safe usually cruise and then go to private rooms. If you're ass up on a fuck bench with a sloppy hole and you expect all raw dicks that blow in you're ass to be clean then you're a fool. I don't even consider that "stealing" as when you invite tops to bareback your hole you should be accepting all responsibility and risks that come along with it.

[Hotload84]

unacceptable. you don't get to make the decision for him, nor decide what he should or shouldn't expect.

he has the right to insist on condoms. you have the right to decline to fuck him. period

I've gotta agree with Einathens.

[drscorpio]

I think there are two things getting confused in this discussion. First, there is the issue of whether it is acceptable to thwart another person's desire to play safe in a situation where bareback is the norm. Second, there is the issue of whether or not said person can reasonably expect to succeed at their aim. I think it is perfectly reasonable to believe that the actions described by the original poster are wrong (that is this is not an acceptable case of stealthing) and to also believe that the bottom in question was delusional for thinking his risk management strategy would work.

Here's an analogy. Suppose some young guys are sharing an apartment. One of them comes home drunk and leaves his wallet on the table. The next morning, he finds $20 missing from his wallet. Was his strategy for protecting his money stupid? Absolutely. Did the guy who lifted a 20 from his wallet steal? Absolutely. Should we put more blame on the guy who left his cash for the taking or for the guy who saw his chance to get away with something and went for it? I think that's essentially what we are discussing in this thread.

[einathens]

to answer your analogy, the guy who lifted the $20 knew it was wrong and did it anyway, and the guy who left his wallet out knew (drunk or not) that he was home, where he could reasonably expect not to be stolen from.

whether you think the hypothetical safesex bottom in the darkroom is an idiot or not, and whether you think expecting to be listened to and treated fairly in those circumstances is foolhardy, you don't get to make the decision for anyone else.

[youngslut]

While I agree that it's kind of foolish to go into such a situation and expect safe sex to be the standard, I still feel like this is similar to the "the victim was asking for it because ______" defense that people use to protect rapists.

[rawTOP]

Here's an analogy. Suppose some young guys are sharing an apartment. One of them comes home drunk and leaves his wallet on the table. The next morning, he finds $20 missing from his wallet. Was his strategy for protecting his money stupid? Absolutely. Did the guy who lifted a 20 from his wallet steal? Absolutely. Should we put more blame on the guy who left his cash for the taking or for the guy who saw his chance to get away with something and went for it? I think that's essentially what we are discussing in this thread.

Wrong analogy... Now lets say he left his wallet at a bar. When he goes back for it he finds $20 missing. Yeah, the person stole, but I'd say the thief was being incredibly kind by leaving all his IDs. I'd say that is roughly the equivalent of a undetectable or confidently neg top blowing a load in a safe sex bottom who's bent over in a dark room. The person who steals the entire wallet and then uses the IDs for identity theft would be equivalent to a poz top with a high viral load blowing a load in the bottom.

In the end an undetectable or neg top is actually doing the guy a favor. He'll discover cum in his ass, freak out, and figure out that bending over in a dark room is a bad idea. OR, he'll jack off to the idea and go back and start bug chasing... Either way I don't see a problem if the top can't infect the bottom.

[whiteslutbttm]

Baseball analogy is totally off. The bottom isn't saying "everyone has to play safe with everyone else", he's saying "if you want to fuck me it has to be safe". Do you seriously not see the difference?

I make people wear selt-belts when they ride in my car. I don't want to face consequences (get a ticket) for their risky behavior. So, they can choose to ride in my car belted, or find another ride. I'm not trying to make them always wear a seat-belt when they get in a car, just MY car.

Is the bottom expecting safe sex while bent over in a darkroom being a dumbass? Yes. Should he be surprised if he ends up with cum in his ass? No. Does he have the right to be upset with the assholes who barebacked him despite knowing he only consented to safe sex? Yes!

I like cruising rest stops for sex late at night. I know it's dangerous; I could get beaten up or robbed. It would be bullshit for me to act surprised if any of that happened to me, but the guy beating me up/robbing me is still an asshole.

Edited May 15, 2013 by whiteslutbttm

[GermanFucker]

couldnt disagree more - AGAIN - you dont get to cry rape in a dark room full of pigs with your loose sloppy asshole open and your legs in the air - theres a million other SAFE places for you to play - I'm ALL for everyones right to bareback or not to bareback - but with those choices you still have RESPONSIBILTY - choosing to climb on a fuck bench in a dark GROUP room in a bath house with a bunch of partying men IS NOT A RESPONSIBLE CHOICE FOR A NONBAREBACKER -

The thing is: Probably everyone argues this situation with a real-life example in mind. But all of the examples differ at least in nuances. Reality isn't black and white, most of the time it's about interpreting shades of grey. From my personal experience: Almost all the fuckbenches I have seen in saunas, bars, clubs and cruising mazes were at least semi-lit and thus not completely anonymous. Most of the time the bottom was able to see what's going on and decide on what to let happen. If that's the case, it's simply his right to insist on condoms, just as it is the bystanders' right to tell him to go somewhere else.

As to the "partying". With all due respect: If someone wants to use drugs, it's HIS fucking choice. But he shouldn't fucking expect others to accomodate him.

you dont get to walk out in the middle of a baseball game and demand that everyones plays softball - ITS UNREASONABLE - get the fuck off the field and go to a softball game - or sit quietly in the grandstands and be a spectator - but dont walk to the center of the field and prop your ass on the pitchers mound and not expect to get beaned by a line drive - its UNREASONABLE and UNRESPONSIBLE

That is true if it's a bareback sex party or a P'n'P scene. If its just a general sex club, an ABS, a bathhouse or a cruising are, what actually happens is always up for discussion. Just like, for example, I have to put up with time-wasting cocksuckers when I'm cruising for anal: "No, you won't get to swallow my load, now piss off."

Group sex is a dynamic thing. And if the scene shifts into a certain direction (tweakers, barebacking), you are a major douche and an embarrassment if you insist on your way when ten other guys around you want something different. But it's just as embarrassing if none of the ten other guys is man enough to tell the spoilsport off. I really don't get how some men are courageous enough to bareback, to do drugs etc., but afraid of saying a few words like: "Just go away and let us have our fun."

[neg4poz]

none of these arguments are conviencing me otherwise - you have the right to not bareback but you dont have the right to infringe on the norm of the gathering - its a blacked out room reguardless of wether there is a glimpse of light - it has certain enuendos that are givens -its code - its a backroom - its no different than the reverse of someone showing up to a safesex party and initiating bareback play - its rude - its wrong - its UNREASONABLE AND IRRESPONSIBLE -

your missing the whole (hole) point of the argument - you want non barebackers choices to be respected - but the same non barebacker doesnt want to respect the space that is a given for barebackers - its bullshit!

[hole2use]

The fact of the matter is that all of these analogies are wrong. It is never right to go against one's wishes, even if you think that person deserves to be pozzed. Either keep the condom on or go fuck somebody else. This is not a harmless baseball game or a petty argument about $20. We're discussing at the very least a life altering decision and quite possibly a death decision that you stealthing poz tops are making for a "safe only" bottom.

Just because you are poz and healthy doesn't mean the bottom you stealth is going to be have the same HIV experience. The bottom that you stealth may already have medical issues that an HIV diagnosis would worsen. This bottom may also have serious reactions to HIV meds. Just because you didn't doesn't mean he won't.

I said this in another thread and I stand by it. You poz tops who like to stealth have a God complex. You don't want to share with the thousands of bottoms who would gladly take your seed...repeatedly I might add. You want to give it to bottoms who you know don't want it. That is what gets you off...it's not the sex act that is making you cum. It's playing God and succeeding that makes you breed.

There's a dark, scorching hot place in hell for you stealthing mother fuckers. I think you're sick! If I was a safe only bottom and ever caught someone doing that shit to me you wouldn't have to worry about being arrested or prison. I'd make damn sure you suffered on my terms which I won't disclose here.

Fortunately for you stealthers I'm a slut and will take a poz load. It's just all you poz tops near me are scared to death of a neg bottom.

[bbinbpark]

Well said Hole2Use. I find it's two extremes of tops. They are either deathly afraid of a guy who says their neg and don't want to have anything to do with them, or they have the fetish of stealthing everyone regardless.

Neg4Poz I wasn't aware that 'space' was being given to barebackers. As a matter of fact, in other threads there have been discussions about bathhouses having signs and policies against barebacking, part of the public health requirements etc. This subject, and the way you are discussing it, reminds me when I read on cruising websites about people complaining about 'old trolls' showing up to places and not letting them have privacy when they are getting it on with others. This is not your bedroom, it is a business open to the public and that means there are going to be patrons that don't match your ideals there. The safe sex bottom has every right to be there and have the experience he wants as you do. End of story, get over it.

[blacknight]

Wrong analogy... Now lets say he left his wallet at a bar. When he goes back for it he finds $20 missing. Yeah' date=' the person stole, but I'd say the thief was being incredibly kind by leaving all his IDs. I'd say that is roughly the equivalent of a undetectable or confidently neg top blowing a load in a safe sex bottom who's bent over in a dark room. The person who steals the entire wallet and then uses the IDs for identity theft would be equivalent to a poz top with a high viral load blowing a load in the bottom.

In the end an undetectable or neg top is actually doing the guy a favor. He'll discover cum in his ass, freak out, and figure out that bending over in a dark room is a bad idea. OR, he'll jack off to the idea and go back and start bug chasing... Either way I don't see a problem if the top can't infect the bottom.[/quote']

This is my point a neg or undetectable top wouldn't be doing the bottom and harm.

[whiteslutbttm]

Even IF the backroom was a bareback-only area, the way to deal with the situation is to kick out any condom-users. Raping them to "teach them a lesson" is monstrous. There are NO circumstances that make it okay to force people into sex they don't want. No matter what bullshit justifications you might try come up with, rape is not okay.

Also, if a guy is going around barebacking other guys, there's no way to be sure he is neg, so that "what if a guy is sure he's neg" scenario is crap. Plus, even if a guy is 100% clean/neg he still doesn't have the right to cum in someone without their consent.

Guys on this site always bitch that society (even mainstream gay society) doesn't want to let us make our own choices (about drugs, sex, who we marry); it sickens me to see people on this site saying consent doesn't matter, and that is's okay to ignore the rights of others.

Edited May 16, 2013 by whiteslutbttm