Should us barebackers be responsible for ourselves?

[fuckboy20]

Okay, lets hope I phrased that right. If I come up with something better I will.

So I went to a prep meeting tonight which was apparently a really big deal. Yeah, I'm poz and it's not very effective. At least not for me. But I wanted to learn more about PREP because I keep meeting and talking to more and more neg guys who are on PREP and some which I've fucked.

But I'm not going to really get into PREP. Something that was discussed tonight really got me thinking.

It seems like PREP isn't really designed for guys who bareback and don't use condoms or safe sex. It's more for guys who do use condoms. Despite this, the CDC and health members believe that druggies, barebackers, or guys who are at risk can and should get on PREP to protect themselves and others.

I was really baffled at that. Someone who shoots needles, should be given the chance to protect themselves and others? Keep in mind, I have nothing against druggies, poz guys (I am), barebackers, (I am) and etc.

I've just always believe that whatever my actions are, they will have consequences. Like being poz and wasn't able to get tested or on meds at first because of my shit insurance. Didn't even want to go on ADAP. I guess my view was I knew damn well what I was doing taking as many loads and raw cock as I could up the ass and even getting an STD, but I did get that taken care of and got my blood checked. But I'm probably in the minority in that. People who bareback all the time will go on PREP to protect themselves and others and if they can't afford it they'll have insurance or someone else pay for it. Or even demand they should be on it.

It was mentioned that in the south (I'm in GA) that there is a lot of traditional influence and like when birth pills first came out the verdict was "Keep it between you're legs". Some people will say. "Just don't have sex." "Or just don't bareback". But I can't believe that from a medical and professional view it's believed that those who live sexual lifestyles or dangerous lifestyles should be protected and taken care of even if they can't afford it. It just...does not compute with me for some reason.

I can't be alone in this. I'm sure there are people here who once they found out they became poz or when they barebacked knew that if something where to happen it's their responsibility and fault for doing something dangerous. But despite danger, reason, or logic, we still do what we do. I'm also saying this because obviously people who are neg and bareback or made a mistake fought for this I'm sure lots of people did which is why PREP is progressing very quickly.

So the question is whether poz or neg. You're actions that you do in terms of sex or what you do during sex, drinking, drugs, or whatever. Do you really believe that we should be taken care of and for next to nothing too if the option is available or if you have to fight for that. Again, I'm not trying to be negative I'm just sort of in disbelief, but it's probably a good thing. I honestly don't. I'm poz, I barebacked, it's my fault. If I get an STD, that's because of the choices I made. But then again, I sort of thought after I became poz, that was pretty much it and live or die, it's all in my own doing.

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

PrEP designed for condom sex? Not true... But official CDC stance, at least initially was as protection in addition to condoms. But in fact, that really doesn't matter. PrEP taken as directed will prevent HIV infection. There isn't a limit for how often you take raw loads. Effectiveness can be less in presence of other STI's, but even there is a fair amount of wiggle room.

[Guest]

fuckboy20 - yes, people are responsible for their own actions - good ones and bad ones .. and sometimes people make mistakes - that's being human. BUT - there are lots of things in life that exist so people have "safety nets" - you mentioned birth control (in many forms) - makes it "easier" for str8s to have sex without having babies .. do you think all str8s would cease to have sex if birth control didn't exist? Insurance of all kinds - is a "safety net" - to financially help people for all sorts of incidents .. obviously, before PrEP guys were having bareback sex .. maybe more will now that they have PrEP because while someone may like bareback sex - not everyone (including not everyone on this board) wants to become poz but they like bareback sex. It's choices - whatever choice someone makes, it should be an informed choice. And my belief, like yours, is people are responsible for their actions. Your opinion isn't right - your opinion isn't wrong - it's your opinion .. just like your choices aren't right - your choices aren't wrong - it's your choices. As far as the financial implications of PrEP - I don't know that everyones insurance covers, or will cover it - it's still pretty new, right? Would that make a difference to people - to some, yes. But to others, maybe not. I went outside of my medical plan last year for a surgery because the only option my plan offered wasn't one I felt was right for me. So I paid totally out-of-pocket for it. So I made the choice that was right for me - not based on insurance, no based on what my plan doctor said - and I paid more money for it. And I'm happy with the decision I made .. and yes, I'm still paying off the balance! :-)

[Rayne]

I wouldn't know if this has been debated for very long, although I'm sure it has been; however, I really think it all comes down to how you look at it. What stance you take on STDs really determines how you look at STD prevention methods; at least, that's what I'm gathering from everyone I've heard talk about the STD issue. I stand on the lines of- The STD is just another part of life, and contracting it is just another part of sex. If you want to avoid catching something, don't have sex. If you want to minimise the transmission risk of HIV because you're fucking a lot of people, ultimately aiding in protection to both you and your partners, then go on PrEP. If you don't take it, whatever. If you take it, I applaud your attempt to help prevent the contraction of HIV. Simple.

Now, the methods used to get the medication is something that should be considered on a case-by-case basis, of course. Not everyone on PrEP is going to have someone else foot the bill. Personally, I think every gay/bi male should be given the option of the medication for free; it would be a great way to show the people you actually gave a fuck about them. Sure, it would cost a lot of money, but it would also be a great thing to do if you really wanted to prevent people from suffering a serious ailment.

Now, the one thing that most people find confounding with my view of HIV (or, really, any STD) is this: I don't think contraction is anyone's fault; I think it comes with the territory of a natural instinct we all have. Let's be realistic here. We're the only species, that we know of, that has such a complex brain to comprehend so many factors of how things occur/happen; yet, we use all of this to simply assign blame, when it comes to STDs. Why? Nearly every other creature on earth that mates doesn't think to itself, "I don't think I should fuck him/her because he/she might give me an STD," they just fuck. We think this 'loose' type of behaviour is absurd, yet the rest of nature's creatures engage in such a behaviour, as if it was... I don't know... natural? Oddly enough, those animals that are more promiscuous do not tend to have the same problems with their immune systems, that humans do, in regards to fighting off sexually transmitted infections. Is there a correlation here? Yes. Promiscuity is a GOOD thing for a species; just consider Darwin's model of natural selection. Given that, why should we bother blaming anyone for the contraction of an STD? Yes, someone gave it to you; but what's the point of blame? Ah yes, blame is the self-serving thing we do in order to alleviate someone of guilt; and guilt seems to be a huge thing with humans, even though it has no benefit to anyone, in any form. What a great reason to place blame/fault on anyone... Yes, I say it in this way because I'm tired of people thinking we need to care about who's fault this is. And no, that shouldn't be taken personally by anyone; I just had to get it all out one way or another lol.

Should PrEP be used to help prevent HIV infection in gay and bisexual men? Well, it's better than using nothing- right? Given the fact that most humans cannot fight off this infection, at all, I'd think that preventing the transmission in this way is definitely a great means to controlling the disease in those who do not wish to contract it. Should it be used for HIV prevention in place of condoms? Well, depending on the condom and user, yes. The fact that there are people who sabotage condoms, use condoms incorrectly (whether they know it or not), and that condoms do break more than people realise, for many different reasons, condoms are actually quite ineffective when being used by the wrong people. I'm not saying everyone should switch to only using PrEP; I'm saying some people would benefit from switching, if they were to use only one or the other. Condoms can also possess a health hazard, as a broken condom can end up with pieces travelling upwards during sex; this can lead to bowel blockages. While it isn't the most common thing to have happen, it does pose a health hazard. Considering that, one could say the term "safe sex," in reference to condoms, is a bit ironic. Then again, using both PrEP and condoms isn't a bad idea; however, if you want to use just one method of HIV prevention, proper use of PrEP is the one to go with.

I don't think the whole concept of sex is even looked at correctly any more, and this is why there is so much controversy and misunderstanding on so many levels. Because we've all been poorly educated about sex as children, and the mass majority rarely ever learn the truth about sex and STDs, we will likely never see any of this resolved. Keeping the lifestyle of bareback sex a taboo (for all sexualities) is a big part in keeping the 'morality' of society in check; and, unfortunately, those in the states (the only people I can really speak about) are not ready to give up their current thoughts on any of this. We live in one of the most concentrated christian nations on earth; this whole "risky sex" business is not going to be considered "okay" any time soon.

All of this is primarily a cultural problem, and is not a problem that should be considered to be one on the individual scale.

[rawTOP]

So the question is whether poz or neg. You're actions that you do in terms of sex or what you do during sex, drinking, drugs, or whatever. Do you really believe that we should be taken care of and for next to nothing too if the option is available or if you have to fight for that. Again, I'm not trying to be negative I'm just sort of in disbelief, but it's probably a good thing. I honestly don't. I'm poz, I barebacked, it's my fault. If I get an STD, that's because of the choices I made. But then again, I sort of thought after I became poz, that was pretty much it and live or die, it's all in my own doing.

Should smokers be given medical treatment for emphysema?

Should recreational skiers be given medical treatment for broken bones?

Should people who OD and cause permanent harm to their bodies be put on disability?

Should people who eat too much be given treatment when they get diabetes II?

Should a drunk driver who hurts himself in a car accident be given medical care for his injuries?

[And so on…]

Are any of those things caused by genetic impulses? (Probably not). But I think sex is clearly a genetic impulse, so if we treat the effects of things that people choose to do completely on their own, why wouldn't we treat the effects of something that's arguably a genetic impulse? Or, put another way, all of those other things should be denied before you deny treatment for STDs (like HIV).

[TigerMilner]

I go along with you. I believe very strongly that we should take responsibility for our choices. Blame is such a turn off to me. I'm poz because I like raw cock. It's no one's fault but my own. And then I'm very greatful that we have meds today that keep it from killing us.

[fuckboy20]

PrEP designed for condom sex? Not true... But official CDC stance, at least initially was as protection in addition to condoms. But in fact, that really doesn't matter. PrEP taken as directed will prevent HIV infection. There isn't a limit for how often you take raw loads. Effectiveness can be less in presence of other STI's, but even there is a fair amount of wiggle room.

I know that's not the full reason. It's partially an omission too that condoms in a sense have failed. Well, not that condoms fail when used. But that more and more people fail to use condoms and I think it's %30 rise of people not using protection. It's bad but somewhere a little voice inside me is saying "Yahoo". Not for the HIV infections or STDs but for the freedom. It was also mentioned that the promise or hope of "OH, a new HIV cure...10 years from now" got old to many people. Always hearing of a cure or something coming. I'm sure that also was a factor with prep too. Something solid, that can actually help now, instead of years from now being available. Of course the CDC can't say, "Oh, well we now people bareback so here, use PREP and bareback all ya want." Besides, not "everyone" will use it for that too. There are people who will use condoms, and people who will say they use condoms and won't.

fuckboy20 - yes, people are responsible for their own actions - good ones and bad ones .. and sometimes people make mistakes - that's being human. BUT - there are lots of things in life that exist so people have "safety nets" - you mentioned birth control (in many forms) - makes it "easier" for str8s to have sex without having babies .. do you think all str8s would cease to have sex if birth control didn't exist? Insurance of all kinds - is a "safety net" - to financially help people for all sorts of incidents .. obviously, before PrEP guys were having bareback sex .. maybe more will now that they have PrEP because while someone may like bareback sex - not everyone (including not everyone on this board) wants to become poz but they like bareback sex. It's choices - whatever choice someone makes, it should be an informed choice. And my belief, like yours, is people are responsible for their actions. Your opinion isn't right - your opinion isn't wrong - it's your opinion .. just like your choices aren't right - your choices aren't wrong - it's your choices. As far as the financial implications of PrEP - I don't know that everyones insurance covers, or will cover it - it's still pretty new, right? Would that make a difference to people - to some, yes. But to others, maybe not. I went outside of my medical plan last year for a surgery because the only option my plan offered wasn't one I felt was right for me. So I paid totally out-of-pocket for it. So I made the choice that was right for me - not based on insurance, no based on what my plan doctor said - and I paid more money for it. And I'm happy with the decision I made .. and yes, I'm still paying off the balance! :-)

I'm aware that people make mistakes, everyone does. I'm becoming more and more aware of all the safety nets too. I didn't mean it like that. PREP was compared to the reaction that the birth pill got when it first came out. It was assumed that if a women didn't want to get pregnant...she doesn't get pregnant and keep it between her legs. I'm in the south mind you, lots of traditional views down here. Of course, guys wouldn't cease to have sex if there were no safety nets straight or gay. I know not everyone wants to be poz, even some of the people on this board who are poz didn't want to be poz.

Thank you, I actually really respect that view. The more mainstream PREP becomes the more it will help. The fact that the AHF guy blantantly called it a party drug and that it got in the paper or something or news is helping. For some reason, Georgia is embracing PREP extremely fast. Not only that but there was some statistics of HIV being extremely high in GA too, the top. Same goes for STDS. I laughed so hard when they said that, well inside that is. Traditional values, being told what to do and not do, people hiding or trying not to be what they really are. That all contributes.

I believe someone said they pay like $10 a month for PREP. The bigger problem is getting doctors to allow people to get on PREP, moreso outside the LBGT health network and the "stigma" about wanting to take truvada and not being poz. I'm glad you were able to get the surgeory done and that it was your choice to pay out of pocket for it. I'll just elaborate one more thing on that pocket net, but I won't get too much into it. Although...I said that about PREP. You said safety net, safety net for so many things. I just kinda wonder when enough is enough. Since I knew the risks of HIV and STD's I barebacked anyways. Was that really human error and should I really be pardoned or helped for that or is it my fault? I feel it's my fault, and my choice. Fortunately anyone get really get treatment for HIV regardless of their situation. Which is another thing I see them doing with PREP more in the future. It would be interesting if in a few years guys say, "Are you on PREP? Are you undectacble?"

Could you imagine that. No more of that clean shit. And it's already starting to show.

[fuckboy20]

Sorry if double posting isn't okay. Just a lot to quote and reply too. Besides, I've seen people double post to reply to a quote and not get told anything. So if it's not okay, someone let me know.

I wouldn't know if this has been debated for very long, although I'm sure it has been; however, I really think it all comes down to how you look at it. What stance you take on STDs really determines how you look at STD prevention methods; at least, that's what I'm gathering from everyone I've heard talk about the STD issue. I stand on the lines of- The STD is just another part of life, and contracting it is just another part of sex. If you want to avoid catching something, don't have sex. If you want to minimise the transmission risk of HIV because you're fucking a lot of people, ultimately aiding in protection to both you and your partners, then go on PrEP. If you don't take it, whatever. If you take it, I applaud your attempt to help prevent the contraction of HIV. Simple.

Now, the methods used to get the medication is something that should be considered on a case-by-case basis, of course. Not everyone on PrEP is going to have someone else foot the bill. Personally, I think every gay/bi male should be given the option of the medication for free; it would be a great way to show the people you actually gave a fuck about them. Sure, it would cost a lot of money, but it would also be a great thing to do if you really wanted to prevent people from suffering a serious ailment.

Now, the one thing that most people find confounding with my view of HIV (or, really, any STD) is this: I don't think contraction is anyone's fault; I think it comes with the territory of a natural instinct we all have. Let's be realistic here. We're the only species, that we know of, that has such a complex brain to comprehend so many factors of how things occur/happen; yet, we use all of this to simply assign blame, when it comes to STDs. Why? Nearly every other creature on earth that mates doesn't think to itself, "I don't think I should fuck him/her because he/she might give me an STD," they just fuck. We think this 'loose' type of behaviour is absurd, yet the rest of nature's creatures engage in such a behaviour, as if it was... I don't know... natural? Oddly enough, those animals that are more promiscuous do not tend to have the same problems with their immune systems, that humans do, in regards to fighting off sexually transmitted infections. Is there a correlation here? Yes. Promiscuity is a GOOD thing for a species; just consider Darwin's model of natural selection. Given that, why should we bother blaming anyone for the contraction of an STD? Yes, someone gave it to you; but what's the point of blame? Ah yes, blame is the self-serving thing we do in order to alleviate someone of guilt; and guilt seems to be a huge thing with humans, even though it has no benefit to anyone, in any form. What a great reason to place blame/fault on anyone... Yes, I say it in this way because I'm tired of people thinking we need to care about who's fault this is. And no, that shouldn't be taken personally by anyone; I just had to get it all out one way or another lol.

Should PrEP be used to help prevent HIV infection in gay and bisexual men? Well, it's better than using nothing- right? Given the fact that most humans cannot fight off this infection, at all, I'd think that preventing the transmission in this way is definitely a great means to controlling the disease in those who do not wish to contract it. Should it be used for HIV prevention in place of condoms? Well, depending on the condom and user, yes. The fact that there are people who sabotage condoms, use condoms incorrectly (whether they know it or not), and that condoms do break more than people realise, for many different reasons, condoms are actually quite ineffective when being used by the wrong people. I'm not saying everyone should switch to only using PrEP; I'm saying some people would benefit from switching, if they were to use only one or the other. Condoms can also possess a health hazard, as a broken condom can end up with pieces travelling upwards during sex; this can lead to bowel blockages. While it isn't the most common thing to have happen, it does pose a health hazard. Considering that, one could say the term "safe sex," in reference to condoms, is a bit ironic. Then again, using both PrEP and condoms isn't a bad idea; however, if you want to use just one method of HIV prevention, proper use of PrEP is the one to go with.

I don't think the whole concept of sex is even looked at correctly any more, and this is why there is so much controversy and misunderstanding on so many levels. Because we've all been poorly educated about sex as children, and the mass majority rarely ever learn the truth about sex and STDs, we will likely never see any of this resolved. Keeping the lifestyle of bareback sex a taboo (for all sexualities) is a big part in keeping the 'morality' of society in check; and, unfortunately, those in the states (the only people I can really speak about) are not ready to give up their current thoughts on any of this. We live in one of the most concentrated christian nations on earth; this whole "risky sex" business is not going to be considered "okay" any time soon.

All of this is primarily a cultural problem, and is not a problem that should be considered to be one on the individual scale.

Not a bad view. Same could be said for someone who goes undetectable. (Fuck, why can't I spell that properly...?) Someone who fucks around and not on meds who might be infecting others is just whatever. Someone who gets on meds and protects himself and others is applauded. Like jay said, it's all personal views and opinions. But I can see from a health view how getting "everyone" on medications that qualify and are able will ultimately help. And yes, it is actually good when people care about others and want to protect them and themselves in a sense. STD's do come with fucking and lots of sex, even if it's nature.

Some people will be able to afford it out of pocket, some will have their insurance help, and some will need assistance. But you're right, and what they believe too. Everyone who is a candidate and wants to should be able to get on prep. Straight or bi. That might help get a lot of the bi's out of the grey area too. Because that's partially what they're in. It's true, they aren't really counted in statistics as much. But they also represent the straight community and view in a sense too.

I'm glad you said all of that. Lately, I've been feeling guilty that on several occasions I've fucked around like an animal, bending over taking any and random cock up the ass, shoving a cock in a guy and breeding them, not knowing who they are or caring or not asking or caring about status. But in the RIGHT environment and in bareback or cum union type environments. And, from several view points, and partially my own what I've been doing is wrong, because I'm not on meds. So if I'm just an animal I should just fuck whoever and not worry about status and shit like that.

In many ways we are animals, except as you said. We have the ability to reason, think, and have a mental capicity that animals don't have. This is what seperates us from animals. Just as it is an animal instinct to mate and breed. It's also animalistic to want to "PROTECT" or "CARE FOR". So those views are equally important as well. Someone who breeds and fucks around with no care for others would be labelled as a threat. Even animals know the instinct known as "threat" or "fear". Yes, animals don't blame. As humans, I believe we do have some responsibility, unless we truly can't think, reason, or have any mental capacity. That's a whole other story. Guilt, isn't always a bad thing either. But in terms of STD's I don't think people should be blamed if they get it. Now if they know they have it and they fuck others, that's more of a gray area. I'm still not entirely sold on "is it someone fault" if they became poz or not or if they infect someone else even if unintentionally. To me, that's a grey area.

I forgot that condoms break even unintentionally sometimes. And yeah, when I was younger I knew someone who didn't know how to put on a condom properly too. I have a feeling, he rarely used them. I still think that it's not so much the condoms are ineffective, it's more the fact that many men choose not to wear condoms. It's not really the condom makers fault if people don't want to wear them they won't wear them. Although, it does in a sense give off the impression that the idea of condoms and using them has failed for many. I've never known a condom to break or get stuck inside a guy. I have heard stories, well if you could call them that, instances of guys expelling condoms from their ass. I guess it could happen, but worse if it gets broken up and stuck inside or pieces. Whether people want it to or not, I'm sure that PREP will in time be viewed as a preventive towards HIV just like condoms. But I doubt people will be able to be honest with their health provider (unless really good relationship) and say, "Hay, I like taking loads up my ass and fucking lots of guys raw. Can I get on PREP?" Just like not everyone is honest when the doctor asks, "number of sexual partners" or "did you have sex bare and if so how often."

I'm sure that varies for everyone though. I cannot agree on that more. It is my strong belief that as long as "bareback" remains a "Oh, don't talk about that", "Don't do that.", "Did you hear so and so bareback?", "Stay away from him he barebacks?" people won't be truthful with others about barebacking about being poz, std's, or anything. Having to hide something because others can't and won't understand you makes you very cautious about telling people anything overtime. Sex in this country is so fucked. I'll never understand while murder, violence, drugs, and alcohol can be shown on tv or in movies but god forbid a side boob, dick, or anything sex related be on tv. This country is more excepting of violence, drugs and alcohol then they are of sex. The morality of society is complete bullshit too. If it were "Truly" based on morals and "respect" it would be one thing but it's farm from it. My only hope is that as the older generation of traditional values disappears a newer generation will be freer to speak and bring about change and acceptance.

It is very much a cultural problem. Someone says something or asks a question. They get looks, shunned, or judged because the exact same person who is judging them or viewing the person is basing their opinions and ideas based on culture, pop culture, societal norms, and a mixed and large view of morality not their own. In short. I don't think many people can think for themselves or have an opinion that is truly their own and not a shared one to save their lives. And unfortunately, those are the people in power. But I'm getting, way off topic...

Should smokers be given medical treatment for emphysema?

Should recreational skiers be given medical treatment for broken bones?

Should people who OD and cause permanent harm to their bodies be put on disability?

Should people who eat too much be given treatment when they get diabetes II?

Should a drunk driver who hurts himself in a car accident be given medical care for his injuries?

[And so on…]

Are any of those things caused by genetic impulses? (Probably not). But I think sex is clearly a genetic impulse, so if we treat the effects of things that people choose to do completely on their own, why wouldn't we treat the effects of something that's arguably a genetic impulse? Or, put another way, all of those other things should be denied before you deny treatment for STDs (like HIV).

Those are some great examples rawtop. I forgot that some people relate barebacking to something like skydiving, skiing, or other high risk activities. Athletes, people do other stuff that's dangerous everyday but they do it for the thrill, the rush, and for their own reasons. The only difference with barebackers is we're supposedly spreading all kinds of shit to everyone and becoming a health threat.

In that case though there are labels for those who drink such as alcoholic, smokers, obesity, druggies, would that make us sex addicts? Or does that just make us barebackers. No, it really just makes us, "us". I just worry sometimes that all these programs, fundings, and the lengths that are taken to take care of people who put themselves at risk whether unintentionally or intentionally. Well, I just wonder if they can do it forever.

[wood]

So the question is whether poz or neg. You're actions that you do in terms of sex or what you do during sex, drinking, drugs, or whatever. Do you really believe that we should be taken care of and for next to nothing too if the option is available or if you have to fight for that. Again, I'm not trying to be negative I'm just sort of in disbelief, but it's probably a good thing. I honestly don't. I'm poz, I barebacked, it's my fault. If I get an STD, that's because of the choices I made. But then again, I sort of thought after I became poz, that was pretty much it and live or die, it's all in my own doing.

I will be blunt about this, and I hope you dont take it too personally. But, this post of yours was a bit rambling and disjointed.

PrEP is out there to help prevent HIV infections. Its not perfect, but its by far the best new thing we have out there to curb the rate of infection. What the CDC says about how PrEP should be used, and reality are two different things. Do I think everyone is going to continue to use condoms with it? no, do I think everyone is going to drastically change their habits, always bare back, and give their ass to anyone? also no. PrEP is not out there to take away responsibility from peoples actions, its there to decrease the ate of infection. There are still many other things that can be caught. People should be responsible but its not always the case. Condom usgae rates among gay men have been 40-50% since the late 80's, even when HIV was still deadly, so obviously that message is a failure. So with that said should we not care for anyone who has bad habits or makes mistakes? If that was the case we would be losing millions of people a year to all sorts of ailments and accidents, many the result of the conscious actions.

Lastly, the reason your post seem disjointed is because it honestly comes across as a bit angry. We all make our own decisions, and some have more consequences than others, but its seems like you are annoyed that PrEP is now available, and that had it been out there when you were infected, you might not have HIV today. Again, please dont take this too personally, I dont mean it as an attack, but its how it sounds to me.

[Poz1956]

It seems like PREP isn't really designed for guys who bareback and don't use condoms or safe sex. It's more for guys who do use condoms. Despite this, the CDC and health members believe that druggies, barebackers, or guys who are at risk can and should get on PREP to protect themselves and others.

There are multiple reasons for the "use PrEP with Condoms" message.

When the drug was in trails, they were unsure how effective it was. Advising people to take precautions, was wise, and ethical.

Heath providers by their nature are very conservative. They are very worried about the spread of other STIs. Advising the use of a condom, is their standard operating procedure for prevention of STIs. (Of course pre-HIV they didn't make that reccomendation.)

It is virtually impossible to prove that something is 100% effective. Statistical confidence intervals always leave the possibility that the results observed so far are just random chance. Because there is a remote possibility of Truvada for PrEP not working, again the medical SOP would be "make sure there is a back-up plan."

Since Safer Sex campaigns got rolling in 84 (and not really mainstream until 86), "Condoms, Condoms, Condoms" has been THE most important message. The powers that be are very comfortable with that refrain. (Funny how they were very uncomfortable with it in the beginning.) It's hard for them to change the paradigm they have grown to love. Add the conservative nature of politics in the US. For example, the CDC is still forced to have the "Abstinence is best," message in their HIV prevention pages, though thankfully no longer the first item on the list. And again, there's that STI thing, and the desire to prevent their spread.

The CDC isn't stupid, and they understand the reality of what's happening on the ground. They know how much condom use has fallen off. They are seeing the continued rise in new infections. Their mathematical modelling is producing frightening numbers. They need to be proactive and try and prevent the worst outcomes. Hence the CDC has put forward their statement. It really is a big deal, and huge step, for them to face the right wing backlash by highlighting PrEP. The CDC is being bold, and we should applaud them for that.

And finally, in the US, there is a legal environment where you can sue the vendor, because you spilled your hot coffee on your crotch. The coffee was too hot, and you can convince the jury that the vendor was negligent, thus winning the legal lottery, and walking away with tons of cash. Because PrEP can't be proved to be 100% effective, condom recommendations are a "cover our ass" prevention for lawsuits.

Do you really believe that we should be taken care of and for next to nothing too if the option is available or if you have to fight for that. Again, I'm not trying to be negative I'm just sort of in disbelief, but it's probably a good thing. I honestly don't. I'm poz, I barebacked, it's my fault. If I get an STD, that's because of the choices I made. But then again, I sort of thought after I became poz, that was pretty much it and live or die, it's all in my own doing.

I come from a place where healthcare is very different. Funding, availability, limitations, and benefits are all totally unlike the US. Government views basic health care is viewed as a social responsibility for the citizens. Emergency medicine, hospital stays, and major medical procedures are also covered. The "No normal human can afford these" life saving drugs are provided as well.

For example, the view on HIV is to keep me healthy. That keeps me working, keeps me paying taxes, and keeps me out of the hospital. In the long run, it's cheaper to give me antiretrovirals, than it is to treat me in hospital for Opportunistic Infections. Now with the clear benefits of TasP, it is obvious that treatment prevents more new cases. Universal access to ARVs should be a no brainer for any government.

STIs are the same. Treat them at no cost is of benefit, because it prevents onward transmission. It's a Public Health initiative.

PrEP is a tough one up here. We're still trying to figure it out. A friend is trying to get on it, but is frustrated by the bureaucracy and the cost (it's not covered). At one point he exclaimed "The cheapest way to get Truvada in Canada, is to become Poz."

If the price of PrEP was reasonable, then expecting someone who wanted it to pay for it would be doable. But it is ridiculously priced. We need a Dallas Buyer's Club for PrEP. Mass purchases, at a discount then pass the savings on to the consumer. Maybe once it goes generic, it will get more widely adopted. With the current prices, I expect some push back from US insurers, if there is a big uptake. I'd be willing to bet higher co-pays will appear

I think a guy who takes PrEP is taking personal responsibility, and an interest in his health. A Poz guy on meds i the same thing -- being responsible. Both are socially responsible as well -- preventing the spread of HIV.

I often wonder if the "me first" - "you did it to yourself, why should I pay for it" attitude of the far right, stems from the puritanical roots of the USA. The same could be said for views about sex. They love to use guilt and shame as tools of oppression. And in your letter I see you feeling both of those.

I'm truly glad they're pushing PrEP hard in Atlanta. Hopefully it will make a dent in new infections.

[rtpbbcub]

No, I don't agree. Fuckboy20, you seem to be confusing "responsibility" with p"rostrate self-flagellation for being a despicable human being." Kind of Nathaniel Hawthorne meets the 21st century.

[Rayne]

Like I said before, this is definitely a really big culture problem; those who view STDs in one light tend to deal with them one way, and vice versa. I see STDs as a part of nature; they are just nature's way of slimming the heard, and letting only the strong species survive. Some of you see them as <insert whatever you think here>, and you see an STD as something that is only given to those who deserve to have it. Question- what is the benefit you get out of placing blame on a person for contracting an STD? I really want to know, because I just don't see how it's beneficial in any way. Did I get it right with my previous post, or do you find a different reason for why you do it? It's a serious question, not rhetorical.

Fuckboy, you mentioned you've never known a condom to break, but have only heard stories of it. Well, I have had it happen plenty of times to me. When I was younger, and I was still afraid of sex, I used to be very meticulous about them. I'd check the expiration dates, inspect the fucking thing... I was like a condom Nazi; and I'm not kidding about that. I once had three break on me in a five minute window. Now, this was actually with a girl (comes with the bisexual territory), but there were actually pieces stuck inside her. Luckily, being that this was during vaginal sex, there wasn't so much of a worry like one might have with anal sex (gay or straight). Hate to throw in some vagina into what is practically a 100% gay thread, but I thought it would merit mentioning. My condom use is limited to straight sex, but I do have a history of them breaking on me with anal sex... so take what you want from that. The worst part for me, with condoms, is that the regular sized ones were too tight, and had a tendency to pop; yet the next size up was almost too big. Both of these problems can lead to unintentional risky sex, and sometimes you won't notice it until it's too late. Given that, I'd say condoms can definitely be a false sense of security to a lot of people.

Condoms, to me, seem to be one of those things that only work when the conditions are just right; kind of like baking. If the thing fits right, there's enough lubrication, the rubber isn't faulty, you left enough room in the tip, the top checks the condom every so often, and you trust the top to be honest if it breaks (sometimes the bottom doesn't notice it), THEN it can be considered safe. That's enough to kill the mood for me! Wearing a condom is like driving a speciality race car to work every day; you have to be careful, or else you might fuck everything up. I can't bother with that shit any longer hahaha.

I will bring one thing up that fuckboy mentioned.

In many ways we are animals, except as you said. We have the ability to reason, think, and have a mental capicity that animals don't have. This is what seperates us from animals. Just as it is an animal instinct to mate and breed. It's also animalistic to want to "PROTECT" or "CARE FOR". So those views are equally important as well. Someone who breeds and fucks around with no care for others would be labelled as a threat. Even animals know the instinct known as "threat" or "fear". Yes, animals don't blame. As humans, I believe we do have some responsibility, unless we truly can't think, reason, or have any mental capacity. That's a whole other story. Guilt, isn't always a bad thing either. But in terms of STD's I don't think people should be blamed if they get it. Now if they know they have it and they fuck others, that's more of a gray area. I'm still not entirely sold on "is it someone fault" if they became poz or not or if they infect someone else even if unintentionally. To me, that's a grey area.

The problem I have with this is that humans tend to think they're above all species because of the way we think. For all we know, we're the dumbest species on the planet, and we're too stupid to notice that truth. We have put ourselves so high up that we don't criticise ourselves enough to think that just maybe we're not different from any other species. Maybe every other species has evolved to a point where they don't have to worry about the things that humans do, and it's our timid nature that prevents us from evolving? It's a bunch of maybes, yes; but considering how little we actually know about the human brain, it's a bit naive to think we're separated from ANY animal by some hierarchy that is based around reasoning. If you read the way I worded my explanation of how our reasoning fits into this, where I stated, "We're the only species, that we know of, that has such a complex brain to comprehend so many factors of how things occur/happen; yet, we use all of this to simply assign blame, when it comes to STDs," you can see that I did not intend to imply superiority. I think humans may be different, as the brain appears to be much more intelligent; however, we may never be able to prove it, and we may never even know if other species actually consider such things that humans do. Again, we are naive to think such a thing is true; and I think it is that naivety that has caused our societal problems to snowball into the bullshit we have now. "Oh my god, you barebacK? You know you're going to catch something right? What if......" Shut up and live life. LOL

Now, considering that caring and protecting are also animal tendencies, you should also consider that animals are not as protective as humans are. Humans appear to be the only species that goes out of its way to protect every single thing it can. We're almost neurotic about saving any species we like. From panda bears to preventing people from committing suicide, we do every thing possible to prevent a member of a species from dying... unless it's an ant, a cockroach, or a mosquito. Yes, it's within the animal nature to protect and care for others; however, other animals have a unique feature that we call selfishness- self preservation. I can keep digging deeper into this, if desired, but it does get lengthy if I have to explain every minute detail that is involved. While some people will talk about humanity, one could argue that humanity is just a human invention in order to make ourselves feel better. Personally, I don't see how one can argue that point as it is lol.

And finally, in the US, there is a legal environment where you can sue the vendor, because you spilled your hot coffee on your crotch. The coffee was too hot, and you can convince the jury that the vendor was negligent, thus winning the legal lottery, and walking away with tons of cash. Because PrEP can't be proved to be 100% effective, condom recommendations are a "cover our ass" prevention for lawsuits.

The US has a big problem with lawsuits, and it stems back from when they started giving corporations the exact same rights as humans. While it can be beneficial, as it helps prevent certain companies from making outrageous claims, it can also cause vague wording to be used in order to prevent lawsuits. Thanks to knowing this, the real reason I'd hate to see someone catch HIV while on PrEP is because they'd try to sue the drug companies; I wouldn't even think twice about the fact they caught the bug, I'd be more concerned about the drug companies; if the case is played just right in court, who knows how badly this could affect the rest of those who are using it? It really does make me nervous, when I think what could happen if things went wrong in court. Of course I understand that companies will likely have amazing lawyers in this situation; but, shit happens. If really bad shit happens, that could mean a lot of people lose the most reliable pre-exposure HIV protective measure that we have. Unlikely, but I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer these days. Though, that extent is mostly paranoia.

[totalasspig]

Agree with RawTop.

One thing we all have to remember - we are consenting adults here - yes some of us may act like children, but when your over the age of 18, in the USA you are considered an adult.

Whether we take the first action the day we turn 18 like telling our parents that I'm an adult and I will come and go as I please, there where consequences to that, one being I was still in High School and I was still living under my parents roof - Dad made sure that I understood that and when I gave him attitude back, he gave it right back to me with a bare assed razor stropping and he said "I don't care if your 80 boy, I will still beat your ass if you fuck up".

I started very early with bareback sex (well back in the 70's no gay men used condoms) and I got my first set of STDS when I was 13. The guy who gave them to me immediately got me treated and even through the age of AIDS when people where dying, I still continued to bareback - I tried it with condoms a few times and did not like the feeling of vinyl sliding inside my hole, plus I wanted the guy load in my ass - For actions of my "consenting adult" mindset, I had Gonorrhea, Syphilis and Chlamydia multiple times - each treatment was pills or pills and shots in the ass, that I wound up paying for - I did it to myself, I knew the risks and continued to do it. I took responsibility for my own adult actions.

In 2005 my life changed with PCP Pneumonia - however still after all that, I still do to this day continue to bareback, and yes I've even had Gonorrhea, Syphilis and Chlamydia multiple times again - I get it cleaned up when it does happen.

It was "ME" and "ME" alone that choose to take it up the ass bareback. It was "ME" who let those men shoot their dirty seed into my ass.

In closing we are adults and responsible for our own actions. If you bareback you do pay later. I learned it. There is no magic bullet for HIV or any STD unless your willing never to stick your dick in a hole or have one stuck in your hole.

[hungry_hole]

Lately, I've been feeling guilty that on several occasions I've fucked around like an animal,...

There's no real reason to feel guilty about wanting to have sleasy anonymous sex, which is what I think you mean when you say "animal". The only reason that would justify any bad feelings about anon sex is catching or passing on STIs, but everyone in the anonymous sex environments is responsible for their own actions.

But in the RIGHT environment and in bareback or cum union type environments.

Then, nothing to worry about in spite of your possibly high VL. fuckboy20, you say you enjoy taking anon cock and having anon guys breed your hole. I'm sure some poz guy has unloaded in your hole. Should he be feeling guilty because he creamed your hole with his poz cum? Obviously not, so why should you worry about anyone else?

And, from several view points, and partially my own what I've been doing is wrong, because I'm not on meds. So if I'm just an animal I should just fuck whoever and not worry about status and shit like that.

Assume the holes you've been breeding are poz, just like yours. Just leave honesty for when you meet guys in non-anonymous situations. When I go to the sauna or a park and I have bareback sex with someone, I don't tell the next guy that I just had raw sex and that I may be infected. But I have done that with guys I know. And it's then their choice to have sex with me or not.

In many ways we are animals, except as you said. We have the ability to reason,...

I doubt the "animal" analogy is helpful when trying to understand sleazy sex. What would be helpful is to understand that wanting sleazy sex has little to do with "being gay" and more to do with "being male."

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

fuckboy20 I am curious, why are you holding off taking meds? Popular modalities are to med HIV early to reduce damage...