Should I Have Unprotected Sex With An Undetectable Poz Fisting Partner?

[garsento]

Hi!

Long-time lurker, here. Many of the stories here are quite hot, but I don't bareback in my personal life. Of my many sexual partners, I've willingly had unprotected sex only a couple of times with a long-time partner. (A couple of guys slipped it into me when I was bottoming without asking, luckily without anything happening.)

For the past three years, I've been involved on and off with one particular guy. An experienced fister, I met him on Recon when I started looking. Since then, we've had fun, although he's much more successful at bottoming (and how!) than I am. Besides fisting, oral sex and rimming have been on the menu, along with unshared toys.

I've known that he was poz from our first chat. That didn't bother me. I'm aware of how HIV is transmitted, and how it is not transmitted, and I haven't done anything with him that would be likely to transmit it. He is only into bareback fucking, I'm not, and that's that.

Recently, he has suggested to me that I might want to fuck bareback with him, on account of his undetectable HIV status. I am familiar with the research strongly suggesting that unprotected sex with a person whose HIV is well under control is as safe, at least from the perspective of HIV prevention, as protected sex with a person of unknown HIV status. Assuming that he's accurate--I have no reason to believe he is lying--I could have extra fun with him.

I'm not sure at all about this, though. Part of it has to do with my lack of any protection. I'd have no problem with going on PReP, but unfortunately PReP is not covered in Ontario by medicare and I do not have an extra 800 dollars a month to spend. I also wonder if there are some questions I should be asking him, the better to be as sure as possible about my safety, and if I should be asking him these questions.

Ultimately, I have sex to relax and to have fun. Among other things, I do not want my sex with anyone to be stressful, never mind risky.

Thoughts?

Edited September 4, 2014 by torcub

[bearbandit]

A difficult question, not least because of the unfortunate truth that some men lie. In the USA you'd be an ideal candidate for PrEP, and I'm sure I've read of Canadian doctors prescribing truvada for off-label use as PrEP. But as you can say you can't afford the $800 per month...

Really, it all hinges on how much do you trust this guy. I have HIV and I know that my viral load is low enough that I'm below the level at which I could pass it on. In fact it's a worst nightmare situation for me: my partner (also poz) was having a routine operation and the surgeon slipped resulting in one of the nurses getting sprayed with my partner's blood. I wrote Pozdaddy (it's in the Backroom Fiction section under chasing/giving) as an exercise to see if I could write and eroticise gifting.

Any request to see the printouts of his blood results is going to look crass - personally I'd take offence if someone asked me that. It generally takes a viral load of 1000 to be capable of passing HIV on, though last time I used that statistic someone here commented that there has been recorded a transmission from someone with a VL of 386. The European PrEP studies are all using 200 as their undetectable marker, whereas the figure varies from 70 down to 20 in the UK depending on which hospital you use.

The risk to you is much less if you're fucking him than the other way round. Is it low enough for you? Fucking after fisting may carry an extra risk because of micro-abrasions in his ass. Ultimately, it all comes down to the degree of risk you're prepared for. I used to use my motorbike as an illustration: although great fun, it's a risky form of transport. After putting tens of thousands of miles on various bikes, I had a minor accident, barely scuffing my leathers, but breaking my ankle badly enough that two years later I still need a stick to walk out of doors. To me the risk was worth it, even though I know I'll never ride again.

If he truly is undetectable, then he's one of the safest fucks in town: TasP, Treatment as Protection, is the natural counterpart to PrEP. When I see my doctor I'm automatically asked about sex I've had since I was last there: nothing to gain from lying. I presume his HIV clinic has the same approach to STIs as they can complicate things with HIV.

After all that, if I were HIV-, I'd go ahead and fuck him, and if someone were making me the offer I'd be reaching for the lube...

[wood]

Hi!

Long-time lurker, here. Many of the stories here are quite hot, but I don't bareback in my personal life. Of my many sexual partners, I've willingly had unprotected sex only a couple of times with a long-time partner. (A couple of guys slipped it into me when I was bottoming without asking, luckily without anything happening.)

For the past three years, I've been involved on and off with one particular guy. An experienced fister, I met him on Recon when I started looking. Since then, we've had fun, although he's much more successful at bottoming (and how!) than I am. Besides fisting, oral sex and rimming have been on the menu, along with unshared toys.

Recently, he has suggested to me that I might want to fuck bareback with him, on account of his undetectable HIV status. I am familiar with the research strongly suggesting that unprotected sex with a person whose HIV is well under control is as safe, at least from the perspective of HIV prevention, as protected sex with a person of unknown HIV status. Assuming that he's accurate--I have no reason to believe he is lying--I could have extra fun with him.

I'm not sure at all about this, though. Part of it has to do with my lack of any protection. I'd have no problem with going on PReP, but unfortunately PReP is not covered in Ontario by medicare and I do not have an extra 800 dollars a month to spend. I also wonder if there are some questions I should be asking him, the better to be as sure as possible about my safety, and if I should be asking him these questions.

Ultimately, I have sex to relax and to have fun. Among other things, I do not want my sex with anyone to be stressful, never mind risky.

Thoughts?

 

 

I think my biggest issue here is that it seems like you have some sort of feelings for the guy.  And because you havent really had bareback sex before, you need to be okay with the idea of becoming HIV+  

 

Before PrEP I pretty much only topped bare, it was my control mechanism, and while its not perfect, it helps.  Now with PrEP, its all different, and I dont worry.  Before I ALWAYS worried.  Since he is undetectable, he is fairly low risk, but hiv risk is also different for everyone, some people are just more susceptible than others.  Some people can go years taking tons of raw dick from anyone, and some people get infected from a guy with a fairly low VL the first time.

 

No one can really tell you what to do here, if you are comfortable with it, go for it, if not, don't.  It should also be said though if you are going to top him, its really low risk, him topping you after fisting you.. thats quite a bit higher.

    

Edited September 4, 2014 by wood

[garsento]

The risk to you is much less if you're fucking him than the other way round. Is it low enough for you? Fucking after fisting may carry an extra risk because of micro-abrasions in his ass. Ultimately, it all comes down to the degree of risk you're prepared for. I used to use my motorbike as an illustration: although great fun, it's a risky form of transport. After putting tens of thousands of miles on various bikes, I had a minor accident, barely scuffing my leathers, but breaking my ankle badly enough that two years later I still need a stick to walk out of doors. To me the risk was worth it, even though I know I'll never ride again.

If he truly is undetectable, then he's one of the safest fucks in town: TasP, Treatment as Protection, is the natural counterpart to PrEP. When I see my doctor I'm automatically asked about sex I've had since I was last there: nothing to gain from lying. I presume his HIV clinic has the same approach to STIs as they can complicate things with HIV.

After all that, if I were HIV-, I'd go ahead and fuck him, and if someone were making me the offer I'd be reaching for the lube...

Speaking about specific sex acts, if HIV wasn't a concern I wouldn't mind first fucking him then fisting him. A fantasy of jacking off inside him might be pretty fun to realize.

Asking what he means by undetectable, what threshold he's talking about, might be a good idea. Or not?

[garsento]

"I think my biggest issue here is that it seems like you have some sort of feelings for the guy.  And because you havent really had bareback sex before, you need to be okay with the idea of becoming HIV+ "

 

I'm not comfortable with that, though.

I've had plenty of sex with HIV-positive people before, including getting fucked by HIV-positive people. The issue for me is getting fucked without protection, specifically without taking protection at my end. Up to this point, protection has overwhelmingly involved condom use, with an interval of unprotected sex with someone HIV-negative I've trusted.

 

"No one can really tell you what to do here, if you are comfortable with it, go for it, if not, don't.  It should also be said though if you are going to top him, its really low risk, him topping you after fisting you.. thats quite a bit higher."

Him topping me might well be a possibility. I've no reason to think he's a total bottom, and I know that I'm certainly not a total top! There was one time while I was lying in the swing when he would have if I gave the co-ahead, and whenever I've taken a fist it has been after being fucked first.

    

[Poz1956]

Undetectabe in Canada is below 40.

 

I left Ontario 33 years ago, so I'm out of touch.  Do they have a provincial drug plan like Quebec's?  Do you have supplemental medical benefits through work?  If so, it's worth checking to see if they will cover PrEP.  I've seen deductables in Canada range from zero to $200 (ie I think he said 80% covered, but I need to check with him on that)

 

Personally I've always felt that if a guy was going to lie about anything, he'd lie about his status.  He's already given you the one piece of information that is most likely to make you reject him, so why would he lie about anthing sexual health related after that.  One guy on here proved me wrong, because he doesn't mention to people that he's not on antiretrovirals

 

If you feel you need some assurance, here's a list of questions you can ask. They are very parallel to the ones you should be asking a "Think's he's Neg" guy.  But do it gently and politely.  Explain that you're just trying to wrap your head around comdomless sex, and an undetectable viral load.  Hell, you can even blame me for suggesting you ask them.

• When was you last viral load test?
• How often do you tested?  (Probably every 4 months)
• How many years have you been on meds?
• How long have you been undetectable?  (The standard reccomendation is at least six month, but it sounds like he has probably been UD for years)
• Have you ever had any blips?   If yes, How high did the VL go?   Was it back to undetectable at the next test?
• It's also worth asking when he was last checked for other STIs,  In a "if you use it, test it" frame of mind, which orifices?  (He's probably vaccinated against Hepatitis A & B.  Hep C & Syphilis are probably part of his regular blood work. So that really only leaves Gonorrhea and Chlamydiae as things people routinely test for.)  Fisters are at higher risk for Hep C, so that's something you need to get cheked too.

A pretty standard rule of thumb is that the longer he's been stable at undetectable, the more likely he is to be undetectable today.  A french study said that the lengh of time also increases the odds that his viral load is really and truly zero.  Shorter than two years nudged it to possibly between one and 20

 

As others have said, this is a decision you must make for yourself.  It's all about your comfort level.

 

I've got a ton of links I could send you that show the risk is small.  I've been accused of Poz busterism propaganda if I just email the info without it being requested.  PM me if you want the stuff and I'll send it to you.

 

For example, one item is dated June and from the Quebec Ministry of Health and Social Services.  It asked their Committee on Sexually Transmitted Diseases and Blood Born Infections for reccomendations, that will be used to update the province's sexual health guidelines.  After reviewing the research, the committee responded with basically the 2008 Swiss Statement, and extended it to include gay couples.  Of course, just like the Swiss Statement, it limited the advice to serodiscordant couples.  Their rational was that a partner would know if the Pozzie was taking their meds, getting blood work drawn, and attending the routine medical follow-up.  (Apparently all the good undetectables are in a relationship, and us bad single undetectables are infectious as hell.  I'm not sure how my relationship status impacts my ability to transmit the virus.  It all comes back to the standard BS we always hear - You can never trust that a Poz guy is telling you the truth!)

Edited September 5, 2014 by Poz1956

[MackyJay]

You need to ask many questions and make sure he is UD and then go for it big time for fun.  I had a guy who 'trained' me for fisting and liked to take a 'dick break' to fuck me.  At first I would not allow it as I knew he was Poz but after doing quite a bit of research (took me about 3 months to look everything I could up on it) I was still quite afraid to try it.  LOL  Finally though I decided to let fate decide and we flipped a coin for it.  2 heads yes and 2 tails no out of three flips.  First couple of time were tails so he did not get to but as fate loves to change, the third time came up 2 heads.  True to my word I let him fuck me and it was BB all the way.  From then on I decided, hey, it is already done, so quit flipping and just took his loads for the 'dick break'.  I probably ended up with at least 10 or 11 loads from him.  It has now been since last year in March the last time we were able to get together though and I am still Neg as of my last testing. 

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

Undetectable was how I serosorted before PrEP.

Clearly this is your choice to make. And prior posts are rich with excellent points. Beyond this, you know the guy. You have a much better sense than any of us whether he poses a bonafide risk to converting you. The way you lay it out, I would probably go for the raw load.

[Ranger Rick]

At least make him buy you dinner, first.

[herenow46]

The risk is very minimal, and I enjoy sex with UD partners. I do not want to become HIV positive, but I have accepted that it is a possibility and I am ok with that. I think you should ask yourself, in the very slim chance that you sero-converted, would you be able to make peace with it. If the answer is no, then I do not think you should do it.

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

Echoing herenow46, if answer is "no" you should rethink condom sex too.

[pjaco]

The risk is very minimal, and I enjoy sex with UD partners. I do not want to become HIV positive, but I have accepted that it is a possibility and I am ok with that. I think you should ask yourself, in the very slim chance that you sero-converted, would you be able to make peace with it. If the answer is no, then I do not think you should do it.

I fully support your viewpoint herenow46

[sarutobi]

I think Poz1956 has the best plan of action. You've been playing with the guy for a while, so he shouldn't be bothered by the questions. You're clearly worried about possibly getting infected, so you should ask. If he's genuinely interested in you and not just using you, he'd have no reason to lie. At this point, if he wanted to give it to you he'd have probably tried already.

 

It's a tough decision. Everybody doesn't want to become poz (I certainly don't), but barebacking carries that risk. A person on meds for years is less likely to pass HIV along than someone who doesn't. In my experience, they're also less likely to lie about their status. Of the four guys I fucked who were undetectable, they offered information about their viral load, medication routine, and STI history on their own after I asked their status. One guy actually explained a ton of terminology to me before we fucked and asked about my sex history. He really didn't want me to put myself at risk.

 

Take the time to learn about the risks. Read the information that's out there. Don't make a snap decision.

[garsento]

Update time!

Last Saturday night I played with him. I topped him while fisting a few times, managing to get deeper. I also played just-the-tip with him.

 

We did chat about his status. He reports being undetectable for eight years, mentioning a non-resident partner who fucked him bareback for six of those years without converting. Fucking isn't essential to him, but he thinks it could add something interesting. No other STDs.

 

I'm not sure still how I feel about it. Doing this is a big step for me. I'm inclined to think that it might not be bad to try it out, but I still have some thinking to do.