Poz on meds, why?

[M4mnow2]

I’m reading about all these guys converting and a question came to mind ... but first ... I’ve read about guys who say they have to convert, need to be poz ... I’ve read about the guys who are poz who wish that they could go back and change things, I’ve read the comments from the poz guys who discuss, cost, challenges traveling, insurance challenges etc ... I’ve read the comments from the poz guys who want us neg bottoms to convert, yes, I’m neg and on PrEP. I recently read the thread from the poz guys complaining that the guys on PrEP should stop and accept their “true-selves”.

accepting that we all have the right to do our own thing, my question is this ... when the chasers convert ... because they want or need to ... why do you turn around and go on meds? What’s the point? You wanted to convert, why not truly experience being poz and all that it brings with it? 

Our world is so messed up right now, with everything ever changing, government changing/eliminating medical coverage, people restricted travel etc. why wouould any one of us potential take chances that could be fatal in the future. 

[ErosWired]

@M4mnow2 - You seem to be asking two questions here, 1) If someone wants to "convert", why would he bother taking medication, and 2) why would anyone want to "convert" to having a life-threatening disease in the first place?

For 2), these men (misguided, in my opinion as someone who has AIDS and did NOT want it) somehow believe that having the HIV virus in their system will confer some kind of benefit or status. They believe that they will at last be able to fuck bare without living under the shadow of catching the disease (untrue - you can always get superinfected), or that they gain acceptance as part of a group of men who are carriers, or for other psychological reasons I don't begin to understand because in my very real-life experience of having AIDS the idea of actually going out of your way to catch HIV is fucking nutzo.

Whatever the reason men decide they want to get the disease, for 1) the obvious answer is obvious - without the meds, the disease will kill them. It could be argued that being killed by the disease is the only way to have the "full experience" of contracting HIV, but none of these men actually want the full ticket in the first place. They only want it up to a point, and for the vast majority, only because they are ignorant of the actual price in suffering that they are signing up for.

Don't suggest that someone at risk of HIV consider not getting treatment. Don't wish that on your worst enemy. Please trust me, an AIDS survivor for nearly 4 years now, on this one.

[bbzh]

I don't think anyone wants to have an incurable disease that could kill you or cause others to discriminate against you, but I have a different take on this. If you are on PrEP, you are basically taking the same meds as poz guys...so what's the benefit of being neg if you are going to eat the same pills everyday as the poz guys? Now that's a question I would love to debate.  No one's talking about the long-term impact on health of taking the meds. I envision neg guys being extremely envious of the poz undetectable guys taking loads and said sign me up for the meds. Is it then logical to think that one day we will undergo preventative chemo to avoid cancer? I used to seriously question why anyone would willingly ingest pills to avoid something. If it's to cure something or prolong life, yes, I get it. Big pharma is sitting back laughing at neg guys. Why? They've figured out how to cash in on gay men's fear of HIV.  I'm one of the few who think HIV was introduced (intentionally) into the population to thin it out. So I'm waiting for the next sexually transmitted disease to be introduced and for companies to then turn around and sell us pills to stay alive. 

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, bbzh said:

I'm one of the few who think HIV was introduced (intentionally) into the population to thin it out.

You were making interesting arguments right up to this point, and then - blew it. Sorry, I look terrible in a tinfoil hat.

[drscorpio]

The difference between being Neg on PrEP and Poz UD on meds is that the Neg guy can decide to stop meds whenever he likes (technically a few weeks after he decides). 

[Guest alwaysready]

well, technically, a poz undetect. can also go off meds whenever he likes. I may have missed some earlier bits of thread, so my comment may be out of synch?

[tallslenderguy]

On 6/10/2018 at 3:30 PM, M4mnow2 said:

yes, I’m neg and on PrEP. I recently read the thread from the poz guys complaining that the guys on PrEP should stop and accept their “true-selves”.

accepting that we all have the right to do our own thing, my question is this ... when the chasers convert ... because they want or need to ... why do you turn around and go on meds? What’s the point? You wanted to convert, why not truly experience being poz and all that it brings with it? 

 

i think i understand what you are getting at.  As you note, it's the notion that: "...we all have the right to do our own thing...."  i too have noticed there is a segment of guys,  "chasers" who, for whatever reason want to be POZ. i've tried to understand this, and do think i understand some guys who chase, but not all. But i don't relate to chasing at all. i have no desire to have a disease (any) and was actually at an appointment to get on PreP when i found out i am POZ.  

There is apparently, a segment of guys who are POZ and not on meds. Some want the 'power' to infect others, some just want to be POZ.  i can sort of wrap my mind around their explanations, but cannot wrap my emotions around it.  i don't think it's a black and white topic that lends itself to grouping guys into neat little groups, though we sure try lol. Ultimately i think it is an individual thing, that there are some guys who have romanticized what it means to be POZ, or even have AID's, but i suspect there are very few people who when faced with the realities of AID's would actually want it. But on the other hand, i don't doubt such people exist, i just don't think they're a huge group and the nurse in me would try and get them on meds.  

[sthrnguy]

Every guy who chases does so for different reasons.  In my case, I just didn't care and was taking raw dick long before I should have been.  I decided to go for it because my partner is poz and it really bothered him.  That said, I have shared a few times for the simple reason that I have a wild non resistant strain and nothing else (no hep c, etc...)  and that chasers are going to go to great lengths to get what they want.  You are right, few if any want this to progress to AIDS.  I lost a cousin when I was 14 to it (1993).   So they have to go on meds.  No choice in the long run.  Its either the meds or a gruesome death.  I did try to go on PREP about 6 months before I got pozzed.  My doctor at the time told me that she would not be my enabler and that we should be using condoms.  I am not kidding.  No referral or anything like that if she had no idea what I was talking about.  I will say in her defense that PREP was just approved at the time and I guess she didnt know what I was talking about.  To sum it up, I couldn't make my partner (now of 13 years) neg, so I joined him in being poz.

[drscorpio]

20 hours ago, alwaysready said:

well, technically, a poz undetect. can also go off meds whenever he likes. I may have missed some earlier bits of thread, so my comment may be out of synch?

He can, but the virus will quickly start to multiply again. He cannot quit meds forever and stay healthy. 

[tallslenderguy]

15 hours ago, drscorpio said:

He can, but the virus will quickly start to multiply again. He cannot quit meds forever and stay healthy. 

The practice of going on and off of meds also facilitates the development of resistant strains of HIV. 

[Guest Upstateguy518]

I don't understand it either man. I can't wrap my head around it at all, Especially with all the baggage that comes with it. 

[6811283]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:32 PM, bbzh said:

If you are on PrEP, you are basically taking the same meds as poz guys...so what's the benefit of being neg if you are going to eat the same pills everyday as the poz guys? Now that's a question I would love to debate. 

If you are on Prep you are taking Truvada, which contains 2 drugs. If you're being treated for HIV you are taking at least three -- which might or might not include Truvada, but never just Truvada. So it's not the same. There's more potential for side effects or long-term complications for poz guys -- quite apart from the effects of the virus itself.

Contrary to what you say, people think and talk about the long-term implications of the meds all the time. Everyone on Prep is closely monitored for potential adverse effects.There are new versions of Prep with fewer side effects coming down the line. One, Descovy, is currently being tested. (Say what you will about the drug companies introducing something new when their patents are about to expire, which is another issue). No one who is HIV-negative is going to be taking Truvada indefinitely.

More to the point. Your sex life can change and you can end up no longer in need of prep. But if you are poz, and don't care to die of AIDS, you will have to take the meds for the rest of your life -- even long past the point of no longer being sexual.

If you are at risk of HIV and you are not capable of using condoms 100% of the time, it is a no-brainer. Better to take some drugs for some period of time, then to take more drugs forever.

[bbzh]

Guy #1: HIV neg, sexual from age 20 to 65, on PrEP the entire time, stops PrEP, dies at 70. (45 years of taking the drugs)

Guy #2: HIV+, sexual from age 20 to 65, on PrEP plus one extra drug, dies at 70. 

Don't see a huge difference other than guy ±1 doesn't have to take the pills (like guy #2) but chooses to. I'm not faulting guys for PrEP but I think there is this false sense that somehow they're winning. In regards to the long-term effects of the drugs, it will take time before we know. Big Pharma isn't trying to kill gay men - in fact, they'll make more money the longer we live. But we shouldn't forget they are more interested in sales and profitability than our health. Now if they developed a vaccine, they'd have my full respect. But there's no money in the cure. The money is in the pills. And I do believe most gay men these days are dying from other diseases not even related to HIV, which is why I am even more impressed that big pharma has managed to convince HIV neg men that PrEP is somehow the key to their longevity. 

[6811283]

Straw man. You're creating a perfect laboratory animal in Guy #1: someone whose sex life and Truvada use never change for 50 years, who never enters into an exclusive relationship or has a down period sexually, never just plain gets too old to get it up. An unlikely scenario. You're also postulating that, if he simply opted against PrEP, he would remain HIV-negative and hence drug-free. Also a big assumption, given that men who have sex with men have a 1 in 6 chance of contracting HIV in their lifetime (a figure that jumps to 1 in 2 for black men).

The idea that it is simply a personal choice between PrEP and not PrEP, and everything else remains equal, is false. Like it or not, condom use continues to trend downward (and it's not because of PrEP advertising, it's because raw sex simply feels better). Opting against PrEP means either resigning yourself to condoms and a smaller pool of willing partners, or accepting the risk of HIV.

Lots of guys on this site have chosen, until PrEP came along (and some since) that they'd rather take that risk and enjoy raw sex. If they got infected and never got treated, chances are damn good that they died of AIDS before anything else had a chance to get them. Otherwise, without exception, they went on 3-med regimes. The fact that guys now have the option to go raw with virtually no risk of getting HIV means that they will absolutely end up taking meds for fewer years than Guy #2 over a lifetime (not to mention the fact that PrEP is less drugs than treatment, something you just brush aside).

There will likely also be something akin to a herd immunity effect. Already, new HIV infections are dropping precipitously in major cities where PrEP is in wide use, even though uptake is far from 100%. Seroconversions are on track to approach zero in San Francisco. That benefits everyone, and there is no contorted way to argue it is a pharma conspiracy or has downsides for gay men.

As for Big Pharma, given the tinfoil hat theory about HIV at the end of your initial post it's not surprising that you are paranoid (and probably not worth my while trying to have ac rational discussion with you about it, but so be it). Yes, they're in it for profit. No, PrEP isn't some deliberate plot to get all gay men on drugs. Gilead (the manufacturer) had nothing to do with the research that developed PrEP -- it was entirely run by academics with US government funds [cue your Alex Jones conspiracy theories about the government]. Sure, Gilead is cashing in -- who wouldn't? But they've barely promoted PrEP, which remains a relatively insignificant part of their sales.

As for the fact that no cure has been developed yet: also not a conspiracy. It's just plain hard. HIV is very wily virus. A lot of brilliant minds have been working on this for decades -- and they are not all in on some secret pharma conspiracy to suppress a cure. If Gilead was sitting on one, you can bet they'd be marketing it -- at an exorbitant price, as they do with their Hepatitis C cure.

You "do believe most gay men these days are dying from other diseases not even related to HIV." Well, yeah. Because the introduction of ARV cocktails, and now PrEP, has made AIDS deaths very rare. I cannot fathom how you somehow derive from that that those meds are a bad thing.

[bbzh]

A couple of people have disagreed with some of the points I have raised and I take no issue with that. I think some of the insults are unfortunate, but I tend not to take things personally when I don't know the parties involved and they don't know me. For the record, I am not anti PrEP. I'm not convinced that one should be taking drugs as prevention. Truvada isn't exactly an aspirin:

https://aidsinfo.nih.gov/drugs/406/truvada/0/patient

Also, the insurance industry is actually discriminating against gay men who take it:

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2017/12/07/are-these-companies-discriminating-against-prep-users

The article states that insurers are unsure about the long-term effects of the drug, the point I was making earlier. 

Personally, I don't think HIV is the scariest STD out there. Hep C is. There is a cure for it but insurers are hesitant to pay for the treatment. I read quite a few posts on here about guys excited about going to bb parties now that they're on PrEP. They seem oblivious to the fact that they are at high risk for Hep C in a group setting.