Refusing Bareback Fuck

[Cutedelicategay]

I have a pig friend who likes to boast about his pig encounters. However off late a lot of guys are refusing to fuck him bareback even when he is on Prep and adheres to the daily routine. He didn't even take a prep holiday during the pandemic when he has less encounters. Remember we are in Canada where the society is still not prepared to take progressive stand despite political BS. What could be the reason? Is this the trend at other places as well? 

[BootmanLA]

I think the mistake is in framing this as a question of "why these guys don't want to bareback HIM", because for all you know, these guys do not want to bareback *anyone*.

It's true that PrEP works. But some people (a) don't believe that, (b) don't want to take chances even though it does work, (c) are worried about other STI's, (d) on and on with any number of reasons a person may choose not to engage in bareback sex.

The point is that none of us are *entitled* to have any particular person or persons fuck us bareback. Your friend seems to have hit a spate of guys who are not barebackers (which is their prerogative). He gets to choose: would he rather fuck with a condom, or not get fucked by this particular guy?

[Cutedelicategay]

Agreed that noone's entitled however the way I see this is a part of prep shaming. Previously HIV poz guys undesirable for many and there is a similar trend especially in Canada on prep shaming especially one of the chat he showed where the top is refusing bb bcoz he is not on prep. People just don't grasp the fact that prep prescription renewal is very strict based on 3 months tests. I would rather trust someone who is regularly tested and treated if required over just believing someone who says they are safe and clean but without regular testing. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Cutedelicategay

[1000GUYS]

2 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

I think the mistake is in framing this as a question of "why these guys don't want to bareback HIM", because for all you know, these guys do not want to bareback *anyone*.

It's true that PrEP works. But some people (a) don't believe that, (b) don't want to take chances even though it does work, (c) are worried about other STI's, (d) on and on with any number of reasons a person may choose not to engage in bareback sex.

The point is that none of us are *entitled* to have any particular person or persons fuck us bareback. Your friend seems to have hit a spate of guys who are not barebackers (which is their prerogative). He gets to choose: would he rather fuck with a condom, or not get fucked by this particular guy?

i love your posts... i love reading you... 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cutedelicategay said:

Agreed that noone's entitled however the way I see this is a part of prep shaming. Previously HIV poz guys undesirable for many and there is a similar trend especially in Canada on prep shaming especially one of the chat he showed where the top is refusing bb bcoz he is not on prep. People just don't grasp the fact that prep prescription renewal is very strict based on 3 months tests. I would rather trust someone who is regularly tested and treated if required over just believing someone who says they are safe and clean but without regular testing. 

 

This is something that I wish people understood. Fucking someone on prep is safer than someone who hasn't been tested in years (and you see LOTS of them on grindr), but that's not because of prep per se, it's because it's implied the user is getting tested every 3 months for pretty much everything. 

[fskn]

13 hours ago, Cutedelicategay said:

I have a pig friend who likes to boast about his pig encounters. However off late a lot of guys are refusing to fuck him bareback even when he is on Prep and adheres to the daily routine.

This sounds like PrEP shaming. As @Cutedelicategay and @bluewind point out, sex partners not on PrEP are the ones not receiving regular, frequent HIV and STI tests under an established, ongoing relationship with a medical professional.

If the people who turned down your friend were knowledgeable about PrEP — which isn't the case — they could doubt that he was actually following a PrEP regimen. For example, when I see HIV Status "Negative, on PrEP" in a Grindr profile but Last Tested is blank or the date is many months in the past, I realize that the person is not properly following a PrEP regimen. According to the CDC (I'm in the US) PrEP guidelines, sexually active/"at-risk" men who have sex with men should receive HIV and STI testing at least every 3 months.

Some PrEP users obtain their medication from unlicensed or foreign mail-order pharmacies, through friends, or by taking advantage of same-day PrEP initiation at a clinic but not returning for follow-up. Many stop taking their medication but still think of themselves as PrEP users (rather like putting on a bicycle helmet but not buckling the strap or, in today's times, wearing a mask but leaving your nose uncovered).

Some PrEP prescribers don't bother to insist on quarterly HIV and STI testing. Others (especially small, private practices) are not equipped to monitor PrEP patients properly.

Again, PrEP shamers wouldn't have these caveats in mind.

13 hours ago, Cutedelicategay said:

Remember we are in Canada where the society is still not prepared to take progressive stand despite political BS. What could be the reason?

I agree completely with your assessment of Canadian social mores. I grew up in Canada in the 1970s and 80s, in the country's largest and ostensibly most progressive metropolis, no less. I maintain close ties and return regularly.

In the 1980s, we were still not far removed from "Toronto the good", the label from the 1950s. Government liquor stores were closed on Sundays. Indeed, almost all Sunday shopping was illegal. Only convenience stores and small shops on a handful of designated tourist streets could open.

Government-funded television portrayed premarital sex, teen pregnancy, homosexuality, and divorce as life-destroying. Even program[mes] with a modern, progressive veneer, like  Degrassi Junior High and Degrassi High School, had the paradoxical effect of making sex seem dangerous and wrong.

In all of their former colonies, the British left a legacy of anti-sex laws and morals. Canada began to repeal these laws in the late 1960s, but the anti-sex morals remain. Canada placed severe restrictions on abortion well into the 1980s, and was even slower than the US at providing widespread access to medical (pill-based) abortion (literally just a year or two ago).

Predictably, Canada lagged far behind the US in approving Truvada for PrEP, and in implementing PrEP care. Paying for PrEP remains a problem in Canada because (unbeknownst to Americans), there is no government-sponsored prescription coverage unless you are a senior, a person with a disability, or someone with a very low income.

Canada, as far as GLBT people are concerned, remains a paradox. We gained legal protections in Canada many years before we did in the US, but social acceptance and practical supports lagged.

[Guest]

@fsknI've been personally turned down/blocked by people on hookup apps here for mentioning I'm on prep. The ignorance about the subject is astounding, some assume prep means diseased, bugchasing cumdump. I even had to specify that prep is used by people who are actually negative and want to stay that way. Things are slowly improving but we're a good 10 years behind the rest of western Europe. 

[nekofox]

6 hours ago, fskn said:

This sounds like PrEP shaming. As @Cutedelicategay and @bluewind point out, sex partners not on PrEP are the ones not receiving regular, frequent HIV and STI tests under an established, ongoing relationship with a medical professional.

If the people who turned down your friend were knowledgeable about PrEP — which isn't the case — they could doubt that he was actually following a PrEP regimen. For example, when I see HIV Status "Negative, on PrEP" in a Grindr profile but Last Tested is blank or the date is many months in the past, I realize that the person is not properly following a PrEP regimen. According to the CDC (I'm in the US) PrEP guidelines, sexually active/"at-risk" men who have sex with men should receive HIV and STI testing at least every 3 months.

Some PrEP users obtain their medication from unlicensed or foreign mail-order pharmacies, through friends, or by taking advantage of same-day PrEP initiation at a clinic but not returning for follow-up. Many stop taking their medication but still think of themselves as PrEP users (rather like putting on a bicycle helmet but not buckling the strap or, in today's times, wearing a mask but leaving your nose uncovered).

Some PrEP prescribers don't bother to insist on quarterly HIV and STI testing. Others (especially small, private practices) are not equipped to monitor PrEP patients properly.

Again, PrEP shamers wouldn't have these caveats in mind.

 

I'm agreeing big time about the PrEP shamers being ignorant.  There's even still a good portion that don't know/understand that Undetectable is BARELY able to infect/transmit, so unfortunately we still have a LONG way to go before everyone can acknowledge the facts instead of having such willful ignorance.

[Cutedelicategay]

The main reason for all this ignorance especially in Canada is also related to certain demographics. Males remain segregated from females and pre marital sex with women is considered blasphemous. These men look for gays for quick sexual gratitude. I had a hookup who was eventually sexually starved. I asked him when was he last tested and he told me that he didn't get tested bcoz he was straight and just wanted to fuck me bcoz he wanted sexual relief. Even after telling him that I am HVL and not on meds and would not use condoms he went and fucked me bare anyways. In Canada this is the major issue. Sometimes we gays are at fault to seduce such ignorant guys. The progressives in Canada are nothing but a bunch of idiots who wants 2 minutes TV fame.

[fskn]

8 hours ago, bluewind said:

... some assume prep means diseased, bugchasing cumdump. I even had to specify that prep is used by people who are actually negative and want to stay that way. ...

Me too. I used to try to educate such people (I volunteer with a public health organization that does HIV prevention research, attend conferences as a community member, read study protocols and research papers, and have participated in two major studies), but I now just wish them well and tap the block button.

3 hours ago, nekofox said:

There's even still a good portion that don't know/understand that Undetectable is BARELY able to infect/transmit, so unfortunately we still have a LONG way to go before everyone can acknowledge the facts instead of having such willful ignorance.

Having to explain PrEP, or U=U, to a fellow Grindr user is a boner-killer. The conversation is more likely to result in insults than in sex. I wonder why some people are incapable of performing a Web search and reading a leaflet from the CDC or another reliable source, or just asking their own doctors to explain PrEP and TasP.

People who refuse to sleep with PrEP users or undetectable Poz guys could be increasing their risk by favoring partners who don't have to get regular testing. They're also turning down experienced sex partners. You don't go to the trouble of following a PrEP regimen if you don't fuck a lot, and you don't become Poz by staying home and jerking off!

[ErosWired]

It’s not just ignorance, it’s willful ignorance. Some people don’t want to learn the truth about things when it conflicts with what they already believe or want to believe, even if the irrefutable proof is right in front of them. And this isn’t the occasional person on the fringe, this is true of a large swath of the population, who simply have not learned the skill if critical thought, and operate more or less purely off emotion and instinct.

I would never, ever have thought that so many human beings could be passive-aggressively irrational until the onset if the Trump presidency and the COVID pandemic. These two events have laid bare the fact that our society isn’t made up of the enlightened, reasonable thinkers our future hope of prosperity and advancement require us to be - it’s made of people who react instead of think, judge instead of consider, and reject sooner than accept.

This is unfortunate, because rational thought is not the human default. We have to go out of our way to do it. Our older, more primitive brain parts are still urging us to flee, fight or freeze every time we encounter something unfamiliar - which translates down the line into poz stigma and PrEP shaming in spite of U=U. It’s harder brain-work to learn to think about something in a new way, especially when it means learning to accept that something that once was a threat isn’t a danger any longer. Many people, it appears, simply aren’t willing to put forth the mental effort. It’s easier to just pick up a rock (verbal or actual) and throw it.

[Guest]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:25 PM, Cutedelicategay said:

I have a pig friend who likes to boast about his pig encounters. However off late a lot of guys are refusing to fuck him bareback even when he is on Prep and adheres to the daily routine. He didn't even take a prep holiday during the pandemic when he has less encounters. Remember we are in Canada where the society is still not prepared to take progressive stand despite political BS. What could be the reason? Is this the trend at other places as well? 

@Cutedelicategay...I apologize because I may have missed a response to these questions...
- How do you know guys are "refusing" to fuck him bareback?
- If true then has he, you, or anyone else  asked one or many of these guys their impression of the encounter and any reasons?

@fskn...Thank you for all you've done in your volunteer work. I remember training to help those with HIV and AIDS in San Francisco at the Shanti organization. Doing training and support for years, and for free, is that never ending job that can drive you insane as new people come along monthly, weekly, and daily.

It is annoying to have to explain sexuality, sexual actions, and protection on social apps, to adults, for what should have been taught in high school. The apps and websites are both social and hookup in nature so you're going to get newbies, ever single year for the rest of our lives.

For everyone...You may be doing a huge disservice by implying or saying...
- If you don't fuck a lot then you (probably) don't need to be  on a PreP regiment.
- The right way to do PreP is by having lab work every 3 months. If you're not then you're not doing it right.

Add to those two statements the words ignorant or ignorance and you have the recipe for disinformation.
The only answer or statement anyone should be giving on the PreP topic is Have you talked to your doctor, and what did they say?

Wrapping it up (not that wrap)... Refusing to fuck...They kicked me out of a room... Being down in the weeds of these thoughts, even drinking the toxic Kook-aid myself one too many times, is stupid.  

I have a feeling moving up and out of the weeds, to that 10,000 (higher intelligent) level, shows how boring sex is with those who have their exclusion lists (i.e. the unwritten unspoken list of not-my-preferences.) 

p.s. I'm not a doctor but while at a meeting with doctors about Prep I said the following...

Excuse me, Do you have these same concerns for each young woman who begins to take birth control?  What if they forget to make their appointments?  What if they miss a dose? What if their little brothers substitute tic-taks for the pill?  I don't know, I don't see the difference between prescribing Birth-control pills to women and prescribing PreP to guys. 

I didn't win a Pulitzer in medicine for my clinical comparison, and I was schooled one can destroy the liver and the other does not.
I did get a lot of Nice job. back pats.  Seems I reminded them of their bias towards treating men, and specifically gay men, compared to how they prescribe and treat others.

[ErosWired]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:03 PM, StickyWetHole said:

The only answer or statement anyone should be giving on the PreP topic is Have you talked to your doctor, and what did they say?

This assumes that doctors always say the right things, for the right reasons, without any personal or cultural bias or professional presumption. Yet we know this is not always true. By your own account, your conversations with doctors have sometimes involved questioning whether they have fully considered the matters they advise their patients about. Not all of them have.

Are there conservative/moralist doctors who would discourage a patient from starting PrEP because they believe it promotes sexual promiscuity? You bet there are - just like there are still (!) people in professional counseling positions that will try to steer a gay man into “conversion therapy”. So the idea that the only thing any of us should be saying or asking about PrEP is “Are you following your doctor’s advice?” doesn’t strike me as universally helpful.

 It also overlooks two things: The power of peer influence in guiding behavior, and the need for each of us to act on our own behalf to ensure that our collective sexual arena remains as safe as possible for everyone participating in it. It’s not enough to say, “It’s my body, so all that matters is my decision about what to do with it.” Not exactly - your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. A person can be as irresponsible about his sexual health as he wants, ethically, right up to the point that he decides to fuck someone; after that, he’s irresponsible toward someone else too.

Many years ago when still in college I went to see a doctor on campus for some ailment for which the examination required me to remove my underwear. The doctor, a middle-aged man of Middle-Eastern origin, took a look at my pubes, which I had trimmed, and chastised me for trimming them. “Don’t cut them,” he told me firmly. No explanation, just a Doctor’s Order. If he had been concerned that I wasn’t keeping my testicles warm enough for a healthy sperm count, I might have given him some credit, but this was clearly all about Disapproval. Not only did I ignore that, I didn’t go back to him again. He clearly had an issue. Did I talk to my doctor and what did he say? Yes, yes I did - and what he said wasn’t worth listening to.

A person should consult his doctor about his PrEP decision - and then weigh that advice with the other important sources of information and advice he can get...including his own conscience.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

This assumes that doctors always say the right things

I completely agree with you. They do not always say the right thing, or the most current thing. 
I still stand firm on my statement  though none of us should offer what we know without making others go talk to their doctors first and each time.
When they go ask doctors first then they get information from that doctor and we will say again And what did they say?

This time we get information we may not have had ourselves that we then go back and question our own doctors with Hey I heard...

And when we ask And what did they say?  we then hold as much influence over the patients decisions as the doctor do.

Especially when we find out the doctor told the patient...
HIV? Don't worry about that. It only effects <blank> men because they do x, y, z. 
Our responses would be/should be Get the fuck out of that practice now.  

And i have gotten friends out of practices after hearing about the bull shit they were being served.
No doctor does the following but a lot agree they should...
Like all things with the number 3, patients do their best when the three legs supporting them are working with no problems (no not your dicks too.)

1. Physical
Duh this is why we see them. The physical machine is broken or breaking. It even gives birth to Bizzaro Doctors called Lawyers.

2. Mental/Emotional
Some of these issues are I can't sleep at night these days or I'm worried.... they don't have to fix it, they should monitor and escalate it.

3. Financial
Honey look at these medical bills. Oh what will we do? I can give back my bionic penis. The hell you will! Major Steve Amazing isn't leaving this house."
You and the doctor discuss having the procedure or testing. The doctor orders the tests. Imagine going to dinner with a doctor and you delegate to them Order for us doc. You know what we like.  A great meal was had and you get your bill, it's 2,000 a couple. That's nothing to the doc who never knew the prices of the lobsters, which were shipped in from Maine every hour, were on the expensive end.
They should know, they choose to not know and blame it on too much work. You would not let them order at a restaurant for you and hand you a bill, why are you allowing them to order anything else and hand you a bill?  This is usually the first reason I pull friends out of practices. Unnecessary cost of a test or procedure versus unnecessary testing or procedures being performed.  Big difference.

Summary:
Hold them accountable. What did your doctor say?  or What does your doctor say about or think about....x?
Hold each other accountable. Did you ask your doctor? I shouldn't and I'm not going to answer any questions until you have asked them first.

Gotta go. Monday is prostate testing day at the health system and I love pretending to be a doctor on these day's.

[fskn]

Yes, people interested in HIV PrEP should see a doctor for professional advice.

In evaluating what they read online, they should be careful to distinguish empirical data (good), anecdote (suspect) and speculation (useless). Even empirical data require interpretation, which may require specialized knowledge.

For example, in a thread about PrEP side effects, a well-intentioned poster responded to an anecdotal report of a severe side effect by looking up Gilead's consumer Web site for Truvada, which says that headaches are the most common side effect. The person didn't report the percentage (quite low), and didn't realize that, in medical studies, side effects are grouped by severity. Debilitating headaches are decidedly not a common — let alone the most common — side effect of Truvada. Other posters compared PrEP and PEP (or speculated), under the incorrect assumption that HIV PEP stands for some uniform drug regimen.

As important as it is to see a medical doctor, I believe that prospective and current PrEP users should also acquaint themselves with the CDC PrEP guidelines (or local equivalent, for people outside the US).

For example, if you read the guidelines, you'll know that an at-risk gay man should receive HIV and STI testing at least every three months. I have seen examples of PrEP users — and PrEP providers — who are lax about that. The CDC guidelines follow directly from empirical data. The CDC publishes materials at all levels, from brochures to the written guidelines to the "provider supplement". If you're interested, revisions are available for review and public comment right now. They cover intermittent dosing ("2-1-1") and anticipate longer-acting injectable HIV PrEP drugs (already approved in the US as an HIV treatment option, a very exciting development!).