When Does ‘Sex Work’ Stop Being ‘Sex’ and Srart Being ‘Work’?

[drscorpio]

Moderator's Note: This discussion has been fine so far. Out of an abundance of caution, please review the link below before you take it in any new direction. 

 

[partying.hard]

My participation in that business never was work. It simply was a kink of mine.

I participated in both sides. I didn’t need the money, but it turned me on that a guy was willing to pay me to fuck with him. And I’ve never needed to pay to get laid, but I thought it was hot to shell out some cash to have someone get into my bed. 

[tallslenderguy]

20 minutes ago, partying.hard said:

My participation in that business never was work. It simply was a kink of mine.

I participated in both sides. I didn’t need the money, but it turned me on that a guy was willing to pay me to fuck with him. And I’ve never needed to pay to get laid, but I thought it was hot to shell out some cash to have someone get into my bed. 

This makes sense to me, even though i do not relate.  i've got a history where a relationship saw and treated me like a paycheck, and it fucked with my sensibilities about money and (what i perceive as) intimacy. But i realize that's me. i believe they're a guys on both sides of the dynamic that get off on things like findom, for instance. i could never connect in that way, but it doesn't make what they have any less valid in my mind, i don't have to participate.  i think morality fails when one makes their ego/ethnocentric notions an authority over others. Sure, society has to have laws, but laws can go too far. "Sodomy" used to be a felony in the US. 

While we all have similarities, we are all individual, different. Processing out of fundamentalist religious conditioning permanently burned me out on the notion of absolute, universal notions. For whatever reason, you are wired this way and as far as i'm concerned, if you get pleasure this  way, awesome. i've got plenty of kinks that do not aline with other guys, no biggie. We connect where we can, and don't try and force is where there isn't a connecting place. 

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

As to  your reframed question? i can see it going either way, but that's just one guys point of view. To me, what you describe can be a form of barter. You provide a service in exchange for the opportunity to do a job "well."  my take is there is more to it than that, that you derive physical pleasure from getting fucked, emotional pleasure from being desired, but that's speculation on my part.

i do imagine there are paid sex workers who get both physical and emotional pleasure from their work to some degree, even if it's not a primary factor. That there are some who would do it ongoing for money alone? Idk, i think that's a hard one to parse out. Would the same guy have sex with a woman for money? No? Why? Because they are not sexually attracted to women? So now "attraction" becomes a factor in addition to money.  i don't think it's a question with a simple, black or white (or static) answer. 

And I think you’re probably right. Especially taking into account @partying.hard’s following reply, it seems pretty clear to me now that, in both cases, sometimes it is work, and sometimes it isn’t, to varying degrees. I try to treat it as a ‘service’, performed to a high standard; whether it’s a professional standard is more than I know.

The whole question does, however, have implications about whether the term whore actually applies to me. Last night, a guy seeing my ad on Sniffies, contacted me with, “Wow! You really are a cum whore!”

[ErosWired]

3 hours ago, NWUSHorny said:

Maybe I'm not as desperate for sex as my posts indicate, because even here in Portland I have walked away from encounters where I was offered cash to "fuck me with that big dick," even though I would have fucked him for free, as readily as I walk away from encounters that have asked for cash or "generosity" of any sort.

Last night a guy showed me the pics of his large cock and asked if I was going to let him breed my ass, which, of course. Then he adds, “Oh, and I have chlamydia, but you won’t get anything and most guys are fine with it.”

🤨

When I explained that I would not be willing to put myself or anyone who fucked me afterward at risk, he said, “You sure? Because I’ll just breed somebody else instead.”

I operate to standards, many of which are directly geared to protecting the interests of the men I serve. I don’t refuse a man’s basic request for the use of my body, but I do refuse certain scenarios that will degrade the outcome.

[SpectreAgent]

51 minutes ago, partying.hard said:

My participation in that business never was work. It simply was a kink of mine.

I participated in both sides. I didn’t need the money, but it turned me on that a guy was willing to pay me to fuck with him. And I’ve never needed to pay to get laid, but I thought it was hot to shell out some cash to have someone get into my bed. 

I think I’ve told the story on here before of a guy I hooked up with in Greenwich, London. It was the days of telephone ads and pre-apps. After our first meeting, he put some money in my hand - about £80, which was a lot back then. Thinking he’d misunderstood the terms of our meeting, I told him I didn’t expect anything in return, but he insisted I take it. It dawned on me that he got off in treating me like a paid whore. I was conflicted about it at first but rationalised it wasn’t for me to judge. I saw him a few times after that, not for the money but because he was fit. And each time the £80 was handed over. I put it to the massive phone bill I’d run up on the chat lines!  

[ErosWired]

36 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

but I do refuse certain scenarios that will degrade the outcome.

I should clarify that by ’degrade the outcome’ I mean ‘make someone regret fucking me’ or worse, ‘make someone end up in need of a doctor’.

[NWUSHorny]

35 minutes ago, ErosWired said:

Last night a guy showed me the pics of his large cock and asked if I was going to let him breed my ass, which, of course. Then he adds, “Oh, and I have chlamydia, but you won’t get anything and most guys are fine with it.”

🤨

When I explained that I would not be willing to put myself or anyone who fucked me afterward at risk, he said, “You sure? Because I’ll just breed somebody else instead.”

I operate to standards, many of which are directly geared to protecting the interests of the men I serve. I don’t refuse a man’s basic request for the use of my body, but I do refuse certain scenarios that will degrade the outcome

Wow, I guess it really isn't that different from the HIV "gift givers". I can't even comprehend fantasizing about it let alone actually knowing spreading diseases.

[Kayne]

Here is my Big Dumb Jock  Perspective - as Former Sex Worker.

First, I won't disclose when I started, or when it ended, just to protect the integrity of the site rules and certain sensibilities, especially when terms of age, consent and autonomy are brought to bear.

now on to the question.

Understand that as humans, we are always paying ourselves first. And no, It doesn't matter that happens. That self payment can be to provide a basic need, such as food, clothing or shelter. Or that self payment could be in the form of an ego boost. It could be a physical or emotional high one is chasing. There are many other ways, but suffice it to say that no one does anything without  getting something tangible for themselves. This is not something that comes from others. this part is between you and yourself.

With that understood, Sex Work became " Work" for me when, I was forced into an encounter I didn't want, If I had a client that I had to "pretend" to be into, If was in a situation in which I was not having fun, or feeling gratified, When I was in a situation where I felt unsafe or afraid, If I had to perform acts that I was not into. 

That was when the monetary renunciation compensated for whatever caused me to feel obligated, or that it was a "job"

Also remember that the exchange of "something of Value" need not include "legal Tender" its anything one Values. A cumslut that Values Sperm, is paid. Housewives that relieve food, shelter, and pearls from fucking their husband's are paid. The dude that will Fuck the Chicago Bulls for and autographed trophy has been paid. 

and why is that? Because we define what is of value, and a monetary vue can be assigned to absolutely anything if you try hard enough. so that one doesn't take "money"  Is not truly relevant. 

[London1281955]

I have been paid sometimes to get fucked but i have never asked and so I don’t see myself as a sex worker.. I would have let him fuck me anyway.

Also sometimes I have looked on Grindr in advance of going to a city and have accepted nights of free accommodation and drinks for sex - I don’t see as a sex worker as I would not do with a guy I don’t want in me..

[slaveboi]

I am guessing its work when they have to do things they normally wouldn't just to get paid. I know a few porn performers that always end up doing stuff they don't want just to make a paycheck.  I know one girl that was a total girl on girl star. She hates cock. When times get tough she will do throat fucking scenes just for money. She hates it. 

[inactive]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:05 AM, Kayne said:

Here is my Big Dumb Jock  Perspective - as Former Sex Worker.

First, I won't disclose when I started, or when it ended, just to protect the integrity of the site rules and certain sensibilities, especially when terms of age, consent and autonomy are brought to bear.

now on to the question.

Understand that as humans, we are always paying ourselves first. And no, It doesn't matter that happens. That self payment can be to provide a basic need, such as food, clothing or shelter. Or that self payment could be in the form of an ego boost. It could be a physical or emotional high one is chasing. There are many other ways, but suffice it to say that no one does anything without  getting something tangible for themselves. This is not something that comes from others. this part is between you and yourself.

With that understood, Sex Work became " Work" for me when, I was forced into an encounter I didn't want, If I had a client that I had to "pretend" to be into, If was in a situation in which I was not having fun, or feeling gratified, When I was in a situation where I felt unsafe or afraid, If I had to perform acts that I was not into. 

That was when the monetary renunciation compensated for whatever caused me to feel obligated, or that it was a "job"

Also remember that the exchange of "something of Value" need not include "legal Tender" its anything one Values. A cumslut that Values Sperm, is paid. Housewives that relieve food, shelter, and pearls from fucking their husband's are paid. The dude that will Fuck the Chicago Bulls for and autographed trophy has been paid. 

and why is that? Because we define what is of value, and a monetary vue can be assigned to absolutely anything if you try hard enough. so that one doesn't take "money"  Is not truly relevant. 

Equivalent experience here. Except Sex Work never really became "work" for me, toughest experiences just helped me to push further my kinks and lower my standards (yes, I still have some).

For me, the main difference between being a (former) prostitute or a free cumdump is not on my side but on the side of the clients/users. Their behavior and espectations can really differ.

[ErosWired]

6 hours ago, CumdumpTlse said:

For me, the main difference between being a (former) prostitute or a free cumdump is not on my side but on the side of the clients/users. Their behavior and espectations can really differ.

Could you elaborate on that? I had wondered whether the fact that someone had paid gave them a sense of entitlement that they otherwise might not have felt, or a sense that the person providing the service had certain obligations that might or might not have been spelled out.

 I also wondered if the fact that someone paid tended to make them place a higher value on the sex they received, or view it as automatically higher quality than service they would get from a free cumdump. People do tend to under-value things that have little or no cost.

[EuRawBull]

Here's my take from various personal perspectives:

1. If you are having sex, as a top, bottom or versa, for your pure pleasure without any obligation or necessity, you can say it's just the "work" you put in to realise that desire or self-gratification you are looking for.

2. If you are having sex, and you have to PAY for sex, then you are in the position of a client / customer. The sweat you are willing to put into that activity is largely determined by you as a paying customer. That in itself, could be referred to in coloquial terms as 'work".

3. If you are providing sexual services, out of obligation or necessity, that is largely sex-work. We can call ourselves, sex-workers, erotic or adult entertainers, escorts or whatever. Heart of the activity remains that providing sexual services in exchange for money is work.

4. There are cases where a sex-worker / escort will do it just for the fun of it. That is less of a "work" and more of a "kink". I met a few disgustingly rich and handsome men who were charging $100 just for the fun of it. The fact that they could refuse anyone they didn't like means that they were after the thrill of the role playing and not after the actual money. And, no, they would never claim that they "worked".

Now, let me be clear: I always had the final say if I undertake that job or not. It is ultimately up to me if I want to perform said acts or not. However, knowing that the money I make from that job will pay for my food and shelter bill for a few days, than Yes, I will most likely put aside my like or dislike of how the customer looks like or treats me. Naturally, there are boundaries which every escort (or sex-worker) will put up. These may be very low or very high and anywhere in-between. Some don't like to be called names. Some don't like men of certain cultural or ethnical background, etc. Same goes for the services: if I agree to top, I better deliver and fuck as hard or as gentle as the client demands. If the client wants to fuck my ass, I will make the limits known beforehand, e.g. no blood, no dirty. If the client says I want PnP than I say, Thank you for your interest. I wish you good luck however I am not your man. 

IF, the guy who pays me happens to be a one that I like and we have a good time, than that is awesome. Makes my day, same way you get in the office a good day at work. 

In a nutshell, if you can just get up and leave without any financial consequences, than that's pleasure. If you get paid for sex and you don't like what is being asked of you than you can negotiate or leave. It is basically knowing your financial comfort zone. 

And in the escorting world, my friends, there is P&L just like in any other business: sometimes you gotta take a loss. Be it a jerk who funbles with paying and hoping he can get a free ride after all, or someone sending you to an address as a prank. It's part of the game.

As for you @ErosWired, being a man who likes having sex and craving sex, for free, it's not work. However, if you decide to ask for money, or make it clear upfront that you will only entertain certain gentlemen callers if they pay you, that will make it sex-work. 

However, I think the crux of the issue lies somewhere else: I think you are wondering if you are not lowering your self-esteem too much by having sex with a very large range of men. In my opinion the asnwer is No. You are looking for self-gratification and you learned from past experiences that a cock is a cock, and if it's hard and gets in the ass,, even better.  I personally also have a wide range of interests in men, and it all depends on my mood. No matter if I bottom or top, if I work or not, I am the one who's ultimately in charge and I decide the limits.  I had nights in clubs at large parties where I was in the sling being fucked by a very large number of men (no, they don't always cum), and being called a cum-whore, slut, useless faggot, dirty sow (sounds better in German lol), etc. But at no point I felt degraded or that it was work. Because I am the once establishing the limits. 

I also, in the past, had a very demanding client who went aggressive beyond my limits. Although that was work, I decided that I will file that day under the Loss column, and left the room.  Had the money not been exchanged in the first place, I would have not entertained not even the first few minutes of the encounter. But as soon as the border was crossed, the warning applied and not heeded, I left the room. and for those wondering, Yes, I actually kept the money. As a penalty to the customer for breaking the terms of agreement. So that!  And one more thing: as a sex worker you demand and you get paid upfront, not after. You learn that pretty fast and early in your career LOL

 

[ErosWired]

4 hours ago, EuRawBull said:

3. If you are providing sexual services, out of obligation or necessity, that is largely sex-work. We can call ourselves, sex-workers, erotic or adult entertainers, escorts or whatever. Heart of the activity remains that providing sexual services in exchange for money is work.

[…]

As for you @ErosWired, being a man who likes having sex and craving sex, for free, it's not work. However, if you decide to ask for money, or make it clear upfront that you will only entertain certain gentlemen callers if they pay you, that will make it sex-work. 

However, I think the crux of the issue lies somewhere else: I think you are wondering if you are not lowering your self-esteem too much by having sex with a very large range of men. In my opinion the asnwer is No. You are looking for self-gratification and you learned from past experiences that a cock is a cock, and if it's hard and gets in the ass,, even better. 

It would seem that your take on it, having done it for pay, is that it is only work if money is involved, because money is the reason that there is either an obligation or a necessity to perform.

But the money isn’t what drives a prostitute - the motivation is a need or desire of some sort. The money is simply the means to meet whatever that need or desire might be, whether it be food or shelter, or the next drug fix, or an education, or a car, or whatever. We read often about people who exchange themselves sexually directly for such things as drugs, without being paid money; surely this is a form of self-prostitution. What do we make of a young man who supplies his ass in lieu of rent? Is he not settling his obligation?

Your analysis of my personal motivation is inaccurate, and assumes that I approach the matter a) as a person in search of sexual self-gratification, and b) as someone questioning his self-image on the basis of his promiscuity. Both assumptions are mistaken.

I was trained, extensively and systematically, to be a sexual service submissive for men. This was not casual play, it was Pavlovian-based experimental psychological entrainment, and it was both effective and successful. When I say that I feel an obligation to provide my body to men, I mean precisely that - my training compels me, strongly, to perform, even when I do not feel like it, am not attracted to the person, do not enjoy the sexual act, or even must endure pain and great discomfort to see it through. It isn’t a question in my mind like Do I need the money badly enough to do this?, but rather the thought: This is your duty. You have to do this.

I have no issues with my self-esteem in this regard. I am proud of the service I provide, and I do it well. I believe I am meant to serve in this way, so I feel no moralistic ambivalence over my promiscuity.

I do, however, feel strongly obligated to perform, for the reasons explained. The need behind the obligation is not physical in the sense of food or shelter, but psychological, yet just as real and just as compelling. It is not play, it is the performance of acts, sometimes unpleasant, to meet a driving need, at the same time providing a service of value to others. We know it has value because it is a service men might pay another man to obtain. If two men each cut down a tree and saw it into lumber, and one man sells his lumber while the other gives his away, did the second man do no work? The calluses on his hands are the same as the first man’s.

 I respect your perspective as one who has experience in that facet of the question, but I’m not sure I’m persuaded by it.