Is it safe to mix poppers, weed and alcohol?

[tallslenderguy]

To hopefully remove confusion from some of the exchanges above. As indicated from evidence based sources cited above, poppers are vasodilators, so are ED meds.  ED meds were accidentally discovered as a side effect. Meds like VIagra (PDE5 inhibitors) were originally being researched as anti angina meds (heart pain resulting from lack of blood flow to the heart).  Research discovered that PDE5 inhibitors are vasodilators have a more specific effect on penis and lungs. The use of the word "specific" in medications can be misleading, it does not mean exclusive.  In the medical field, we often end up using drugs developed for one purpose on a different medical issue because the 'side effect' of the drug can end up benefiting another disease process. The systems in our body are intricate and interconnected, thus my original post of this not  being a "simple question with a black or white answer."  

This thread is about what's "safe," and whee this can be more of a black and white answer: Amyl and butyl nitrates (poppers) are vasodilators originally used medically as an anti angina med. ED meds, while having a more specific effect on the erectile function of the penis, are also a vasodilators.  Using ED meds alone doesn't generally pose risk. Using them along with Poppers (or other nitrates some people with heart issues may be taking)  results in a combination of vasodilators that can be dangerous. That's less common, but it's not unusual for the general gay population to be using ED drugs and poppers. 

"The effects of using amyl nitrite with other drugs – including over-the-counter or prescribed medications – can be unpredictable and dangerous.

Amyl nitrite + Viagra or other erectile dysfunction medications: a high risk that the person will lose consciousness due to a sudden and extreme drop in blood pressure.12 This may require immediate medical attention .

Amyl nitrite + amphetamines: increased strain on the heart, placing whole body under extra stress.12"

[think before following links] https://adf.org.au/drug-facts/amyl-nitrite/

[BB-Hnh-Cumdump]

I absolutely adooore the weed and poppers combo. It's fucking amazing and I loose every shred of inhibitions and do anything haha 

[BootmanLA]

5 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

"The blood vessels in your body aren’t just tubes that stay the same size all the time. Blood vessels also contain muscle, and that muscle controls just how wide or narrow your blood vessels are at any given time. When blood vessels get wider, that’s vasodilation. The opposite process, when blood vessels constrict and get narrower, is called vasoconstriction."

[think before following links] [think before following links] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23352-vasodilation

I think maybe I'm not communicating my point.

"Vasodilator" is a specific, defined kind of drug. Broadly speaking, the key is that they dilate ALL the veins in the body; it's what they're designed to do, as a means of (among other things) regulating blood pressure. "Vasodilator" is a term used for drugs that affect *systemic vasculature* - the blood vessels of the entire body. THAT IS WHAT THE TERM MEANS, pharmacologically. 

There are other drugs, like the ED drugs Cialis and Viagra (and generics) that can cause SOME vasodilation. In fact, the reason they work without dropping your blood pressure across your body is that they target something in the tissues of the penis (and lungs - the only places where these tissues contain enough of this chemical (Phosphodiesterase Type 5, or PDE5) to be effective. They do NOT have an effect on systemic vasculature and that is why they're not classified as vasodilators.

It's absolutely correct to say they dilate *particular* blood vessels (or rather, keep them from constricting). It's NOT correct to call them vasodilators, because that term has a specific medical, pharmacological meaning.

As a comparison: I write some software code, professionally, as part of my job. That, however, does not make me a "writer" - a term which we understand to have a more specific meaning linked to literature, fiction, non-fiction, essays, and poety - but not to computer code. Calling us "writers" confuses the issue, even though we undoubtedly "write" stuff.

That's what calling a PDE5 inihibitor a "vasodilator" does - it confuses the issue, because "vasodilator" has a more specific meaning.

[chargedodger]

Yes it Is dangerous as it causes cum to magically appear in ones asshole.:)

[tallslenderguy]

20 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

I *believe* the vasodilation is an indirect effect from the relaxation of the muscles around them, rather than a direct expansion of the veins themselves (ie a true vasodilator).

I think maybe I'm not communicating my point.

"Vasodilator" is a specific, defined kind of drug. Broadly speaking, the key is that they dilate ALL the veins in the body; it's what they're designed to do, as a means of (among other things) regulating blood pressure. "Vasodilator" is a term used for drugs that affect *systemic vasculature* - the blood vessels of the entire body. THAT IS WHAT THE TERM MEANS, pharmacologically. 

That's what calling a PDE5 inihibitor a "vasodilator" does - it confuses the issue, because "vasodilator" has a more specific meaning.

To me, you are doing a more than adequate job of communicating your point.  i dispute is your correcting me for calling PDE5's a vasodilator. In that case, you are simply wrong.  Your correction is incorrect. It all feels pretty silly and pedantic to me. 

Regardless of what you (or i) may "believe," the medical/pharmacological community does consider PDE5 inhibitors to be vasodilators (see evidence below). 

 i'm not making this up, offering belief or opinion, nor am i interpreting. i am purposefully quoting and providing links to reliable sources.

Here's one more source: The National Library of Medicine list of "Vasodilators." (their heading, not mine).  They list 8 different kinds of "Vasodilators."  Scroll down to number 8.  If you still want to argue this, perhaps send your argument to The National Library of Medicine, they'd likely do a better job explaining their rationale for listing PDE5 as a vasodilator than i can.

"1.  Direct-acting vasodilators (hydralazine, minoxidil, nitrates, nitroprusside)

2.  Calcium channel blockers (verapamil, diltiazem, nifedipine, amlodipine)

3.  An antagonist of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (angiotensin receptor blockers, angiotensin-converting-enzyme inhibitors)

4.  Beta-2 receptor agonist (salbutamol, terbutaline)

5.  Postsynaptic alpha-1 receptor antagonist (prazosin, phenoxybenzamine, phentolamine)

6.  Centrally acting alpha-2 receptor agonist (clonidine, α-methyldopa)

7.  Endothelin receptor antagonist (bosentan, ambrisentan)

8.  Phosphodiesterase inhibitors (sildenafil, tadalafil)"

[think before following links] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK554423/

 

 

[BootmanLA]

48 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

Here's one more source: The National Library of Medicine list of "Vasodilators." (their heading, not mine).  They list 8 different kinds of "Vasodilators."  Scroll down to number 8.  If you still want to argue this, perhaps send your argument to The National Library of Medicine, they'd likely do a better job explaining their rationale for listing PDE5 as a vasodilator than i can.

And if you read through that article, aside from that passing mention that they are "vasodilators" in the lower-case, generic sense (and not in the Upper-Case, specific, treatment-for-hypertension-and-heart-conditions sense), there isn't a single other mention of PDE5 inhibitors.

Not in the section on Indications (where the drug may be useful for treatment), even though the indications for different types of vasodilators are outlined.

Not in the section on Mechanism of Action (how they work; because their effect is very limited to particular parts of the body), even though the mechanism of other types of vasodilators is outlined.

Not in the section on Administration (how to give the medication), even though the method used for PDE5's (oral administration) is covered for other drugs.

Not in the section on Adverse Effects (what can go wrong with them), even though the adverse effects are listed by the other classes of vasodilators.

Not in the section on Contraindications (when they should not be used), even though contraindications are listed by the other classes of vasodilators.

Not in the section on Monitoring (how to keep tabs on their effects), even though vasodilators are well-known for requiring regular monitoring.

Not in the section on Toxicity (at what level/to what extent are the drugs harmful themselves), even though toxicity is analyzed by category of vasodilator.

Not in the section on Enhancing Team Outcomes.

In other words, you found a passing reference to PDE5's in a paper about vasodilators (because they have a limited form of that effect) and from that, you extrapolate somehow that this is the category of drugs in which they belong (which is simply not true).

In actuality, if you do a little research, there are plenty of listings of interactions BETWEEN "vasodilators" (as a class term) and the various kinds of ED drugs out there. If they were simply another kind of vasodilator, they wouldn't be listed that way. By default, the assumption is that ANY two drugs in the same class require checking/monitoring for interactions; you don't specify a group of drugs in the same general class for interaction monitoring because the *assumption* from the start is that you don't go on two drugs that do the same basic thing unless there's a specific, articulable reason to do so in a particular case.

[tallslenderguy]

3 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

 

In other words, you found a passing reference to PDE5's in a paper about vasodilators (because they have a limited form of that effect) and from that, you extrapolate somehow that this is the category of drugs in which they belong (which is simply not true).

 

Your  response strikes me as a deflection from the fact that an NIH ongoing medical education paper identifies PDE5's as vasodilators.  You argue eloquently but don't provide substantiation for your assertion that "It's NOT correct to call them vasodilators, because that term has a specific medical, pharmacological meaning."  The National Institute of Health disagrees with you. So far, you have cited nothing, just assertions, speculations and extrapolations based on what you have apparently read.  Your arguments almost always impress me, and i'd happily suck your cock 🙂,  but as someone who administers these drugs on a regular basis, i'm going to side with the NIH on this one.  

3 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

 

In actuality, if you do a little research, there are plenty of listings of interactions BETWEEN "vasodilators" (as a class term) and the various kinds of ED drugs out there. If they were simply another kind of vasodilator, they wouldn't be listed that way. By default, the assumption is that ANY two drugs in the same class require checking/monitoring for interactions; you don't specify a group of drugs in the same general class for interaction monitoring because the *assumption* from the start is that you don't go on two drugs that do the same basic thing unless there's a specific, articulable reason to do so in a particular case.

i appreciate and agree with a lot of what you say (even say as much in one of my responses). i "actually" read a lot of research and also have a great deal of experience administering drugs like vasodilators, as well as dealing with their effects in my patients. All eight of those vasodilators listed are  complex and have varied effects on individuals. Give a beta blocker or calcium channel blocker to one person (we usually give those for heart rate or dysrhythmia,  and their BP drops like a rock as a side effect. Give the same drug to another  and there will be no appreciable change in BP.   We monitor both BP though, because we don't know for sure till we try. i know of no drug that has one effect only. Human physiology is an infinite universe. We know and can affect a lot, but it's not much in the context of infinity.  When one reads my original post, one is reading my experience and frank trepidation because of all the variables.  

Yeah, i absolutely treat PDE5's as a vasodilator, and cite research how it affects other areas of the body than the penis and lungs in "normally healthy people."  Not most, and they're generally safe for their intended use.   No argument there. Are they a different class within vasodilators? Certainly, no argument.  Does the risk for heart events/hypontension resulting from the combination vasodilation effect with other drugs (like poppers) become an important factor. Yes, which is what i have asserted from the start.  Put another way, just taking poppers alone rarely results in a life threatening effect. Just taking PDE5's alone rarely result in a life results in a life threatening effect. The life threatening effect of putting them together is because of their vasodilation effect, not from a limp dick.    We don't know that PDE5's  suddenly start effecting the rest of the body because of adding, say nitrates, to the picture. We realize it because those effects become noticeable in a deleterious way.  We do know PDE5's work by prolonging the effects of cGMP, which relaxes smooth muscle tissue.

All of our vascular anatomy includes smooth muscle, smooth muscle, it's the part of the vasculature anatomy that causes vasodilation and constriction. i know of no research that demonstrates vasodilation/constriction apart from the smooth muscle encapsulating our veins and arteries. I.e., if the smooth muscle was removed, there wouldn't be a remaining 'tube' mechanism that affects BP significantly.  cGMP is all over the body and PDE5's work by prolonging cGMP that causes vasodilation. A lot of these things are still being studied.  i'm speculating here, but i can see a possible connection between combining PDE5's and nitrates because PDE5's prolong vasodilation, which typically ends pretty quickly with the effects from nitrates alone.

idk. But yeah, i see it and focus on the vasodilation effects of both of those drugs because of what that can mean in terms of hypotension and mean arterial pressure that can result in organ death. 

[Justaholeff]

I've had no problem with mixing any of these but, that's me..could be different for someone else...it's been awhile since I've mixed them but, the last time I did, well, it was wild! On my stomach getting fucked while someone held the popper bottle to my nose...then the weed kicked in and as I was riding that wave some dude literally would pull my asscrack hair with his teeth! Every pull was electric and another stud was about to cum up my butt..I hit the poppers again and I swear I could feel his heartbeat as loaded me!!! It was a crazy orgy

Edited November 11, 2023 by Justaholeff

[Everopen]

Just not a good idea to mix with viagra or similar