Unrest at the Universities

[PozBearWI]

17 hours ago, KERVORKIANjack said:

You forgot to call me a "koch-sucker"!

Of course you took care of that gap...

[BlackDude]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:52 AM, hntnhole said:

We're seeing increasingly strident unrest at many Universities/Colleges throughout the country lately, and the issue has become urgent.  

What presents as anti-"Jewish" demonstrations, is - as I see it - misplaced anger.  While the plight of the Palestinians is truly desperate and only getting worse by the day, and the perpetrators of that outrage are obviously guilty of inhumanity and worse, blaming "The Jews" is misplaced, reactionary, and poorly-thought-out - as I see it.  

The blame doesn't lie with "The Jews" - it lies with the Government of Israel, and particularly with a soulless and utterly corrupt Prime Minister, devoted only to saving his own political skin, which is a completely different issue.  He has resisted calls for elections, invents every conceivable excuse for postponing them, because he knows his "war plan" to murder as many Palestinians as possible is a crime against humanity, and not supported by a clear majority of the voting public in Israel. 

The "eye-for-an-eye" equation of antiquity has morphed, in this depraved P.M.'s limited vision, into visiting that which The Jews suffered in the last century, upon the Palestinian population, a handful of which deserve punishment, with the vast majority of these people remaining innocent of the October attack.  

I don't have any issue with students everywhere protesting the actions of the Israeli Government, steeping in it's hateful inhumanity.  I completely support Bernie Sanders in his stand against allowing one penny of US funds to be used in any way to further this atrocity against men, women, children, babies, that have in no way injured the State of Israel.  I well remember the anti-war demonstrations of the last enormous folly of US foreign policy, (when the Draft-Dodger-in-Chief's father hired a quack doctor to diagnose his worthless p.o.s. son with "bone spurs").  That greasy-headed McNamara, with his policy of "containment" is worthy only of contempt, and Westmoreland should have refused to carry out his President's orders, including the "carpet-bombing" of neighboring non-combatant countries. We're seeing parallel examples of misguided and tragic policies today in the Levant, by an equally depraved PM.

Making this distinction clear - "Jews" vs the Israeli Government - is critical to the US as well, since it is the US who is Israel's chief ally.  Anything else is nothing less than hideously Hitler-esque, and could cost a kind and decent man his re-election.  

The US government disagrees with you.

 

[think before following links] https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-campus-protests-columbia-congress-df4ba95dae844b3a8559b4b3ad7e058a

[hntnhole]

"In a letter sent to lawmakers Friday, the American Civil Liberties Union urged members to vote against the legislation, saying federal law already prohibits antisemitic discrimination and harassment.

“H.R. 6090 is therefore not needed to protect against antisemitic discrimination; instead, it would likely chill free speech of students on college campuses by incorrectly equating criticism of the Israeli government with antisemitism,” the letter stated.

Jeremy Ben-Ami, president of the centrist pro-Israel group J Street, said his organization opposes the bipartisan proposal because he sees it as an “unserious” effort led by Republicans “to continually force votes that divide the Democratic caucus on an issue that shouldn’t be turned into a political football.” 

 

While it's true that organizations such as the above-mentioned groups are not Governmental Agencies, they are never-the-less encapsulating the reasons I put forth.  I did not comment on US Governmental entities, or proposed legislation in the House.  I commented on equating actions and behavior of the current Government of Israel, in that theatre, (and in the person of that Prime Minister), with conflating the behavior of the Prime Minister with a generalization so broad as to include "The Jews". 

These are two distinct and separate behaviors.  

[PozBearWI]

The current campus unrest really doesn't make sense.  First, the Biden administration has been trying to get Israel to change their tactics to minimize or eliminate civilian casualties.  So the nagging question I have is who is riling them up; and for what end?  Could this be MAGA initiated stuff on campus?  Reports are legion that perpetrators often aren't student....

[NWUSHorny]

1 hour ago, PozBearWI said:

Could this be MAGA initiated stuff on campus?

I've wondered about that, or other newer radical orgs with financial backing from somewhere. MAGA has copied their techniques from the radical far left, we very likely will see more renewed chaos from both sides radicals.

[hntnhole]

2 hours ago, PozBearWI said:

Could this be MAGA initiated stuff on campus?

That's an interesting hypothesis - even I didn't consider that possibility.  Since the Maga folks are mostly Caucasian and "Christian", which "the other" is not, it would make sense.  

Thanks for that response.  

[PozBearWI]

8 minutes ago, hntnhole said:

That's an interesting hypothesis - even I didn't consider that possibility.  Since the Maga folks are mostly Caucasian and "Christian", which "the other" is not, it would make sense.  

Thanks for that response.  

And yet the theme of Charlotte was anti Semitism.  The "many fine people on both sides" ones 

[PozBearWI]

I was coming of age during the 1960's; and the unrest on campus was more about the US governments active involvement in Viet Nam.

Current events have a 60's feel to them but that lead me to the question "why are they up in arms over Biden and not both Hamas and Israel?"  It isn't Biden's war any more than Ukraine is Biden's war.  I am pretty happy "grandpa Joe" decided to hold off shipping as long as Bebe proceeds into Rafah.  One would think the protesters would see that as a victory; and yet???  When authorities "get to them" often "they" are not students at all.  We've seen this playbook before....

 

[BlackDude]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:16 AM, BlackDude said:

The US government disagrees with you.

 

[think before following links] [think before following links] https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-campus-protests-columbia-congress-df4ba95dae844b3a8559b4b3ad7e058a

The article says:

 

“If passed by the Senate and signed into law, the bill would broaden the legal definition of antisemitism to include the “targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.”
 

 

[BootmanLA]

On 5/5/2024 at 4:50 PM, KERVORKIANjack said:

You forgot to call me a "koch-sucker"!

No, I did not. I never intended to use such an epithet for you. If I had, you can rest assured I would have.

[BootmanLA]

3 minutes ago, BlackDude said:

The article says:

“If passed by the Senate and signed into law, the bill would broaden the legal definition of antisemitism to include the “targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity.”
 

That "if" is a mighty big "if". As in "IF". The reality, of course, is that such a bill is unlikely to even be brought up in the Senate, much less passed, and even less to be signed into law.

[BlackDude]

28 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

That "if" is a mighty big "if". As in "IF". The reality, of course, is that such a bill is unlikely to even be brought up in the Senate, much less passed, and even less to be signed into law.

My question was about the separation or connection of Israel and the Jewish community. 

 Whether the bill is passed or not, it’s still a question of people perceive Israel and Jewish people, so much so, out government attempted to codify the relationship. 

[BootmanLA]

1 minute ago, BlackDude said:

My question was about the separation or connection of Israel and the Jewish community. 

 Whether the bill is passed or not, it’s still a question of people perceive Israel and Jewish people, so much so, out government attempted to codify the relationship. 

"Our government" (in a general sense) did no such thing. The U.S. House (which is one half of one branch of the US government) passed a bill that did something else entirely.

What the proposed law in question does is codify (in Civil Rights Act of 1964) the definition of anti-Semitism used internally by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. That definition reads as follows:

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

Note that there is no mention of the word "Israel" or the phrase "government of Israel" in that definition, whatsoever.

The law goes on to incorporate the IHRA's "contemporary examples of antisemitism", but none of those examples "codifies" the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. It's simply false to say that they do.

Now, one may argue whether that's an accurate or good enough definition of anti-Semitism; that's a reasonable debate to have. And one may say that this, or that, example of antisemitism shouldn't be considered as such, and that, too, is a reasonable debate to have. But it's false - provably, demonstrably false - that this law "codifies" any sort of relationship between the United States and Israel. For one thing, that's a huge separation of powers problem; the president, not Congress, is given the power to recognize foreign governments. See Zivotosky v. Kerry, in which the Supreme Court held that the power of the president to recognize foreign nations is exclusive (ie that Congress cannot interfere with it).

[BlackDude]

5 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

"Our government" (in a general sense) did no such thing. The U.S. House (which is one half of one branch of the US government) passed a bill that did something else entirely.

What the proposed law in question does is codify (in Civil Rights Act of 1964) the definition of anti-Semitism used internally by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. That definition reads as follows:

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

Note that there is no mention of the word "Israel" or the phrase "government of Israel" in that definition, whatsoever.

The law goes on to incorporate the IHRA's "contemporary examples of antisemitism", but none of those examples "codifies" the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. It's simply false to say that they do.

Now, one may argue whether that's an accurate or good enough definition of anti-Semitism; that's a reasonable debate to have. And one may say that this, or that, example of antisemitism shouldn't be considered as such, and that, too, is a reasonable debate to have. But it's false - provably, demonstrably false - that this law "codifies" any sort of relationship between the United States and Israel. For one thing, that's a huge separation of powers problem; the president, not Congress, is given the power to recognize foreign governments. See Zivotosky v. Kerry, in which the Supreme Court held that the power of the president to recognize foreign nations is exclusive (ie that Congress cannot interfere with it).

So the war sparked the need for a bill. However, me even connecting Jewish people to Israel is anti Semitic by their definition: 

 

[think before following links] [think before following links] [think before following links] https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

Oh, a few more things in that definition:

”Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”

”Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor..”

If it’s separate, why use “Israeli policy?”

I don’t have a dog in the fight either way. Just sparking conversation….

Edited May 10 by BlackDude

[nanana]

On 4/30/2024 at 12:07 AM, BlackDude said:

Are there any Jewish people or organizations speaking out against the Israeli government?

Look up Norman Finkelstein ([think before following links] http://www.normanfinkelstein.com); Marjorie Feld ([think before following links] https://jwa.org/blog/author/marjorie-n-feld); Ilana Mercer ([think before following links] https://www.lewrockwell.com/2024/05/ilana-mercer/sad-to-say-but-by-the-numbers-israeli-society-is-systemically-sociopathic/; [think before following links] https://www.ilanamercer.com/biographical/); and Naomi Wolf ([think before following links] https://naomiwolf.substack.com/p/please-calm-down); among many many Jews who hold (but also many Jews who do not hold, as is not unique to Jews but sadly typical of a large segment of the world's tribes) all life as being sacred.