iBlastInside just threatened to sue me over BBBH.com

[rawTOP]

A few days ago when my purchase of BBBH.com was looking pretty final I reached out to iBlastInside (aka Mark Benson) and told him about the purchase and asked how he'd like to be involved in the new site, etc. The initial exchanges were pretty positive - he offered me the use of his member database from bbbh.iblastinside.com for marketing the new site, etc. Everything seemed good…

…until today when he deleted the buddy link with me on BBRT and then wrote me an email in which he told me

I'm going to need to ask you not to develop a site at bbbh.com.

So I tried to clear up any misunderstandings since I thought the issue was that I need to distance myself from him on the issue of stealthing for any BBBH branded site to be successful. Then he responded...

I think you'll find that I'd be able to challenge you on the legal use of bbbh.com as an infringement on my trademark.

Lovely, so now he's escalated things to threats of lawsuits.

I'm in the middle of three lawsuits right now. Four, if you count the one where I'm counter suing a 3rd party. Despite that I don't like lawsuits and would rather avoid them. That means I have a couple options here:

1. Fight him if he sues (and I'll fight back hard)
   
2. Change the branding to Bareback Bunkhouse, but still use bbbh.com
   

Doing what he says and not developing bbbh.com isn't a viable option, IMHO.

Personally I think his trademark claim is incredibly weak. It fails a number of litmus tests related to trademarks, so I think his claim would get thrown out pretty quickly. Still, lawsuits are a hassle and best avoided.

If I take option 2 it's not very good for the Bareback Brotherhood community. I mean I'll market the site pretty aggressively and in 5 or 10 years BBBH will be synonymous with Bareback Bunkhouse, not Bareback Brotherhood. Is that something you guys really want? Yet, if I'm forced into option 2 that's what will happen.

What this sort of comes down to is – does Mark own the name #BBBH / Bareback Brotherhood? Is it reasonable for him to make these demands and threats?

You guys are the Bareback Brotherhood. What do you guys think? I've always seen the term being owned by the group, not by any individual. Now that I own bbbh.com I view myself as a custodian of the concept. I want to build a hookup site that reflects the community. How is that a bad thing?

BTW, if you're not happy about what Mark's done, let him know - his Twitter handle is @iBlastInside

[dickluva]

I'm so sorry to hear of your trouble. I would avoid trouble if possible. I don't like fights even when I win. This makes me sad, because your plan to be partners on this was a kind and generous offer. Rawtop, You are better off without doing business with mark.

[wood]

It should be fairly easy to see if he actually owns anything like that as a trademark. Additionally, acronyms can mean all kinds of things. I don't know if you can trademark an acronym.

Personally I would just do it. I really doubt any court is going to look fondly on someone who advocates stealthing, considering its very illegal in many jurisdictions.

[pisstopper]

I personally couldn't care less about the acronym or what a new site would be called or how it is branded. This is about fucking raw isn't it? Does anything really matter beyond that? I don't see how a fight benefits you or anyone else. Create a site. Call it whatever. If guys are getting what they want out of it and something they can't get anywhere else I imagine it will succeed no matter what it's called in the end.

My advice - avoid all the unnecessary drama with the psychologically damaged and needy of the world especially over semantics and commitment to some sense of a virtual community. Concentrate on building something worthwhile. That will make whatever you name it the important moniker to remember.

[rawTOP]

I personally couldn't care less about the acronym or what a new site would be called or how it is branded. This is about fucking raw isn't it? Does anything really matter beyond that? I don't see how a fight benefits you or anyone else. Create a site. Call it whatever. If guys are getting what they want out of it and something they can't get anywhere else I imagine it will succeed no matter what it's called in the end.

You may not care, but the name does make a difference. Hookup sites are a matter of "go big or go home". They need a critical mass of people to be successful. BBBH will help attract that critical mass since most serious barebackers know the term and identify with the term.

There are other reasons as well. It's short, which means it's easy to type into a mobile device. And using Bareback Bunkhouse as an alternate brand I can get an app past Apple's censors.

But more than anything it makes no sense to me that one person can feel like they own the term that defines the community. Who owns BDSM? Who owns LGBT? Why should Mark own BBBH?

The more I research the issue, the more confident I am. At the moment I'm pretty certain I'll fight him hard if he files a lawsuit.

[Guest beezee]

The term is Mark's to commercialise, if anyone's. Bareback bunkhouse is just mean and tricky.

[hairyone]

It depends who tries to trademark it, first. If the Trademark Office denies it, then you have a federal government entity recognizing it as public domain. Then, use it. If the Trademark Office does approve it, then it belongs to whoever submitted the application first.

If I'm wrong, please someone correct me. I am interested in how this works out.

[rawTOP]

It depends who tries to trademark it, first. If the Trademark Office denies it, then you have a federal government entity recognizing it as public domain. Then, use it. If the Trademark Office does approve it, then it belongs to whoever submitted the application first.

If I'm wrong, please someone correct me. I am interested in how this works out.

That's not quite how it works. You have to use the term in a specific way and on descriptive terms like Bareback Brotherhood you have to show that people associate the term with your product or service. In this case if you asked 100 guys on this site what BBBH means probably 98+ would say it's a community or a hashtag describing a community. That's not a use that warrants trademark protection since there's no product or service. Even if my hookup site gets to be really big it probably still won't get trademark protection – at least not broad trademark protection (if I understand things correctly) – because BBBH will always primarily define the community, not a product or service.

This page explains things in a lot of detail…

http://chillingeffects.org/trademark/faq.cgi

Bottom line is that terms that label a community don't have trademark protection. Only things that are names of products or services can be trademarks - and then only if they meet certain criteria. The law actually makes a lot of sense in this case. The law essentially says BBBH belongs to the community, not to any individual.

A good example is Gilbert Baker, the creator of the rainbow flag. Would rainbow flags be as popular today if it weren't for him? Would they have the meaning they have today if it weren't for him? Absolutely not. But does he own the concept of a rainbow flag? Again – absolutely not. Do other people profit off his idea? Absolutely! If Gilbert had tried to have a strangle hold on the concept of the rainbow flag it would have just died and something else would have replaced it. It's only because he let others use it and profit off it that anyone knows his name today. That's the position Mark's in – is he going to let his baby grow up, or is he going to have a fight with his kid that will result in his kid never talking to him again? He's gotta make a choice and his knee jerk reaction so far seems to be the wrong one. Hopefully that'll change.

[GermanFucker]

Really not wanting to take sides or get involved in any way in this matter, so these are just some general thoughts:

1.) IMHO opinion as a European one of the things that are broken when it comes to the US is the legal system. Far too many people earning far too much money for a service that is neither productive nor innovative. I.e. a way of throwing money down the drain. There is a saying in German that goes somewhere along the lines of: Don't expect justice at a courthouse, all you will get is a ruling.

2.) Why not first ask politely what constitutes his trademark / his claim to BBBH? Simple prior usage or is it indeed registered in 99 countries not including North Korea?

3.) Of course the term bareback brotherhood is a simple descriptive term for comradery amongst those practising unsafe sex. If I hosted a PRIVATE SEX PARTY AMONGST FRIENDS under the motto of bareback brotherhood and somebody told me that I was abusing his trademark, I would politely ask him to fuck off. So the next question would be: Is it also a valid brand name, can it be used as a trademark. You obviously cannot register "detergent" as a trademark for detergent, but then again, "Mr. Clean" is ok. So I wouldn't know into which category BBBH might fall.

4.) But if it can be registered as a trademark, once one uses something commercially (an be it just by generating ad money), one usually expects a certain level of control over the "brand".

a.) Usually it's just one party that controls the trademark.

b.) Sometimes that party grants licenses, so more than one entity can use it.

c.) And then there are brands that are e.g. controlled by foundations that everyone can use, but you have to follow a certain set of rules (e.g. Linux, "organic" etc.).

5.) It would seem contradictory if a "brotherhood" is just one guy calling the shots. It can also be problematic if a number of guys share an identifier for thing, that is then used by someone for something slightly different (e.g. non-commercial vs. commercial). So rather than just "it's mine" vs. "no, it's mine" IMHO one would have to ask what is at the heart of the dispute.

[GermanFucker]

5.) should have been "...an identifier for A CERTAIN thing, that is then used..."

6.) Names are important (IMHO e.g. Grindr is a fantastic brand name), but when it comes to communities, it's all about the right people. The right guys will attract others. Barebackcity.com is kind of a weak trademark, but for a few glorious years it was the greatest thing on the internet.

7.) So if Bareback Brotherhood is indeed about brotherhood, about guys beeing cool with each other, then I'm all for it. But then again I've already seen some guys use it in a specific sense (e.g. you need to be ok with meth addiction or stealth pozzing if you subscribe to the idea of a bareback brotherhood), that can be problematic if it is supposed to be a platform for all. So personally I'm actually kinda feeling ambivalent about the BBBH brand.

8.) In the end we are all just horny guys. We want an easy to use product to connect with fuckable dudes. No hassles, no strings. A drawn-out legal battle is never a promising start for a platform.

[rawTOP]

Really not wanting to take sides or get involved in any way in this matter, so these are just some general thoughts:

#1 - I hate lawsuits as well, but there are rules we live by and that's the forum where people can get an answer on how the rules apply to their situation. I've been in enough lawsuits that I'm not afraid of them.

#2 - I have asked politely. AFAIK (I've searched the trademark database), he hasn't registered it. His claim is solely based on his role as originator of the hashtag and the term Bareback Brotherhood. He has a site which is essentially a registry of BBBH members, but no one is every logged into it when I look at the site.

#3 - The fuck off reaction is my thinking as well. What defines BBBH? Bareback sex and breeding. What am I going to put on BBBH.com? A site that facilitates bareback sex and breeding. I'm exactly within the parameters of the brand.

#4 - It's not registered, it's not his to grant a license to.

#5 - My thoughts exactly - it's a brotherhood, not Mark's product. I don't claim to be any sort of owner of the term. I see myself as a custodian / a caretaker.

#6 - Yeah, it's about the community. I want to attract a certain type of guy to the site - guys who are serious about sex. Breeding Zone has those guys, but it's brand is tarnished by all the bug chasing on the site, so I needed another term for the community.

#7 - Agreed, if #BBBH starts to equal stealthing and drug use - then the community will have lost something really important. I want to rescue the brand before it becomes too narrow. The bareback meth heads can keep NKP. They don't need the broader term as well.

#8 - I'm not scared of a legal battle. It's publicity and gives a clean division that shows that that BBBH does not equal stealthing, etc. (it may include those things but they're tangential, not fundamental). And a legal battle shouldn't affect users. It'll happen behind the scenes. Honestly, I'm 95+% confident he won't survive a show cause hearing (where he has to prove the basic elements of his case in order to proceed). Any legal battle should be over quickly.

[curiousone]

What are your other lawsuits about?

[buzztham]

I don't think rawtop can talk about his lawsuits and if he can I don't think he should because if he says something about them they could be used against him

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

I have no issue with bareback bunkhouse... Frankly I predict that in a year people may completely forgot about bbbh.org. A fairly forgettable site as it is... If the big qualm is reusing " bareback brotherhood " frankly I think you should let that go...

[rawTOP]

What are your other lawsuits about?

They have nothing to do with my business. One is we're suing the City of New York over our property tax assessment. It's just what you do when they charge you too much and fail to correct a flawed assessment. Another is related to the renovation we did on our place - it's being handled by insurance companies. And the other one is something completely different.