Life expectancy if I get pozzed at 23?

[firefighter]

I asked my question here because I trusted this community to point me in the right direction to find the answer to my question.

And yes, bearbandit, I do have manners. However, I also have the capacity to decide when being polite is warranted.

So basically this thread has devolved into a circlejerk of bashing younger members of the community, because having been on this Earth for a few more years automatically makes you an expert in everything under the sun, even if 90% of that time was spent mindlessly fastening rivets on an assembly line. And of course, this thread wouldn't be complete without questioning my motives for asking what was, to me, a pretty straightforward question, and insinuating ulterior motives that better align with your pre-established narrative of my desires and thought processes, so that you can pat yourselves on the back for being so much older and wiser than me.

So, yeah, I'm going to take one piece of advice from this thread, and disengage from it. Have a nice day, and God help the next poor soul that comes here looking for respect and advice.

Now I have to hand it too you, that was the best post you wrote, especially the first 17 words of the last line,

But that said my good friend, I will say this to you only because you're a nice guy underneath all that macho exterior, you are intelligent and well able to stand your ground.

But Don't ask a question, that you have already answered within yourself, and make little of the people who try to answer it with honesty and experience. It's not nice, but that said, just in case you are looking in from the outside, It's not necessary to leave because you don't like what you are being told, you are in your twenties not 10 or 12, you are mature and you do have a lot to offer, I think I speak for most of the community here when I say "we hate to see a brother leave", especially on a bad note. If however you have decided to go and you see this as a guest, I personally wish you all the best in the future, as do all the community here, if you do feel alone in the future feel free to pop in and say hi.

[Guest JizzDumpWI]

Exiting a thread (a specific conversation) is different than exiting breedingzone. I believe mike_thierlot will stick around BreedingZone. At least, I am with you firefighter, and hope so. He has a lot going for him... I am confident mike has figured out subscribing and unsubscribing to conversations.

[barefootbob]

the same could be asked of a 23 year old straight guy who lived and ate healthy, exercised . . when your number is up its up. you could make it to 24 or 84

[Bear4Breeding]

I only read a few of the posts here. But the main question is. How long can you expect to live if you get poz at 23 years old?

The post i wrote a few days ago https://breeding.zone/threads/24848-Better-then-Viagra-or-any-of-those-dick-pills about hooking up with a retired doc says. He is in his 60's, honestly doesn't look a day over 45 and he has been poz since 1984.

I think if you take your meds and live as somone said a Healthy lifestyle your life expectancy is pretty good to be long. This of course doesn't take into account any freak accidents or any things that may run in your family and could be considered hereditary.

[bearbandit]

Bloody difficult when the themes you want to address get spread over two pages...

First off, to mike_theriot, we all knew how the world had to change in our early twenties. Experience over the years has tuaght us that it just don't work that way. There's no conspiracy against youth, just an awareness that you may be making the biggest mistake of your life and an effort to steer you aware from making that mistake. Speaking for myself, when I was 23, anyone over 35 was an ignorant asshole who didn't know what was happening in the world and was only good for sex. I like to think I've learned a bit since then.

The face of HIV has changed "since my day" - I remember the first cautious news items in the Advocate about clusters of rare diseases (PCP and KS) in gay men. It's now pretty much become just another STI, albeit one that lasts for life and kills you if you don't take the meds. And not in a gentle, slip away in your sleep way. Agonising and humiliating are two words that spring to mind.

Virtually all of us here have made mistakes: what you interpret as bashing youth is actually us trying to stop you from making the same mistakes. One bit of advice: you get your point across much more memorably by being polite about it rather than deciding if someone "deserves" your good manners.

Smudger: I've been poz since 1980. I've fucked up a lot of times and just don't want anyone else to re-live my life when I know there are other choices. Thanks for your comments :-) Although I can assure you that my longrunning story Pozdaddy started out as fiction way before it descended into thinly disguised gossip: The gifting/chasing scene has never been for me. I enjoy Buffy the Vampire Slayer: does that mean I really want to be homo-Spike? ;-)

Jizz and Firefighter - absolute agreement!

mike_theriot - none of this has been personal: as others have said, we've been trying to pass our experience on to you so you don't fuck up the way we may (I'm not speaking for everyone!) have. Stick around and learn. At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, may I suggest you read http://www.beyondpositive.org/2013/10/21/steve-mentoring-died-aids-epidemic-now/ ? A short think piece on younger guys learning from older guys on the scene and the way it doesn't seem to happen any more...

[flumphernutter]

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, may I suggest you read http://www.beyondpositive.org/2013/10/21/steve-mentoring-died-aids-epidemic-now/ ? A short think piece on younger guys learning from older guys on the scene and the way it doesn't seem to happen any more...

Thanks for the piece. It reminded me of the old (read: in their thirties…) queens that showed me the ropes while they were trying to get my pants off in the late eighties. Good people. I think you're right on, but I also think that, as gay culture morphs steadily into the mainstream, the neo-mos aren't really looking to be mentored anymore, at least not in the ways of gay.

[piggyandblack]

mike_theriot, if you haven't left the group yet, let me add another word of caution. Most of these guys are right about the life expectancy question. You can life a very long and healthy life if it were to happen. However, there are possible consequences that would never come to mind under any other circumstances once you become poz. im my case, because of my status I am no longer able to travle for my employer like I use to. Not because of the employers rules but of those in the country I would be traveling too. This country does not accept people with HIV, (like most nations didn't in the early days but have resend ed this practice,,,at least in western nations), also getting my student pilot certificate (a life long dream) became increasingly difficult, (not to mention expensive) once I told the medical examiner I was HIV positive. My point here is that the unintended consequences are almost impossible to calculate and will never occur to you until you are face to face with having to deal with them. I really like reading these raunchy breeding stories, (not that I would every intentionally do something like that to someone) for some reason they get be going like almost no others. But I don't think the piggish hype lives up to reality to the extent that "trying it" is the thing to do. Once you have it, you have it! Be careful...hope this helps

[MackyJay]

A good answer to this question is this: 20 years ago you could most likely look at maybe another year or two at most. Now with the meds on the market and some new ones showing some real promise, you should barring other intangibles, like an accident or other disease, live to be a hundred. Depends anymore on you and how well you take care of yourself. Life expectancy is, at this time, approx. a few years off of your 'normal', but like I said with medical break throughs and meds and if you take care of yourself, there is no real reason becoming poz would not let you reach at least the average age expectancy of anyone else.

[bigsmoothcock]

Thanks for being rational and at least trying to talk sense into this kid. Clearly he has his mind made up and will ignore andy kind of wisdom, but you have summed it up very well for anyone with half a brain.

[wood]

I asked my question here because I trusted this community to point me in the right direction to find the answer to my question.

And yes, bearbandit, I do have manners. However, I also have the capacity to decide when being polite is warranted.

So basically this thread has devolved into a circlejerk of bashing younger members of the community, because having been on this Earth for a few more years automatically makes you an expert in everything under the sun, even if 90% of that time was spent mindlessly fastening rivets on an assembly line. And of course, this thread wouldn't be complete without questioning my motives for asking what was, to me, a pretty straightforward question, and insinuating ulterior motives that better align with your pre-established narrative of my desires and thought processes, so that you can pat yourselves on the back for being so much older and wiser than me.

So, yeah, I'm going to take one piece of advice from this thread, and disengage from it. Have a nice day, and God help the next poor soul that comes here looking for respect and advice.

Its not bashing younger members, its asking for advice, and not liking the answer, thats what you are doing. You asked a question that has a far more complex answer than just "yes you should live to 60 or 70" When we tried to give you more of a realistic view, you didnt want to hear it.

The fact is that many of the older members in here have dealt with HIV for a long time, some like bearbandit work professionally in the field, they KNOW what they are talking about more than you, thats just a fact. You seem to talk offense to that, when you shouldn't. You say you want respect and advice, but you don't want to listen because it align with your preestablished desires.

[Poz1956]

I can speak to a few points, as I live in the same province as the OP.

There may be a difference between Mike accepting the "inevitability" that, because he barebacks, he will become Poz, and him seeking to become Poz. I'm hoping it is the former, rather than the latter.

I'm a Poz guy, and I wish I wasn't. I'll leave it at that. No lecture from me.

As to your original question, I probably caught it at 26 -- Next month I'll be 58. I'll die on whatever date I'm destined to die, and it is highly unlikely that some HIV complication will put me in my grave.

If/when you become Poz, the province covers the total cost of your ARVs, regardless of what regime you're on. You pick them up at the same time as your regular visits to the HIV clinic.

I probably shouldn't say this, but you're most likely to catch HIV from the "Clean U B 2" crowd. The guys who are Poz, and don't know they are Poz are responsible for almost all of the new transmissions.

News just in from the "Partner" study shows that it is highly unlikely you'll catch it from Poz Undetectable guys. Based on the number and type of sex acts, the researches would have expected about 30% of the Neg partners to become Poz. With an estimated 16,400 gay guy sex acts not a single Neg person in the study caught it from their Poz partner. It's not specified if the sex acts were mostly BB, or includes JO and BJ.

There is a certain irony in the fact us Poz guys, who the Neggies are most afraid of, are probably going to turn out to be the ones least likely to infect them! Our status is 100% known verses all the "D & D Free" guys. Many of them don't test regularly, if ever.

For the guys pushing PrEP:

Truvada is not yet approved for PrEP by Health Canada. It can still be prescribed, with PrEP being an Off-Label use.

I've heard rumours that Gilead may not even seek its approval for PrEP in Canada. They have not applied for it as of yet. The smaller population and low uptake may not worth the cost to get it approved.

Gilead assistance programs are only applicable to US residents, so they're leaving us Canucks doubly out on the cold.

If a guy chooses to go on PrEP, he will either have to shoulder the cost himself, or hope his employer's health benefit plan will cover it. With it being unapproved, I doubt many insurers will. I know of one person who does have it covered. I've heard that it cost here is $1.400 a month, but a recent DailyExtra article said it cost $850 in Quebec.

There are a couple of Canadian studies going on, in Toronto, and Montreal. If a guy could get in on one of those, he would get the PrEP for free. At least he would for the length of the study. But nothing that I know of out here in the West. Even in BC, where the efficacy of the multi-drug cocktails was discovered, and the home of Treatment as Prevention (TasP), they are kind of lukewarm on the idea of PrEP.

Things work differently up here guys. In the US, insurers have calculated that it's cheaper to cover a two drug regime, for a few "wild and crazy" years, than to cover three ARV drugs for the rest of a guy's life. There was only about 2,000 guys on PrEP in the US last year, so it's not costing the insurers a heck of a lot of money at the moment. Up here, because the provinces cover the cost for the Poz guy's HIV meds, the math isn't the same. Let's face it PrEP has had a very slow uptake.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Poz1956

[wood]

For the guys pushing PrEP:

Truvada is not yet approved for PrEP by Health Canada. It can still be prescribed, with PrEP being an Off-Label use.

I've heard rumours that Gilead may not even seek its approval for PrEP in Canada. They have not applied for it as of yet. The smaller population and low uptake may not worth the cost to get it approved.

Gilead assistance programs are only applicable to US residents, so they're leaving us Canucks doubly out on the cold.

If a guy chooses to go on PrEP, he will either have to shoulder the cost himself, or hope his employer's health benefit plan will cover it. With it being unapproved, I doubt many insurers will. I know of one person who does have it covered. I've heard that it cost here is $1.400 a month, but a recent DailyExtra article said it cost $850 in Quebec.

There are a couple of Canadian studies going on, in Toronto, and Montreal. If a guy could get in on one of those, he would get the PrEP for free. At least he would for the length of the study. But nothing that I know of out here in the West. Even in BC, where the efficacy of the multi-drug cocktails was discovered, and the home of Treatment as Prevention (TasP), they are kind of lukewarm on the idea of PrEP.

Things work differently up here guys. In the US, insurers have calculated that it's cheaper to cover a two drug regime, for a few "wild and crazy" years, than to cover three ARV drugs for the rest of a guy's life. There was only about 2,000 guys on PrEP in the US last year, so it's not costing the insurers a heck of a lot of money at the moment. Up here, because the provinces cover the cost for the Poz guy's HIV meds, the math isn't the same. Let's face it PrEP has had a very slow uptake.

Well... lets not get into the costs of health care in Canada vs the US now...

I push PrEP because like fast initial treatment, and consistent testing I believe those the things that could actually with the war against HIV even without a cure. PrEP with truvada is a flawed system and I acknowledge that. Its an expensive pill a day, that has to be taken perfectly for it to really work. However PrEP is also being researched in several different forms. One is a once every 10 week injection, another is a 2x a week pill. both IMO would be much better than what we have now, with the injection route being the most advantageous.

PrEP has had a slow uptake, and unfortunately its been even slower in the at risk populations that really need it. Look at the HIV infection rates in the southern US and you will see what I mean. I fully understand being wary about PrEP, however it has been proven to work, and I am for anything that can actually put an end to HIV/AIDS, especially when its been proven safe.

[fskn]

Poz1956, thanks for educating readers about differences in drug benefits and drug approvals in the United States and Canada. I grew up in Canada and have lived my adult life in the US. It still amazes me that there is so little understanding of the outside world here.

Drug coverage for the non-poor, non-senior population is a big gap in Canada's system of socialized medicine. It's a relief to know that some provinces are now assisting patients with some HIV drug costs.

And yes, it is a shame that daily Truvada for PrEP, which has been proven to be highly effective, has not (yet) received approval in Canada.

I do want to clarify the insurance status of Truvada for PrEP in the US. Private US health insurers cover PrEP not for economic reasons, but because they are bound to cover it on the same terms as other FDA-approved prescription drugs unless they modify their contracts to exclude this category of care. (For example, experimental drugs are not covered, because they lack FDA approval, and fertility treatments are not covered, because virtually all US health plans have contract language excluding that category.)

Where US insurers have discretion about which medical services to cover, at what levels, with how much promotion to members, and with how many barriers to access (pre-approval, extensive claims documentation, etc.), the main economic question is: how long will the patient remain insured with us? Since insurance for most Americans is still tied to employment, patients can be expected to switch insurers every few years. Though investing in preventive care lowers individual lifetime costs and total population costs, it doesn't benefit one's current medical insurer. This is why, for example, US health insurers don't do much to promote vaccinations, and why we have low vaccination rates for a developed country.

Kaiser is just about the only private US medical insurer where preventive care incentives operate naturally. Insurer, medical practice group and hospital operator are one in the same, and market share is large enough that patients can remain in the system across most changes of employment. Not surprisingly, Kaiser's PrEP program is well-organized.

The long-term, national economic case for PrEP is strong, and it will become even stronger when the Truvada patent expires, when/if less-than-daily dosing is approved, and when/if other drugs are approved for PrEP.

From a policy perspective, let's hope that long-term societal interests prevail over fragmented short-term interests.

[Poz1956]

To the best of my knowledge, all of the provinces and territories are covering 100% of the ARV costs. I believe at one time BC did charge people of means for one out of the three drugs, but that's long gone.

The world has recognized and is rapidly adopting TasP. Even the mighty USA, with it's tendency to move slow, kicking and screaming about anything sexual, has embraced TasP. Sadly BC is the only province to take this harm reduction approach. They offer an HIV test to any patient entering hospital, or any emergency ward in the province. They're finding about 1 per 100,000 that are not known to have any of the common risk factors. It makes sense - they embrace harm reduction. They also have the only safe injection site in Canada.

Neither the federal health minister, nor any of the other provincial health ministers will have a five minute meeting with Dr. Julio Montaner, Director of the BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS. He pioneered TasP and the world has beat a path to his door. Incidentally, he also developed the concept of the multi-drug cocktails. I guess that's sort of like all those great Canadian entertainers who have to go to our southern neighbour to make it big. Maybe if he nominate for a Nobel Prize in medicine someone will blink.

Heck I live in a 1.25 million plus city, and we can't even get the STI clinic to be open one evening a week. Not even once a month. It's estimated the with medical follow-up, tests, and drugs, it costs a provinces 1/2 million to treat a Pozzie over his life. How many people can you test for that much money? If you locate and treat a person, and prevent his/her transmission to one or two others, (and the ones they would have infected . . .) the savings multiply exponentially.

Even progressive BC is lukewarm on PrEP. Montaner feels that wider deployment of TasP is a better use of resources. I know there aren't many gay guys up here who are even aware of PEP or PrEP. Any time I mention either of them the response is a blank stare and ??? C'est la vie!

Edited March 20, 2014 by Poz1956

[jtonic]

this post made me cry. i got diagnosed recently. i never did anything wrong. always protected myself. obviously i overlooked something or chose to meet the wrong person

i didnt think about all these repercussions until now.

i havent started treatment yet. finding out next week (viral load)

my life is fucking over

No, you dont. You have a fantasized idea of what you want.

and have you ever thought of stuff like,

*what if I dont respond to many treatments

*what if I fall in love with a neg man, who cant stomach being with a HIV+ guy

*what if I get some other illness that HIV makes MUCH worse (my friend got anal cancer at 28, after he tested HIV+)

*what if I get a fantastic opportunity somewhere else in the world, where getting medication may not be possible

*what if I regret my young and stupid thinking.

etc, etc, etc.

Food for thought, When I was 22, I wanted a kid really bad, and was actually sleeping with girls and not using condoms. Looking back, it would have been one of the worst decisions I ever could have made.