Tell Me Your Thoughts On Privacy vs. GeoLocation

[rawTOP]

I just spent the day trying to figure out how I'll deal with GeoLocation and GeoCoding on my BBBH hookup site (under development). Before I spend a huge amount of time doing something people will have issues with, I thought I'd ask you guys what you thought about privacy vs. GeoLocation…

On the one hand you guys use apps like Grindr, Scruff, etc. that know precisely where you are – down to a few feet of your actual location. And you're fine with that. It seems many of them won't report distances of less than say 200 feet. And they never show you on a map.

But what you put on those apps is relatively benign since Apple requires the public content to be "family friendly". BBBH.com will be a lot raunchier. So the question is, do you have an privacy concerns about BBBH.com knowing your exact location that are more than the concerns you have for Grindr or Scruff?

Here are some of the controls I'll be implementing - tell me if they're sufficient…

Profiles can have two general privacy settings - public and members only. "Public" means that your profile will be crawlable and indexable by search engines and viewable by the general public. "Members Only" means that your profile and activity can only be seen by members who have logged in. And remember - even sites like BBRT have publicly crawlable profile pages - here's mine.

One fundamental thing is that I'll never show a map of users except in one situation - Cumdump Network members - but they'll have to specifically opt into that and they'll be giving explicit permission for a specific location to be shown for them. It won't show their "live", actual location.

The other thing I'll make sure I never do is transmit an actual lat/long to a web browser. I'll only transmit distances. The question is – should there be a minimum distance that's transmitted? In other words, do you care if someone knows you're "38 feet away" or would you rather they see "<200 feet away"? Just realize that if you choose something like <200 the sorting under that threshold will be completely random since I'll be implementing a solution where you can sort within the browser without having to hit the web server. So someone that's 150 feet away could appear before someone who's 5 feet away when you sort a selection of profiles by distance.

Another (small) privacy control will be that while I'll store your lat/long, I won't ever store your address. This may seem dumb - I mean if you have the lat/long, you can figure out the address. But it's just sort of creepy for the site to record your address. But getting lat/long from a desktop browser only works some of the time, so for those users there will be the option to enter an address to come up with a lat/long, but the address won't be stored - just the lat/long.

One feature I've been thinking of is to let people see non-logged in users that are near them. I've actually built things so users can be tracked across all my sites. On this site you can already see a list of site visitors and what page they're viewing. I'll extend that, so the page shown is from any of my sites (rawTOP.com, Breeding Zone, Raunchy Fuckers, BBBH.com, or Cumdump Network), but unlike this site you'll be able to see how far they are from you. Now, if they're not logged in you'll just see "Anonymous User", whereas if they are logged in you'd see their user name. And the other caveat is that if they're coming from an IP address that's unknown or on a cellular network the accuracy of their location is a bit hit-or-miss. Today the IP I had on my cell phone showed me in the northwest corner of Connecticut when I was in Harlem. So this entire feature is a bit up in the air - since what's the point if the data is bad? What I might do is only show users coming from known IP addresses. So let's say you log into BBBH.com at your local Starbucks so I know the IP, then someone else comes along and accesses the site from Starbucks without logging in - then I know their actual location and can show them to you. Clearly, this whole feature is very much up in the air, but I'm wondering your thoughts on it.

So just generally talk to me and tell me what you think the guidelines should be for location data within the context of a bareback hookup site…

[NuttinmyButt]

On a personal note, while I guess I could find reasons to worry about keeping my private life private, I am not one who is going to hide. I would like actual feet away - even less than 200 feet. I do like the public vs. member only profiles idea, although on a personal level, again, if I say it to members or show it to members, I will say it or show it to anyone. So basically, I am cool with whatever you do.

[NuttinmyButt]

By the way, is the cumdump operational ? And, I'd love to buy you a drink sometime. I really would love to meet you.

[rawTOP]

By the way, is the cumdump operational ? And, I'd love to buy you a drink sometime. I really would love to meet you.

I tried to get CumdumpNetwork.com up and running using a different strategy. That failed. I could have put a lot of effort into it, but it wouldn't have been all that great. BBBH.com will offer members the opportunity to be listed on CumdumpNetwork.com. So first I have to get at least the basics of BBBH.com up and running. So no, it's not working yet.

As far as the drink - are you in NYC?

[NuttinmyButt]

I can't wait to be listed on cumdump. Yes, I am in NYC, w60s off b'way. I saw your post on rawtop about sex with friends that said "So the moral of the story is, if you want to be my fuck buddy, just stick to sex – be a hole for me and nothing more. Or, if you really want to get to know me, that’s fine – just realize the sexual part will probably die." I thought to myself, how cool, if it can be friends, I can get to meet someone I think is interesting and never have to worry about any of the physical stuff. It takes all the pressure out of it. Sometimes there are people you just think you want to get to know.

[TigerMilner]

When I travel I use Grindr, and I don't use my name on that site, so I like to see and show the distances. I have used it locally but I keep deleting my profile. Somehow it creeps me out. But, on the other hand it is really hot to find that another hot guy is in the same hotel. I might use BBBH the same way. My BBRT profile is a name that people can figure out if they know me, but it only lists what city I'm in. I just don't want and would never use an app that would let someone find my home. My home is my sanctuary. If I want you to come over, I'll give you the address. Otherwise, I am hiding out.

It just seems it would be too easy to take stalking to a bizarre new level. I wouldn't want any part of that. But I am excited to see what you are putting together. I know it will be hot. And if you come down to south florida, I WILL give YOU my address....

[rawTOP]

When I travel I use Grindr, and I don't use my name on that site, so I like to see and show the distances. I have used it locally but I keep deleting my profile. Somehow it creeps me out. But, on the other hand it is really hot to find that another hot guy is in the same hotel. I might use BBBH the same way. My BBRT profile is a name that people can figure out if they know me, but it only lists what city I'm in. I just don't want and would never use an app that would let someone find my home. My home is my sanctuary. If I want you to come over, I'll give you the address. Otherwise, I am hiding out.

It just seems it would be too easy to take stalking to a bizarre new level. I wouldn't want any part of that. But I am excited to see what you are putting together. I know it will be hot. And if you come down to south florida, I WILL give YOU my address....

So you like Grindr, but at the same time you don't quite trust it - you keep deleting your profile. The issue with any of those sites is that people can keep moving around and see the distance get smaller and smaller until they figure out where you are even though there's no map. It's just the nature of the beast - yet it's generally considered acceptable and the apps are wildly popular.

I want people to build up reputations on BBBH - so deleting your profile will defeat that purpose. I'm now wondering if there shouldn't be some sort of upgrade or something that lets users set visibility to "only trusted members and guys I think are hot". The question is how many guys think like you do and will have trust issues with the site?

Hmmmm....

[drscorpio]

I think it would be totally pointless NOT to have location and distance functions in a hook up site. Having a general idea of how far away a guy is from their profile makes it much easier to judge who is a realistic possibility for a trick.

I like the level of detail A4A gives. I am totally comfortable with that. I wouldn't mind if it was as accurate as iPhone aps like Growlr or Scruff.

[AlwaysOpen]

Hey RawTop- from what i have experienced on sites like A4A Radar, these are the issues I can report on. If I access Radar from my phone at work, then close it and later after work get online at home on my laptop, I am still 8 miles away at work. So there isn't a real or accurate distance unless you close out of the laptop, relaunch the Radar app from where you are at the moment, once it locates you you can shut it back down and relog in on the laptop. Probably a simple fix for them that they have not addressed, but I see a lot of guys having the same issue- so distance away is a bit buggy

As far as non members being able to locate me- fuck them- they can join if they want to know how close I am. And a member has some info on file with you, I am comfortable with a fellow breeder knowing I am available and nearby. I would hope tho that I could block a certain member from being able to assess my location, so if at some point down the road someone becomes a psycho and is a pain in the ass, I could block them and not have to wonder if they are in a Green Kiak 4 cars back <g.>

[Bttm2go]

I don't have an issue showing my location. Having a way to go private would be nice in case I didn't want to broadcast where I'm at, but I would rarely use it. Another option is to limit the distance down to 200 feet. When I am on bbrt I like seeing how close the guy is. If he is around the corner then I can contact him for a quick hook up when I don't have time to travel.

[colletonguy]

I'd have no privacy issues. I figure if someone finds me through your site, they're looking for the same thing I am.

[NLbear]

I think it would be totally pointless NOT to have location and distance functions in a hook up site. Having a general idea of how far away a guy is from their profile makes it much easier to judge who is a realistic possibility for a trick.

Agree. Nice to know who is close and a potential quick hookup

Edited February 5, 2014 by rawTOP

[bb1991]

I think a distance thing can be quite good but there has to be limits.

Gaydar.co.uk, for example, calculates distance based on your postcode (your street basically), but it never publicly posts that street or postcode, and as you have to input it yourself, you can choose not to input it, or put in a fake one (for my profile, I used a postcode for the city centre rather than the area I actually lived).

And the distances it calculates are never more precise than a mile. So it's good for working out who's close but not too specific to risk privacy/stalking.

After all, why do you need to know if someone is only 20ft from you? A mile is close enough for any hookup purposes (2 mins drive / 15 min walk).

I'm in a similar boat to TigerMilner with grindr. I only use it when out or in new cities - never at home. And I always delete it straight after.

I don't think I'd be comfortable using any hookup site that was publicly posting and mapping my location that specifically. If I did, it would never be my "main" site, and would just end up using it sporadically when away, and then deleting it, like grindr.

For people on the cumdump network, they may have no qualms about posting their full addresses and contact details. But if you're trying to create a "mainstream" hookup site to rival the likes of BBRT, that's not going to work, and will put people completely off. Look at BBRT: the majority have their face pics set to private, or have none at all.

[sentry75]

I hate geolocation. I won't install or use apps like Grindr because of privacy concerns.

I find it really creepy that someone could track where I sleep, work and recreate.

[bbzh]

I am not a big fan of geolocation. I really value my privacy, especially since my race makes it easy to identify me where I live. I am actually on the verge of disappearing completely off social media because I am simply not able to manage what information is where or when and how it is communicated to others (for example LinkedIn pisses me off by telling everyone in my network about work anniversaries or if I looked at their profile. WHY???) As some have pointed out here, broadcasting locations could have sinister implications (eg stalking, outing people as gay, barebackers or poz, or even alerting people when you are away from home etc). It's not so much that I have something to hide. It's more that I want absolute control and full knowledge about what information is out there about me at all times. Moreover, I don't think a guy's proximity to me significantly increases the likelihood we will hook up. Maybe if I'm travelling, but I would argue it has the opposite effect when I'm home. I see guys right around me on Scruff but I have only hooked up with them once or twice. Maybe I'm just weird but I kind of cherish the anonymity here and I share a lot more of what I do and think because of it.