Do Tops have a right to bottoms’ asses?

[ErosWired]

On 12/6/2018 at 11:33 PM, flacogedor said:

The ownership lies in the right won by the Alpha and in its exercise for whatever reason he deems fit, and not on the desire of bottoms for cum. So, like you ask in the title of this thread, Tops (Alphas, not just any guy with a dick) have a right to bottoms' asses, but bottoms don't have a right to Tops' cum.

I’ve done a lot of thinking about this topic since I started it, and among the several replies, this comment by @flacogedor seems, at least for me, to most precisely answer the question.

If a Top’s (Alpha’s) right to enjoy a bottom’s ass were dependent on whether the bottom was looking for cum, then there would actually be no right at all - this would be a society in which bottoms held all the cards, and Tops would be beholden to them for permission to fuck.

Yet we know that absolutely isn’t how it works in real life. In real life, we recognize Top, Alpha, Superior Men who demonstrate the courage, determination, and ambition to know what they want, and the masculine drive and aggression to reach out and take it. When such a man takes something for himself and it is not challenged, it establishes his Right. Over time, Tops (Alphas) have claimed bottom ass at will and without challenge so often that the Right becomes understood to be universal and perpetual.

Whether or not the bottom is eager (or even greedy) for cum should have no part in the question. It is no concern of the Top how much the bottom he fucks craves his cum - unless the bottom’s desperation excites the Top, it contributes nothing to his pleasure.

Frankly, I really don’t relate to bottoms who just say their goal is to “get as many cum loads as possible”. That approach treats Tops - Superior Men - as nothing but vending machines. It’s no wonder so many Tops complain about “greedy bottoms”. I find that these same bottoms often become very possessive about what they call “my cum” or “my loads” that they’ve collected.

I never think of any load pumped into me as mine. In my mind, it is still a part of the Top who put it there, representing him, marking me for him. It never becomes “mine”. That’s part of the reason that I don’t measure my success in loads taken. For me, I am successful when the Top, who has chosen me for the privilege of his fuck, enjoys himself in me in unrestrained sexuality, and finishes satisfied - even if his cum doesn’t end up in my ass. The highest praise is to be told, “Good boy.”

Some bottoms are in it only for what they can get; others are in it for what they can give away. I am one of the latter sort, willing and eager to accept my role, and let Alpha Men take as much of me as they want, confirming their Right to fuck my ass any time, anywhere.

[flacogedor]

That was perfectly written, @ErosWired.

This perspective on D/s relationships comes from the fact that we Alphas are selfish in nature, and subs are the opposite: loving creatures. I know at first this sounds cheesy as hell, but it makes sense because selfishness takes from others while love is all about giving. The problem is that nowadays we're confusing love with personal tastes and needs. When a bottom says "I love Men, I love cock, I love cum," they usually mean that's what they crave for and what they want to obtain, when in fact a true faggot who feels that same way would instead be open to SERVICE Men, to give himself (body, time, effort) to satisfy HIS needs.

That's why when I claim an ass I always make sure that at some point the faggot sees me fuck another hole right in front of him without any possibility of enjoying my cock and let alone my cum. If a Dom is training a sub, he needs to experience other faggot enjoying our fuck right in front of his eyes with no reward other than being in our presence while we fuck. If he can get through that with a soft disposition, he's good material to work with.

Just a short anecdote: I remember this 18 year old I was training in facefucking. He had a natural talent for cocksucking and really wanted to learn how to please a Man (later on I ended up giving him some truly brutal facefucks, in which he would throw up and get all teary-eyed but would keep going no matter what, fffuck I love that boy), and even though he was submissive with me in all our encounters, I could sense some cockiness and courage that only the rebel phase of the teenage years can give you, so one time after a good facefucking session I decided to NOT give him my load. He was so eagerly waiting for my cum (like a good faggot, that is his ultimate reward) but was so surprised by my decision that in less than five minutes he went from disbelief to rage to crying and begging and then some more yelling. It was so funny and even beautiful to see, really, but not because I liked his reaction (not at all, that's exactly what subs should NOT do), but because he was clearly a young faggot who needed Men and our seed in his life but was still learning how to truly love us and be a good boy. He eventually learned his lesson.

Edited January 8, 2019 by flacogedor

[ChemchargedPIGhole]

Personally it's pure roleplay (but I'd never pretend it is!). Whern I get fucked I really *want* to be used, debased, treated like trash and told I'm just a hole. And it empowers me. But out of bed (or wherever) I want to be treated nicely.

Before I received my first load and became obsessed I used to complain thst every bottom's dream man was a Nazi homophobic army soldier that hates you. But that was before...

I never talk about my "normal" life and never tell guys about my 120+ IQ. Thast would destroy the fantasy.

[flacogedor]

1 hour ago, ChemchargedPIGhole said:

Personally it's pure roleplay (but I'd never pretend it is!). Whern I get fucked I really *want* to be used, debased, treated like trash and told I'm just a hole. And it empowers me. But out of bed (or wherever) I want to be treated nicely.

Before I received my first load and became obsessed I used to complain thst every bottom's dream man was a Nazi homophobic army soldier that hates you. But that was before...

I never talk about my "normal" life and never tell guys about my 120+ IQ. Thast would destroy the fantasy.

It's roleplay in the sense that each person has a basic way of acting and certain limits or functions, and sex is the moment where all that gets enacted, but that doesn't mean that you should translate it to all other aspects of life, the same way that (most) people don't fuck while they are eating, working, with family, etc. I actually live the same way as you do: I'm a "regular," easy-going guy in life, but when it comes to sex I let this inner force free. Consequently, while during sex I demand a lot both physically and psychologically from my subs, outside of this scenario I'm perfectly capable of exploring other areas of life and seeing my guys as something else other than a toy to play with.

[Pigmut]

Well written. 

[tallslenderguy]

2 hours ago, flacogedor said:

This perspective on D/s relationships comes from the fact that we Alphas are selfish in nature, and subs are the opposite: loving creatures. I know at first this sounds cheesy as hell, but it makes sense because selfishness takes from others while love is all about giving....

....when I claim an ass I always make sure that at some point the faggot sees me fuck another hole right in front of him without any possibility of enjoying my cock and let alone my cum. If a Dom is training a sub, he needs to experience other faggot enjoying our fuck right in front of his eyes with no reward other than being in our presence while we fuck. If he can get through that with a soft disposition, he's good material to work with.

 

i have a friend on this site who as been married to a Dom guy for several years, we've written back and forth a lot and shared the most intimate details of our lives with each other.  Sometimes when he has told me about his ongoing relationship i consider writing back that i am "jealous" or "envious" of what he has, but i always trip over those words if i write them, and usually edit them out because they just are not accurate.  i love my faggot friend and am happy for what he has, i'd be sad if he lost it and words like "jealous" or "envious" convey a desire to possess that i do not feel. I.e., i would love to have what he has, but not at his expense. 

i see competition among bottoms all the time; here where some subtly (and some not so subtly lol) assert things about their self they hope will be  perceived qualities from a Top, will make them unique, stand apart from the pack.  At sex clubs and ABS, i've experienced bottoms who will identify other bottoms, then go down the booth hallway and close the booths on either side of the bottom in an attempt to steer guys away from them and, i guess, toward them.  Competition between bottoms pisses me off and my response is to usually to leave or take myself out of the picture rather than make connecting with another guy a competition.  But i'd also like to be completely honest and clarify that's not because i see myself as some sort of unworthy receptacle. i don't.  "Receptacle" yes, "unworthy" no. i think we (Top and bottom) all have varying/different value and that our value is realized in relationship, not conferred by it. To me, competition is me trying to force realization of my value, which to me seems a violation of autonomy. idk, that may be weird, but i really think and feel that way.

 flacogedor wrote in an earlier post: "Tops (Alphas, not just any guy with a dick) have a right to bottoms' asses, but bottoms don't have a right toTops' cum."   i think that just like there is a difference between being Top and Alpha, there is also a difference between being bottom and sub and that a sub is not just any guy with a hole. 

The spectrum view of who and how we are makes sense to me. I.e., at one end of the spectrum are  "Alpha" at the the other end "sub," then Top and bottom fit somewhere after those, versatile is somewhere in the middle, etc..  i see our position on the spectrum as somewhat fluid versus static, and more individual than generic.  

i do not see Alpha as selfish and sub as not. To me it's selfish is one wants it and the other doesn't. If both want it, i don't see it as selfish but good chemistry.  It may just be a difference in how i define terms like "selfish," and "love."   i see an Alpha as Dominant, but i don't equate a desire/need to Dominate as selfish.  i think it's just as possible for a sub to be selfish as it is for a Dom, it just gets expressed differently, it's more subtle, hidden, because it has to be to maintain the illusion that he's submitting.  A sub may bend over and take a cock, or lick a Dom's feet, do His laundry, ad infinitum, but if he is not submitting inside,  i think there's something missing. To me, the challenge, and thrill, of D/s relationship (connection) is finding those keys and knowing which holes they fit in (so to speak lol).  i see "love" as recognizing and acknowledging the value of the other. A Dom finds His value in Dominating, a sub finds his value in submitting, but both are finding their value in that and each can acknowledge that value in the other without compromising who they are. Neither can exist without the other, so i think independence is an illusion.

i see a lot of what is called D/s relationship that strikes me as role play, i.e., it's a "play," a show of sorts, where both parties are acting a part.  i don't think that either party is (usually) missing the basic ingredients for a real D/s relationship, but they miss out on "real" because they are afraid to be honest and find their way. That's something i love about the relationship my friend i mentioned earlier has.  It's real and has been a process for each of them coming into and developing what is natural in them.  i think that is easier said than done.  It's so much easier to assume a role than to develop and become.  

 

[tallslenderguy]

3 hours ago, ChemchargedPIGhole said:

Personally it's pure roleplay (but I'd never pretend it is!). Whern I get fucked I really *want* to be used, debased, treated like trash and told I'm just a hole. And it empowers me. But out of bed (or wherever) I want to be treated nicely.

Before I received my first load and became obsessed I used to complain thst every bottom's dream man was a Nazi homophobic army soldier that hates you. But that was before...

I never talk about my "normal" life and never tell guys about my 120+ IQ. Thast would destroy the fantasy.

If i possess any "pickiness" when it comes to sex, it's that i hate role play.  If i am doing the contacting, i pretty much never contact a "versatile" and often steer clear of 'versatile top."  One of the first questions i ask a guy who's profile has either of those designations is: "does it bother you that i am total bottom?"  i know some guys are more fluid than others, so i'll never pass up a guy who wants/needs to breed, but if they are wanting cock, or to flip, i politely give them my love and wish them luck.  i do not consider them bad or inferior, just not good chemistry. To me, compromising on who we are is what devolves into role-play.  

To me, it's not really sex if i am playing a role and if i detect my Top is roleplaying, it loses something. That's putting it gently, i have actually had to stop myself from laughing when i encounter a guy who is obviously not used to being a Top or is just trying to role play dominance.  Some of my most meaningful and powerful encounters with Dom guys have been with Dom's who were not overt about who they are... i.e., they weren't hung up on "Sir" or descriptors, they just were.

Honestly, there is nothing that brings the sub out of me more deeply than what i call a "subtle" or "affectionate" Dom.  i know i use this Guy a lot as an example here, but that's just an indicator of how deeply He 'marked' me.  He was about as opposite of "Nazi homophobic..." as one can get.  He made me without really having to talk about it (i.e., i didn't have to tell Him: "i'm sub).  He knew, and was confident enough to just presume on me. He has an 8" very thick cock, the kind i don't usually run to suck on because, well, it's so big it's harder to fit and put pressure in the right places and please, so just His size had me feeling inadequate from the start. He took a casual, relaxed position on my bed, sitting and leaning against my headboard, legs spread. He guided me to lie between His legs, facing Him.  He let me start out sucking Him on my own, but soon He was directing me.  He was soooo encouraging, but in an unrelenting way, like there was no question that He was going to get what He wanted. He kept 'encouraging' me to take His cock completely, saying things like "all the way" and "take it around the corner" . When i managed to get it in all the way, He'd insist that i look Him in the eyes, which was really awkward in that position.  i was gaging and my eyes were tearing. When i would have Him all the way in my throat, He ask "do you like that?" while i was looking in HIs eyes. He knew i couldn't answer, but had an expectant look on His face that i would answer, so i'd try, but couldn't.  When i'd get His cock in my throat, He would excitedly gush: "Good boy, i'm so proud of you."   The combination of His words and what i was doing made me feel both proud and embarrassed at the same time, which was a total mind fuck for me.  He got inside my head really deep and played me with ease. i only saw Him that once and have not seen Him for over two years, but i literally adore Him to this day.  After He was done, He took me to dinner... we walked down the sidewalk and as we walked, He casually reached over while looking straight ahead and put His hand down the back of my jeans and ran His finger along my crack, then withdrew. i wanted to fold into Him then and there.  There was no Nazi or overt bullying, but He took possession of me and knew it. 

 

[FelchingPisser]

8 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

.....Honestly, there is nothing that brings the sub out of me more deeply than what i call a "subtle" or "affectionate" Dom.....

 

Yes.  I have always lived by the rule that I don't "make" guys do things to me...I make them want to do the things I want them to do...even if they don't think they can or want to do that particular act...

[bbpoznow]

I am open to m ost any thing a top wants except  FF and toys  or drugs 

[ChemchargedPIGhole]

18 minutes ago, tallslenderguy said:

If i possess any "pickiness" when it comes to sex, it's that i hate role play.  If i am doing the contacting, i pretty much never contact a "versatile" and often steer clear of 'versatile top."  One of the first questions i ask a guy who's profile has either of those designations is: "does it bother you that i am total bottom?"  i know some guys are more fluid than others, so i'll never pass up a guy who wants/needs to breed, but if they are wanting cock, or to flip, i politely give them my love and wish them luck.  i do not consider them bad or inferior, just not good chemistry. To me, compromising on who we are is what devolves into role-play.  

. 

 

Role playing only works if you're a good actor. I don't " play" anything as such. I just try to make the moat of it.

Ugh...flipping.  What a letdown!

[tallslenderguy]

5 minutes ago, FelchingPisser said:

Yes.  I have always lived by the rule that I don't "make" guys do things to me...I make them want to do the things I want them to do...even if they don't think they can or want to do that particular act...

This is so accurate for me, it runs to the core of who i am.   i know this is contrary to the way a lot of guys identifying as subs are wired, but i am turned off by bullies. It's not fear, i am literally turned off. For me it screams weakness.  Anyone who has to make me do anything does not affect me as Dom, but as too inadequate to find out how to manipulate my already willing and sub nature.  Not saying this makes me 'right' and those who get into bullying or being bullied wrong, it's just not going to get a sub response with me. The Guy who has the knowledge and ability to get me to want to do what He wants borders on magical to me 

[tallslenderguy]

21 minutes ago, ChemchargedPIGhole said:

Role playing only works if you're a good actor. I don't " play" anything as such. I just try to make the moat of it.

Ugh...flipping.  What a letdown!

lol, i am sure you are right. i've likely been completely satisfied by more than a few "good actors." 

ditto re flipping. for me that would be like trying to drive the wrong way on a busy road. 

[Seedyfun]

The erotic pleasure I get from being a bottom comes from surrendering myself to a stronger, more confident, superior man and submitting utterly to his will. 

It is the process of being overpowered by the will of a stronger man and surrendering myself for him to use for his sexual pleasure that turns me on  - I want to be made to feel as though I only exist to serve his sexual needs and desires. 

"Masculinity" has associations with bravery, virility, fearlessness, strength, power, leadership, control, dominance, authority etc.  Being conquered by and made to surrender all those things to a Top is what I want from sex.  To have all those things stripped away from me by a more dominant man and to feel I am being controlled by him is what I crave.  Nothing gives me greater pleasure than gradually being forced to embrace passivity, weakness, vulnerability, submission, compliance, powerlessness and timidity etc as I obediently provide my Top with the sexual pleasure he requires.  To answer the original question - once an Alpha male has exerted his will over me and claimed  me for his sexual pleasure; of course he has the right to use my holes however he pleases!  I am just a yielding, passive wimp in his control, I have no right to anything; I know I have no choice but to do as HE desires.  Whilst I'm in his power, he owns my holes and I am just happy to surrender to whatever he wants.  The whole process of being overpowered, claimed and used by an Alpha male is, for me, the core of what makes sex fun.

[ErosWired]

On 1/8/2019 at 2:12 PM, FelchingPisser said:

Yes.  I have always lived by the rule that I don't "make" guys do things to me...I make them want to do the things I want them to do...even if they don't think they can or want to do that particular act...

My former Master and I are both intelligent men. He is a particularly good strategist, while I am a pretty good analyst. So basically, I knew what he was doing to try to get inside my head, and he knew I knew, and I knew that he knew I knew, etc. We would even have discussions about it... well, sort of non-discussions where I asked shrewd questions that he would neither confirm nor deny in an extremely irritating way. Except he would then go on to prove my theory by actually doing it.

It’s a special kind of humiliation when you can see a mindfuck for what it is, and yet be unable to resist its effects on you. As though I were a bystander outside my own body, I watched this Dom shape my mind like putty, fully understanding his method and intent, until I suddenly realized that my purpose is to be a sexual submissive to any man who asks.

So the question is, did he make me into a cumdump, did he make me want him to make me into a cumdump, or did he simply unearth something already buried within me?

If I asked him that question, I already know what his answer would be:

 

”Probably.” [wicked grin]

 

Fucker.

[downtownswallow]

Whenever I’m about to be bred, My Top understands that he owns me and can use his property to pleasure himself. If he commits to that philosophy we both have a great time.  My only demand is that he breed me. If he can accomplish that then we’re good to go.