heteronormative notions

[tallslenderguy]

i often find what, to me, are heteronormative ideas (often with religious underpinnings) on gay guys profiles on dating or even hook up sites. Starting this thread as a place to discuss the topic and identify notions that may influence or infiltrate the gay community. That's not to say all hetero notions, standards, ideas are bad (or good), but to put them out in the open for scrutiny and discussion. 

One of those notions i assign to dominant hetero/religious culture is the notion that sex, sexuality, and body parts are dirty or should only be  exposed or practiced under restricted standards. 

E.g., i cannot count the number of profiles i have seen on gay dating sites where someone explicitly states that they don't want to see cock or ass pics. That's fine with me if it's just a personal thing, but what gets me is the superior aire that often accompanies such a declaration, as if they are above all that. As though they are not going to soil themselves with such practices, and those who do are beneath their consideration.   

A close companion to the pic standard is guys who don't want to take about sex on a dating or hook up site. Again, if it's just their personal thing, fine. But more often than not, there's an accompanying lecture about how 'shallow' guys are who want or discuss sex.  

What are some of those standards that others have run into that seemingly fly under the radar, or are out in the open, that we just seem to adopt from the dominant culture we grew up in, but may not reflect who and how we are?

[hntnhole]

Great topic !

One of my chief irritations is, we're taught that the subject of "sex" is somehow dirty; the having of it, the talking about it, the sexual parts of our bodies are innately dirty and must always be covered up for the shame of being seen, how boys should sublimate their nature, how girls should act, on and on.  This reticence is probably the cause of a lot of the misinformation passed along, whispered among those who have been taught to accept this manufactured "standard of shame" as The Truth.   

I lay the blame at the feet of Organized Religion, particularly of the Western tradition.  While there are plenty of other outrages perpetrated upon us by O.R., this phony "standard" is inhuman, and deserves our disdain.  While dependent on belief in magical nonsense, O.R. coagulates the minds of it's adherents into a mish-mash of hatreds, negative behaviors, and hostility.  Worse, the "cure" is to count some beads, light some candles, and drop some dough.  While the Reformation ditched some of the more ridiculous manipulations, the more deeply manipulative remained. What other actual "thinkers" in Western history endorse this garbage? 

I don't use the cruise sites anymore, for several reasons.  What I do though, is hit the fuckjoints where none of the above matters a hill of beans anyway.  There, the guys have only one purpose, and well beyond the reach of the queens in long dresses and ruby slippers. Fortunately, I have a fb that doesn't question his inborn nature, and in this time of covid, he and I have managed to at least keep the Lusts at bay together.  

What it takes to first recognize, and then overcome these cultural "norms" we've been brought up to believe in, is not only a shallow, reactive reflection of who and what we are, but a deeper consideration as well.   When the shoe doesn't fit - don't wear it  - throw it away.

[LetsPOZBreed]

Good topic.  I find that many aspects around the notion of having sex come into play here.  

Certainly this whole idea of "gender roles" may come into play where a guy might (erroneously) think that because he's "masculine" then he has to be the one on top.  I've encountered quite a few guys over the years who simply state "I don't bottom".  It's one thing if that's just your preference - such as tried it and hated it, or even some past trauma (abuse/rape).  It's another thing entirely to write it off just becuase taking dick is seen to be too femine.  

Also, being "slutty" is viewed as going against these heteronomative ideas, although straight people can be just as slutty (if not more) than some of us.  Where I grew up in the rural south of the US, I would have some guys ask me "how many guys have you been with".  It's not like I keep a counter by my bed.  Also, what difference does it make?  

Back to the original post, I don't like unsolicited nudes...it's a different story if we've gotten to the point in a conversation where sex is on the table, at which point it becomes relevant.

I also feel that it's perfectly acceptable to fuck on the first date.  Sex may not be everything, but I definitely want to experience a physical connection with someone.  I'm not all about this "wait until X number of dates" or anything like that.

[tallslenderguy]

37 minutes ago, LetsPOZBreed said:

 

Back to the original post, I don't like unsolicited nudes...it's a different story if we've gotten to the point in a conversation where sex is on the table, at which point it becomes relevant.

This is not a challenge, but an honest question: what is it about unsolicited nudes that you don't like?

[Sharp-edge]

I like that topic. I come from a far more conservative country (Greece) than the US. Maybe I do that too. When I see all that about cumpdumps.. dunno..I don't like it. Not for religious reasons, I'm not religious. I just think that sex is something "precious" and should be treated with more respect than just taking anon dick, poz talk, dick pics etc. 

[LetsPOZBreed]

1 hour ago, tallslenderguy said:

This is not a challenge, but an honest question: what is it about unsolicited nudes that you don't like?

Perfectly fair question, so no need to apologise for asking it.  It's something I've shifted on over the years...usually didn't mind when I was younger.  For me, I like the idea of building a connection...I do like seeing a nice cock/ass/body, but if you can stimulate my mind a bit first, then I have more of a desire later on.  

[hntnhole]

5 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

as if they are above all that

Welllllll .... it probably only means they've already jacked off chatting with you .... 😁

To the point though, I don't really care all that much about the unsolicited dickpix thing one way or the other.  If it makes the guy feel hot, well - ok.  Non of it really counts until the hook-up does.  There's a lot of silly business on the cruise apps - much more productive to just hit the fuckjoints and dive in.  I don't bother with the cruise sites anymore; too many drug-soaked guys floating around on some cloud - and I don't want those types in my home.  At the fuckjoints, I don't care, but I do in my home.

2 hours ago, Sharp-edge said:

and should be treated with more respect

I can see your point, to a certain degree.  It's a more idealized, conceptual definition, and that's great.  Each guy gets to approach their sexual needs in the way that best suits them.  That said, "respect" is something that is earned, and would imply that the two (or more) guys in question have already established that level of respect - even love - for each other. Maybe some of us have travelled a bit farther down the garden path than others, but - that's ok too. There's plenty of room for every one of us.

[hntnhole]

4 hours ago, LetsPOZBreed said:

It's another thing entirely to write it off just becuase taking dick is seen to be too femine

This is the cultural thing I've been going on about.  Think for a minute - what could possibly be more "masculine" than bending over for another man's Cock?  It may not be the most "butch" (sinking into today's common vernacular) thing to do, but then it very well may be.  I don't think of the guys I fuck as "feminine" - if I did, I wouldn't fuck them.  Even if they're on the not on the "butch" side of things, I don't think of them as feminine.  To me, girls/women that act silly, think they've got gold between their smooth little legs, make brainless small talk, giggle when they get some guy to engage, are "feminine". This is the kind of thing, thrust upon our consciousness by O.R., followed by cultural biases, that has been drummed into our minds for millennia.  Well, a bit off this topic - my apologies.

To the posted issue, pics of guys online don't mean much at all.  They're only a snapshot of a moment in time, and may or may not reflect who the guy really is.  The point is, don't take the pics too seriously.  

[gingerdaddyG]

9 minutes ago, hntnhole said:

This is the cultural thing I've been going on about.  Think for a minute - what could possibly be more "masculine" than bending over for another man's Cock?  It may not be the most "butch" (sinking into today's common vernacular) thing to do, but then it very well may be.  I don't think of the guys I fuck as "feminine" - if I did, I wouldn't fuck them.  Even if they're on the not on the "butch" side of things, I don't think of them as feminine.  To me, girls/women that act silly, think they've got gold between their smooth little legs, make brainless small talk, giggle when they get some guy to engage, are "feminine". This is the kind of thing, thrust upon our consciousness by O.R., followed by cultural biases, that has been drummed into our minds for millennia.  Well, a bit off this topic - my apologies.

To the posted issue, pics of guys online don't mean much at all.  They're only a snapshot of a moment in time, and may or may not reflect who the guy really is.  The point is, don't take the pics too seriously.  

I agree - I don’t think bending over and getting fucked by another man is remotely ‘feminine’ - I love being fucked raw and it makes me appreciate being a man - it’s when I feel most comfortable and connected with other men, when we’re stripped down with nothing to hide just doing what comes naturally. 

[BootmanLA]

I'm certainly not going to deny that there is sometimes (often) a sense of sex-negativity in profiles that emphasize things other than cock/ass pics or sexual interests. But I've known a surprising number of guys over the years who actually do enjoy sex a great deal; they just don't want that to be what people "lead" with. For those guys - who often want/need more of a "connection" with a guy before having sex, jumping straight to X pics or "what are you into" is a turnoff. And I'm not going to paint them all with the "get over your heteronormative sex negativity" routine.

If someone feels that way, and you're curious, you can always ask why they feel that way. 

[hntnhole]

Nothing wrong with exchanging ideas - that's why I like this site.  I do see my interests reflected in part of your reply, which would apply mostly if I were looking for a "relationship". 

Thanks.

[tallslenderguy]

3 hours ago, LetsPOZBreed said:

Perfectly fair question, so no need to apologise for asking it.  It's something I've shifted on over the years...usually didn't mind when I was younger.  For me, I like the idea of building a connection...I do like seeing a nice cock/ass/body, but if you can stimulate my mind a bit first, then I have more of a desire later on.  

Cool, thanks for answering. i too have become more inclined towards building a connection, and continue to try for it, but find few who are inclined to try. i end up landing somewhere in the middle. When a Guy comes along who i have hopes of a deeper connection, i don't go for hook up, if there isn't anyone, hookup is gonna happen because, for me, any connection is better than none at all. 

As to pics, solicited or not, my personal feel (not attempting to apply this to anyone but me) is i love them, solicited or not. i feel honored when a man sends me any pic face, cock, ass, doesn't matter, i love looking at men, whether we have sex or not... kinda like going to an art museum for me.  i'm a total bottom, no interest in penetrating another man orally or anally, just receiving Him. But a Mans ass? Wow, even if i have no intention of fucking it, i find it to be one of the most beautiful sights on earth and am glad whenever any guys is willing to share. 

[hntnhole]

12 hours ago, tallslenderguy said:

But a Mans ass? Wow, even if i have no intention of fucking it, i find it to be one of the most beautiful sights on earth and am glad whenever any guys is willing to share. 

You and me both !!  That said, I'd much rather it be in-the-flesh, as opposed to some snapshots sent via some hook-up sites.  Obviously, that possibility may be limited by any number of things - a remote location with few places to gather and Breed with each other - inability to get into your car and just go when you want to - could be all kinds of things.  A nice body is cool, so it a hot Cock and a handsome smile, but a beautiful ass is always mouth-watering.  

[T-Girl-Cumdumpster]

some gays and cumdumps don’t want to own who or what they are. pigs like me embrace it. I know what I am; a faggot, a slut, a femboy, a t-girl, a whore, and above all I'm a super easy, bareback cumdumpster with absolutely no standards, no pride or shame, no sexual self respect that lets any anonymous stranger use my body to get themselves off, whore out, pass around and degrade and do twisted, kinky stuff to. thats why I walk the streets dressed like a fuckslut and my profile picture is a closeup of me, naked, down on my knees in a dirty porntheatre downtown, sucking a strangers cock with a bunch of men watching. I prefer men who send pics ONLY send pictures of the cock(s) I will be sucking or that will be sliding inside my fuckhole and breeding me. getting dick pics reminds me of what I am to men. A cumdumpster, not a sex partner.

[Baretop4ever]

Today it is tough for me to come even close to understand those who feel superior for moral or whatever reasons for not searching for sex in the first place. Everyone should search for whatever he needs or lacks, but I totally feel the initial post, since I had to face many times a kind of arrogance of those who felt like being in a higher position as humans for the sole reason because they don’t search for sex in the first place. 

Having said that, years ago I have been one of them, but had to realize how much I was influenced exactly by many aspects, that have been mentioned here in this thread already: religious or moral ideals, Heteronormative ideals, especially since I grew up in a conservative and heteronormative environment, where are you are most likely to adapt what you see around you as exemplary lifestyles. It was just an instinct inside of me forcing me to differ what I have adapted from what I actually want, that helped me to develop my actual nature beyond the limits of upbringing.

In this thread terms like respect or treating sex as something precious were already mentioned, which is definitely legitimate. 

But - I believe as well in sex as something precious, cause someone can be respectful towards sex in spite - or even because! - of being a cumdump or a random fucker. Wanting sex is something that I would consider as sharing, no matter immediately on the first meeting or after dating x times. Sharing something that you and anyone else have something in common: The same desire, the same lust, and the same goal. And the fulfillment of supporting and satisfying each other. 

The connections that we create, based on getting to know each other, exchanging Conversations and thoughts can be beautiful without question. But I - and I’m sure many others as well - have experienced, that even a chance encounter with a stranger and the shared moments for some hours, for a night, or so, for the sole reason to fulfill each other’s lust can be beautiful as well. Even if we part ways after that, meaning if those encounters haven’t stayed in my life after the act, the fulfillment and happiness have always remained to have shared something in common with a fellow man even just for a moment. I keep on cherishing those moments. An intellectual connection isn’t necessarily in any case better or does necessarily have a better quality time than One, where the physical connection plays an important or even the only part. 

I came to meet amazing guys that have become close people in the course of time in my life today through random sex initially and we grew together unexpectedly. Thus for me, anonymous sex with random dicks or holes, just for the sake of fulfilling sex drive can in fact be something special for me, that I feel very much respect for. In comparison to heteronormative options to meet or date, the gay hook up culture or cruising culture is a unique culture and even a tradition on its own. 

A tradition that needs to be kept, because: 
    ⁃    it is a kind of communication, A space that we can still claim our own where we are among “same species” because we share the same desires and goals
    ⁃    according to my perception and experience, dating apps haven’t actually replaced cruising culture. Actually nothing has replaced meeting in person and seeing the person in front of us with eyes and senses. Which is why I’m also no big fan of dating apps… Met too many guys online who claimed in their messages to be fond of having sex and behaved reluctant and inhibited when I finally met them. Those who I would meet, for example in bath houses directly face-to-face, are mostly the ones who have already left their inhibitions at home. 

I have heard men claim how empty or depressed they feel after having anonymous sex. But I think the issue doesn’t go back to the anonymity of the act itself but within some personal issues of those men. Maybe some men are just not into it - that’s ok. And maybe some have anxieties or other reservations not to practice like this - that’s also ok. But it is very poor of such people, to place themselves in a higher human position than those, who don’t have any trouble with or even found a passion in hooking up like this, and can see a unique meaning for themselves in it.

To wait for the “perfect (sex) partner” by thinking that sex should be something special, would be for me something like limiting my sex drive and degrading a fellow potential sex partner by being to choosy myself… at least that would be my mindset. Because anyone else could also be choosy about me and reject me as a sex partner anytime believing “sex is precious and I’ll have to wait for the perfect one”. Without realizing what I could offer. 

No matter if I remember every name of casual encounters or even didn’t have exchanged any word with them at all, I still remember looking in the eyes of the men that I fucked and how they were looking me in the eye while I was cumming deep inside of them. For me, those moments remain special. I know former relationships in my environment, be it queer or straight, where the ex-partners even remember less about each other 🤣

My conclusion: 
    ⁃    It seems to be the environment where many people adapt certain ideals that day endorse in those dating apps or generally in public discussion, but it seems to be personal experiences that leads us to places like here or wherever we share our experiences and to people with similar interests… like here.

    ⁃    no matter how “dirty”, “slutty” or whatever sex is considered in a heteronormative or religious environment, or even by guys in those mentioned dating apps, it is the kind of sex what I have come to experience as: sacred. And it’s up to no one to question or place it in a moral position if he hasn’t been in our shoes. And it’s up to no one to shame anyone for it. Especially if we have already embraced and owned it.
 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Baretop4ever