Who pays for all the new immigrants on the southern border?

[AlwaysOpen]

Stepping back from the human factor at the border with my post here. The US sends planeloads of money south of the border to try and support and bolster struggling countries, in the hope of making them stable and allowing their citizens to live and work without fear or in hunger. The only problem is so many of the leaders of those countries divert much of the funds to either themselves, or to enrich other elites in the country. So the working class are not getting the benefits intended, and risk their lives; and their children's lives, trying to get to the US . As much as those of us on here may think our country is headed in the wrong direction or has so many problems, ask any of the people desperate to come here, to work here, and to see their kids grow up here- they see it as paradise.

So why not call the President of Mexico, and let him know his country allowing all these people to pass thru their borders and head to the US border is causing the US problems and expenses. And starting in 1 week, for every person detained  at the US border with them trying to cross, the US funds to Mexico will be slashed by $5,000 , $20,000 if they are Mexican citizens. And send the same message out to each of the countries where we provide financial grants and support, with a similar penalty of say $20,000 a head for their citizens stopped, and any that transited their country will cost them as well.  If the leaders want to keep their lavish  lifestyles,courtesy of the US loans and grants,  it will be important to them to stem the flow. Make them put the coyotes out of business. Make them interdict  and turn the lines of people around and sent back to their country.

BUT- the US has got to also open up real discussion about immigration reforms.Set quotas for how many may emigrate from each country. Process and filter those who would be an asset to our nation from those who are questionable. But do it in THEIR  country, closer to their home, where  rejection  does not leave them stranded in another country. And make it punitive for anyone to just show up at a border without prior immigration intake and approval. Punitive as in, arriving at the border without documents- refused, and a 5 year ban on reapplying. To inhibit the attempt to slip in , any undocumented  caught inside US borders would be on a 10 year ban, and the country they came from would be docked $50,000 from US Aid money. I am sure stiffer penalties and fines for any repeated attempts could be fleshed out. But I doubt very many would try when faced with the repercussions back home. We do need labor, in chicken processing plants, farm fields, hotels, construction, etc. that a lot of immigrants, legally entering or not legally entering, work in once here. Often in conditions and with wages that we would almost consider almost slave like--but these folk are so desperate; and grateful for work and money, they do them.  With  honest reforms, these folk should be able to apply at a US Immigration office within their own country, not forced to a barbed wire fence 1200 miles away begging for entry. The money they give to coyotes to get them across the trek could better be used as their seed money to get a flight to the country, proper intake and a plan for where they will be, a work permit and tax ID, and a requirement of steady employment which the tax ID would be used to verify. And put an apple at the end of the process. No gaps in work, no criminal record in the initial 10 years would permit them to apply for US citizenship. 

[minthulf]

1 hour ago, AlwaysOpen said:

...So why not call the President of Mexico, and let him know his country allowing all these people to pass thru their borders and head to the US border is causing the US problems and expenses. And starting in 1 week, for every person detained  at the US border with them trying to cross, the US funds to Mexico will be slashed by $5,000 , $20,000 if they are Mexican citizens. And send the same message out to each of the countries where we provide financial grants and support, with a similar penalty of say $20,000 a head for their citizens stopped, and any that transited their country will cost them as well.  If the leaders want to keep their lavish  lifestyles,courtesy of the US loans and grants,  it will be important to them to stem the flow. Make them put the coyotes out of business. Make them interdict  and turn the lines of people around and sent back to their country...

Ooof. So, Mexican here.
Well for one, Mexico's southern border is very difficult to secure geographically and politically. Also you have quite the inadequate understanding of how the USA-Mexico relationship functions; from the consequences of following american policy wrt drugs, migrants, etc... to the ways money and goods flow between the two countries.

I will simply say: The thing you're suggesting, that's a crime against humanity; and mexico is in fact a signatory to those laws.

[topblkmale]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, BlackDude said:

I don’t understand why we are referring to these people as immigrants. They did not go through an immigration process.

 

We should call them Future Americans. That sounds nice and inclusive.

Then we can chant Future Americans ARE Americans.

 

American: person born or naturalized in the United States

[topblkmale]

On 5/25/2023 at 1:30 PM, Jandrosgape said:

Lots of stupid crap here- really kills a hardon.  How did you get here?  How did 2/3 of the people of this country get here?  Unless you are a member of one of the nations of native peoples, answer it for yourself. In silence. 

Not stupid at all.

1. Some of us were BORN here.
2. Our ancestors (ADOS) are NOT immigrants to the USA.
3. Walking across a border does NOT make one an immigrant.

If I ILLEGALLY walk across the border from Ukraine into Russia I am NOT magically an immigrant (in Russia). 

[topblkmale]

On 5/25/2023 at 5:01 PM, Jandrosgape said:

That is a  untrue response to a racist statement that you got called out on.   As I said- hardon killer.   

100% true and NOT racist.

I'm black American. 

black Haitians and other afro-latinos cross the border ILLEGALLY as well.

[guy4funwaco]

On 5/25/2023 at 11:29 AM, BlackDude said:

I don’t understand why we are referring to these people as immigrants. They did not go through an immigration process.

 

This is the real issue. Not that no one wants them just they need to do it right like everyone else. 

[guy4funwaco]

On 5/25/2023 at 1:44 PM, hntnhole said:

Thank you, minthulf & gay4funwaco !!!

It's been almost 6 months since I stirred that pot, and a number of the responses were interesting and reasonable.  I was hoping for some more in-depth responses, and here they are. 

You two, however, gave us well-reasoned, well-written, comprehensive responses that many in the US could do well to bookmark and read again and again.  I hope both of you write on other blogs, thus sharing your insights with a wider audience.

Many thanks !!! 

You learn a lot living it. I'm also in healthcare so see the devastating effects this is having on everyone involved. Truly know, the people who claim to care the most are doing nothing but making life miserable for those who are trying to help. Again, I'm not sure how but we need to follow the money and find out what is really going on. 

[hntnhole]

7 minutes ago, guy4funwaco said:

I'm not sure how but we need to follow the money

One logical place to start would be the offshore bank accounts of members of Congress.  Just sayin .... 

[viking8x6]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:40 PM, minthulf said:

I will simply say: The thing you're suggesting, that's a crime against humanity; and mexico is in fact a signatory to those laws.

I like your post as far as it goes (I'm pretty sure having input to this discussion from someone who actually has the background to know real facts about it is a huge bonus)

I'm a bit confused about the part I quoted, only because @AlwaysOpen made several suggestions (although they appear to be intended to work together), it's not clear to me which of them you believe is "a crime against humanity", and why. I'd be appreciative if you would explain a bit more fully.

[minthulf]

Quote

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

Article 7:  For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population (NB it does not require war or conflict)... d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population; e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law...

Forcibly preventing refugees from reaching the northern border would fall onto that.
Like central american countries could probably charge our past couple presidents to be in breach of the treaty (but won't bc the USA is supporting us in these violations of human rights)

Mexico, unlike the USA, is a signatory to the Rome Statue since 2005 and thus Mexican citizens may be prosecuted within the ICC.

Edited June 2, 2023 by minthulf

[BootmanLA]

I would add: the real problem, like with the drug problem, is the demand side, not the supply side. As long as people want drugs (for whatever reason), there will be entities and individuals seeking to meet that demand to make a profit. And as long as there are jobs that need to be filled in the US that US workers generally won't take (like almost anything outdoors in the southern US, for starters, and anything agricultural that can't be done from the relative comfort of a seat on a combine or harvester or whatever, then people will seek to come here to fill those jobs.

We could essentially kill the "illegal" immigration problem by having a guest worker program that allowed in as many temporary workers as were needed for, say, the harvesting season in California or the construction season in Alabama (and repeat across the country). We had a de facto system like that for decades, and such workers, generally young men, came to this country for three or four or seven months, worked, sent home whatever they could, and then returned at the end of harvest or construction or whatever. We largely ignored the traffic both ways across the border because we intuitively understood we needed the labor here.

The American wages were low by US standards, but high by their home standards; only the income-generating men were in this country, which meant most of their families stayed back where the cost of living was lower, and the families were reunited at the end of a work season. Once this country got the stupid idea that these people were the source of imported drugs - ignoring the truckloads coming through ports of entry all along the border - and we began cracking down on "illegal immigrants", these men started staying put after work seasons ended, because it was too dangerous to keep trying to go back and forth across the border; you might get in THIS time, but there might not BE a next time, so better to stay here. And that led people to want to bring their entire family here, rather than be separated.

True, they get the benefit of living in the US - but it's a lot more expensive, which means that both parents need to work, sometimes multiple jobs, in order to pay the costs of living here. Before, a group of 4-5 guys could rent a small house, stay together for the working season, and because they were sharing living expenses, they could send home a big chunk of earnings which went a lot farther in Mexico or Honduras or El Salvador. Now, those same wages have to support a wife and kids at US prices, which doesn't work - so again, multiple jobs by both parents. 

[hntnhole]

16 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

harvesting season in California

or, the Darkstain state - formerly known as the Sunshine state.  Thanks to His Dullness, the farm workers have been leaving FL in droves, leaving the crops to rot in the fields.  Many seasonable vegetables are simply not available, and when they are, the p.p.p is breathtaking.  Only fresh produce brought in by train from other areas is reliable these days.  

Give the forbidden books, the MickeyWars, the repressions of almost everyone, there are school teachers leaving the state now, looking for teaching positions in other states now that Summer break is upon us, and I don't blame them,  This cretin ruins everything he touches, leaving not much alone.  I wouldn't surprise me one bit to hear the the refrains of Die Fahne Hoch  echoing through the streets one of these days.  There's a major 4-lane, N/S arterial called Powerline Road on the western side of Ft.L.  The other day I saw a ratty old pickup with guys in the truckbed in ratty, old jackets/pants, cobbled-together bits of worn out trash they were hoping looked reminiscent of uniforms.  They had unspeakable flags nailed to 8' dowels, driving the length of the road, turning around, going back the opposite way, grinning like drooling idiots escaped from some asylum.  

I don't think DullSantis could be elected street-sweeper/dogshitpickerupper these days, 

[gimpsub69]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:08 PM, ErosWired said:

I don’t think it happens accidentally…🤔

My dad and brother own and run an agricultural company that employs field laborers. They can not get Americans to take the jobs, and they’ve tried. They have to rely on immigrant labor (with proper paperwork) to conduct their business. I think many anti-immigrant complainers fail to realize that parts of the economy would simply not function if we relied solely on domestic labor.

And the fucking governor of Texas has a lot to answer for, sending these vulnerable people in buses to places like New England and the Vice President’s residence purely for political theatre. It’s loathsome.

Abbott bussed over 300 bus loads to northern states and you heard about 2. Biden has been doing it as well but MSM doesn't cover that. It's funny that NYC was brought to it's knees according to the mayor by 60,000 immigrants. That's less what border towns see in a couple months. Grant amnesty to those here and put a minefield at the border. It's cheaper and more effective than a wall. Our military wouldn't be a bad idea either since we maintain border's across the world 

[BootmanLA]

11 hours ago, gimpsub69 said:

Abbott bussed over 300 bus loads to northern states and you heard about 2. Biden has been doing it as well but MSM doesn't cover that. It's funny that NYC was brought to it's knees according to the mayor by 60,000 immigrants. That's less what border towns see in a couple months. Grant amnesty to those here and put a minefield at the border. It's cheaper and more effective than a wall. Our military wouldn't be a bad idea either since we maintain border's across the world 

Abbott and DeSantis grab up a bunch of newly arrived immigrants, lie to them about what their options are, herd them onto buses and planes, and forcibly take them to other states. That's such a far cry from what the Biden administration is doing (and remember, it's the FEDERAL government's job to make and enforce immigration policy, not some whackadoodle fuckwad governors who want to seal up the bigot anti-immigrant vote) that it's not even in the same universe.

I do agree that some sort of amnesty program ought to be part of the solution, but you'll NEVER get the red state officials to sign on to that; all they understand is PUNISH, probably because they were beaten as children by toxic abusive parents and think punishment is the only way you can teach anyone anything.

As for the minefield thing: there's a reason civilized countries ban their use.

And as for the military: we use our military to enforce borders *sparingly*, between two adversarial parties. We aren't adversaries with Mexico or Canada, although if some moron president as stupid as Hair Furor was ever gets elected again, we might end up at war with either or both, probably for a policy like that.

[topblkmale]

On 6/3/2023 at 2:30 PM, gimpsub69 said:

Abbott bussed over 300 bus loads to northern states and you heard about 2. Biden has been doing it as well but MSM doesn't cover that. It's funny that NYC was brought to it's knees according to the mayor by 60,000 immigrants. That's less what border towns see in a couple months. Grant amnesty to those here and put a minefield at the border. It's cheaper and more effective than a wall. Our military wouldn't be a bad idea either since we maintain border's across the world 

Sadly we have been seeing a wave of these new 'immigrants' being killed on the streets of NYC through shootings and car crashes.