Changes to escort policy...

[rawTOP]

Thanks to an appeals court decision I'm relaxing the policy on escorting a little...

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/07/court-upholds-fosta-first-amendment-00105260

Still NOT allowed - “aiding and abetting” prostitution, so...

• Escort profiles
• Links to / discussions of escort sites
• Suggestions someone pay you for sex, or that you want to pay for sex
• Encouraging someone to pay or get paid  for sex.

Now ALLOWED...

• General discussions of safety issues when hiring / being hired for sex
• Fictional references to escorting
• Mentioning that you paid or were paid for sex
• Discussion of why you escort or pay for escorts (done without violating the NOT list)
• Anything before 2018

[PozBearWI]

Thanks @rawTOP.  How is your recovery going??

[ErosWired]

A question, as this has always been a little unclear to me in terms of the policy - how are we to treat content dealing with persons who are not escorts or prostitutes per se, but who condition their offers to hook up on whether a person is ‘generous’, asks for ‘tips’, or otherwise requests compensation for sexual service in a roundabout or euphemistic way? What about those asking for non-monetary compensation such as drugs, or even that one pay for their transportation? Such practices are absurdly common, and it would be nearly impossible for me to give, for example, a full accounting of a night’s hotel hosting, without mentioning such an instance.

[BootmanLA]

1 hour ago, ErosWired said:

A question, as this has always been a little unclear to me in terms of the policy - how are we to treat content dealing with persons who are not escorts or prostitutes per se, but who condition their offers to hook up on whether a person is ‘generous’, asks for ‘tips’, or otherwise requests compensation for sexual service in a roundabout or euphemistic way? What about those asking for non-monetary compensation such as drugs, or even that one pay for their transportation? Such practices are absurdly common, and it would be nearly impossible for me to give, for example, a full accounting of a night’s hotel hosting, without mentioning such an instance.

I can't speak for the site or for RawTop (ie on the policy) but I can speak a bit towards the legal issues.

While the exact definition of prostitution varies from state to state, ie what the basic elements of the crime are, that must be proven for a conviction, as a general rule it's agreeing to accept something of value in exchange for a sexual act. "Something of value" could be cash, jewelry, drugs, or whatever; "sexual act" could be anything from a handjob to full-on intercourse. The tricky part is "in exchange for" - ie, would the parties have agreed to engage in the sex act but for the something of value?

So any request for assistance, support, etc. that comes AFTER the act becomes pretty problematic in terms of proving prostitution - it's not like the purported sex worker can "take back" the sex if the other person doesn't tip. That doesn't mean waiting to pay until you're done with sex puts you in the clear - the key is whether the agreement for the payment happened before the sex act happened. Stating that you're seeking "generous" guys, but accepting a monetary thank-you after the fact, is probably walking right up to the line but not crossing it. (See negotiations, below, for more on this.)

For things of value that exchange before the act - the more attenuated the circumstances the better, legally speaking. So, for instance, taking someone to a nice dinner, and then going back for fucking afterward, might technically be prostitution if the agreement was explicit - feed me and I'll fuck you - but that so rarely happens. The non-sex-worker, in such a case, has a pretty good case that he was simply taking out someone he fancied, and was hoping that the fancying went both directions.

Transportation is almost certainly in the clear: the implication is that you were going to have sex, regardless, and paying for his transport to get to you was simply a logistical issue, not a commercial transaction.

If there's any negotiation - discussing what $25 vs $150 might get you - it's pretty much a slam dunk case.

[onlyraw]

How about talking about massage therapists?

obviously the MT who mid massage starts offering other services for additional fees- that is a tad obvious 

But if you are paying for the massage and you get more than a “just” a massage (but no extra fee is discussed)? 

 

[PaganzofLA]

Well, what can I say fellas it's a slippery slope... Personally, I for one would like to use this breathe to express my discontent that are our dicks, cunts, lips & love handles be legislated in the first place–––and sure maybe ALL of us here might well agree that goes without saying (???) but ALL those things that "go without saying"  amass overtime, of course the pendulum is going to swing, but you can't get back what you never knew you had after its been legislated away. It's the false morality that is most detrimental to the real concerns over human rights abuses.

Edited July 11, 2023 by PaganzofLA

[Close2MyBro]

21 hours ago, onlyraw said:

How about talking about massage therapists?

obviously the MT who mid massage starts offering other services for additional fees- that is a tad obvious 

But if you are paying for the massage and you get more than a “just” a massage (but no extra fee is discussed)? 

 

Just ask for the "deep tissue massage" up front 🙂

[viking8x6]

5 hours ago, Close2MyBro said:

Just ask for the "deep tissue massage" up front 🙂

Ayuh. But some of us actually want deep tissue massage  (the real thing), and have little interest in the happy ending. So there's that. 🤷‍♂️

[ErosWired]

18 minutes ago, viking8x6 said:

Ayuh. But some of us actually want deep tissue massage  (the real thing), and have little interest in the happy ending. So there's that. 🤷‍♂️

He said “Ask for the ‘deep tissue massage’ up front”, but perhaps it should be “Ask for the ‘deep tissue massage up front’.” Subtle difference there? 😉

[Kayne]

 so. I can talk about My Dancer/ Go- Go Bou Backroom shenanigans then?  sweet. 

[BootmanLA]

Massage presents its own set of problems because (a) massage, itself, is not only legal but widespread, broadly advertised, and (to some extent) a regulated industry; but (b) "massage" is not infrequently used as cover for prostitution, (c) technically, a masseuse offering to "relieve your stress" if you get an erection during the massage isn't breaking the prostitution law, and (d) there's certainly nothing provably wrong about asking, after such an experience, how much extra of a tip the masseuse thinks it's worth for the "quality of his massage" - the key, as always, is to avoid saying anything that makes a quid-pro-quo provable in court. A masseuse who says "I've had guys give me an extra $50 for that, because they were so relaxed afterward" is probably going to stay in the clear too - not that some vice cop might not try to arrest him, but a conviction almost certainly wouldn't stand. (If an arrest would be the end of the world, erotic massage may not be not something you can safely pursue unless you meet the masseuse through a trusted source.

All that aside: there are ethical issue with "legitimate" masseuses, particularly licensed massage therapists (LMT's), providing those services, and for them, getting caught offering it could quickly end with license revocation. Someone who, by contrast, advertises as a "body worker" or offers "stress relief through full-body massage" probably isn't licensed and thus won't be running that risk - but that doesn't mean they're not undercover cops looking to sting customers (it's rare, but it does rarely happen; it's much more common to send young hot(tish) undercover cops for a massage trying to get the masseuse to agree to sex in exchange for compensation.

[ErosWired]

2 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Someone who, by contrast, advertises as a "body worker" or offers "stress relief through full-body massage" probably isn't licensed and thus won't be running that risk

From time to time one encounters men on the hookup apps who are promoting their services in massage. I have always thought it highly unlikely that a licensed professional who runs a straight-up legit massage therapy studio would solicit custom on a site where some sort of sexual service is likely to be assumed.

It might be noted, by the way, that masseuse is used to indicate a female practitioner, wheras masseur is used for a male, both terms originating from the French. More lately, however, I have read that professional outfits have consciously abandoned both terms in favor of massage therapist, as they believe masseuse/masseur has become innuendo (at least in America) to indicate a person illicitly doing sex work.

[BootmanLA]

1 hour ago, ErosWired said:

From time to time one encounters men on the hookup apps who are promoting their services in massage. I have always thought it highly unlikely that a licensed professional who runs a straight-up legit massage therapy studio would solicit custom on a site where some sort of sexual service is likely to be assumed.

It might be noted, by the way, that masseuse is used to indicate a female practitioner, wheras masseur is used for a male, both terms originating from the French. More lately, however, I have read that professional outfits have consciously abandoned both terms in favor of massage therapist, as they believe masseuse/masseur has become innuendo (at least in America) to indicate a person illicitly doing sex work.

In some states, the term "massage therapist" is legally restricted to use by people who are certified. There are any number of professions (and they vary from state to state) where the official name of the licensed practitioner of said profession can legally only be used by license holders - architect, for instance, or interior designer.

There are some, like "nurse", which can be used generically as a verb (She nursed her baby, they nursed him back to health) but not generically as a noun.

As for the massage providers one finds on hookup apps, I assume in most cases they provide some actual massage but are certainly willing to provide happy endings as well. That's usually supported by descriptions of the massages offered ("you'll feel the probing deep within" or "feel your tension release to the manipulations of someone who knows how to draw it out of you". 

[ErosWired]

22 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

In some states, the term "massage therapist" is legally restricted to use by people who are certified.

Ideally, one would hope that would be the case for a practitioner using the term “therapist” in any context.

[BootmanLA]

Just now, ErosWired said:

Ideally, one would hope that would be the case for a practitioner using the term “therapist” in any context.

I'm not so sure. When accompanied by a qualifying adjective - massage therapist, marriage therapist, physical therapist - most of the time, that's going to be the case. In such a case, First Amendment concerns are balanced with concerns about deceiving the public as to the qualifications of the person.

But there are times when one might use "therapist" with an adjective to describe an activity that not only isn't regulated, but for which no body of standards of work even exist or are in development. If I go around helping people clear up insect infestations in their yards, for instance, and suggest relocating certain plants to take advantage of shade or sun conditions in another location, I might well consider myself - and label myself - a "garden therapist". In fact, I might be legally forbidden from using a term like "horticulturalist" without being licensed. Or if I specialize in restoring hardwood floors, I might call myself the Floor Therapist.

And when no adjective is used at all - thus negating any potential problem with public confusion about licensure/qualifications - "therapist" becomes a generic term, and there's a big First Amendment problem with restricting its use. Even terms like "doctor" can't be restricted that way - the Floor Doctor, the Plant Doctor.