What is "Woke"?

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, Erik62 said:

In Australia, these three simple letters (BLM) was the universal understanding. There was NO ONE thinking that these letters were only a part of the groups moniker & agenda. What you see is what you get. Unless a person has had contact (written, education, personal interaction) with this group it is unreasonable to expect the entire population of (individual nations or the world) to understand that there is a much broader definition to the  groups title & agenda. 

Well, with respect, it's a US acronym and its meaning here is really what mattered. If Australians had an "Indigenous Lives Matter" movement, I suspect y'all are all bright enough to realize that doesn't mean that the lives of descendants of white British colonials and the convicts they shipped over there do not matter. 

If y'all aren't please don't tell me. I want to think Australia is at least a tiny bit smarter than us about something beyond having universal health care.

[BootmanLA]

2 hours ago, Erik62 said:

In Australia, these three simple letters (BLM) was the universal understanding. There was NO ONE thinking that these letters were only a part of the groups moniker & agenda. What you see is what you get. Unless a person has had contact (written, education, personal interaction) with this group it is unreasonable to expect the entire population of (individual nations or the world) to understand that there is a much broader definition to the  groups title & agenda. 

Also: it's not that the three letters were "only a part of the groups moniker" - it was simply BLM. But even so: the statement that "Black Lives Matter" says nothing about white lives. It doesn't say white lives don't matter. It doesn't say black lives are more important that white lives. It's saying they DO matter - implying rather heavily, I would say, that under current treatment, they do not.

Insofar as an analogy: the lemon industry might promote its products by saying "Lemons matter." That doesn't say lemons are more important than apples, or grapes, or cherries; it doesn't say that only lemons matter and pomegranates do not. 

But some pissy fragile snowflake MAGAts decided that's what they WANTED "BLM" to mean so they could strike a "blow for equality" by denouncing the favoritism that didn't actually exist, all to assert the white privilege that actually DOES exist.

[Erik62]

2 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

Well, with respect, it's a US acronym and its meaning here is really what mattered. If Australians had an "Indigenous Lives Matter" movement, I suspect y'all are all bright enough to realize that doesn't mean that the lives of descendants of white British colonials and the convicts they shipped over there do not matter. 

If y'all aren't please don't tell me. I want to think Australia is at least a tiny bit smarter than us about something beyond having universal health care.

SORRY😢, over the last 10-15yrs Australian government's (Federal & State) have increasingly made people to feel that being of British heritage "white" is something to be ashamed of. Anyone of British heritage are being made to feel that they are dirty, thieves, illegal land grabbers, rapists, kidnappers & genocidal murderers. Last 26 Jan 2024, a white Australian wearing a baseball cap, with a national🇦🇺flag insignia, was arrested for inciting racial disharmony. Like the US, we have a very proud history of defense service & often any display of national pride (flag display, clothing, discussion) is seen as creating racial disharmony & discrimination. The ILM movement is exactly that. There is no EXTENDED Title version that makes reference to ALM (All Lives Matter). Those of British heritage are PARIAHS in the country that they built into the modern & prosperous entity, to which tens of thousanands of refugees & migrants wanted to come to for a better life. It is illegal to own or sell German medals, insignia, uniforms, display a swastika. Yes, Indigenous Lives Matter takes nothing else into consideration except ILM. 

Very SAD 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. 

[topblkmale]

 

All Lifes Matter

 

[BootmanLA]

On 11/23/2024 at 10:19 PM, Erik62 said:

Those of British heritage are PARIAHS in the country that they built into the modern & prosperous entity, to which tens of thousanands of refugees & migrants wanted to come to for a better life. It is illegal to own or sell German medals, insignia, uniforms, display a swastika. Yes, Indigenous Lives Matter takes nothing else into consideration except ILM. 

Very SAD 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. 

Those of <fill in> are PARIAHS in the country that they stole from its indigenous inhabitants, who were herded into the least desirable and most resource-poor parts of the country, so that <fill in> could exploit those natural resources into the modern & prosperous entity they now control and extract all the value from, to which of course thousands of others wanted to come and share in the stolen booty. 

There, I fixed it for you.

If you honestly don't grasp that, to the people who held ancestral lands for millennia, your "modern & prosperous entity" represents nothing more than a bunch of thieves with superior weaponry who stole their birthright , well, I'm not sure I can help you. I'm not saying Australians of British descent should feel ashamed of their parentage, but the fact that they think they did a good thing by seizing everything of value on a continent from the people already there, using it to make themselves rich, and excluding those indigenous people from any participation in society for a century or more - well, that says something.

And to be fair I'm not saying Americans - also, in large measure, descendants of invading colonials who stole all the natural resources from the people who'd been here for millennia as well. We compounded our actions by using chattel slave labor for much of that theft. But we did it so thoroughly that when we realized that the barren dustbowl to which we'd banished our natives - the Oklahoma territory - was actually rich in oil deposits, we maneuvered ways to steal that land AGAIN, so we could profit from the oil.

Morally, that kind of shit matters.

[PozBearWI]

And I find it interesting that French settlers integrated with native population and developed cooperative societies.  It was really more the Brits (primarily but not exclusively) who took a view that some humans are superior to others based upon what they look like.  

 

[BootmanLA]

3 minutes ago, PozBearWI said:

And I find it interesting that French settlers integrated with native population and developed cooperative societies.  It was really more the Brits (primarily but not exclusively) who took a view that some humans are superior to others based upon what they look like.  

The French learned their lesson with Haiti.

[PozBearWI]

Actually most likely this was concurrent, unless the French started emulating the Brits.   

To me that suggest "it depends on who the individuals are".  Some approach places they move to as "the new neighbors", others want/need to TAKE what they want as invaders.

Given our history, it logically follows this will continue.

[nanana]

17 minutes ago, BootmanLA said:

Those of <fill in> are PARIAHS in the country that they stole from its indigenous inhabitants, who were herded into the least desirable and most resource-poor parts of the country, so that <fill in> could exploit those natural resources into the modern & prosperous entity they now control and extract all the value from, to which of course thousands of others wanted to come and share in the stolen booty. 

I like what you said here BootmanLA but this is also happening in Europe, where you can’t make the same argument. Native Europeans are being shamed as racists for resenting the resource reallocation presented by mass migration. The pattern of white-shaming is bigger than just the colonial lands.  Without disagreeing with you that the colonial past has marginalized native communities can we at least explore whether white-shaming is an effective tactic, especially as collective punishment for an unequal universe? Or is it really a good tactic to smear people by race even if their past ancestors seem enviable through a modern lens?

[BootmanLA]

12 minutes ago, nanana said:

I like what you said here BootmanLA but this is also happening in Europe, where you can’t make the same argument. Native Europeans are being shamed as racists for resenting the resource reallocation presented by mass migration. The pattern of white-shaming is bigger than just the colonial lands.  Without disagreeing with you that the colonial past has marginalized native communities can we at least explore whether white-shaming is an effective tactic, especially as collective punishment for an unequal universe? Or is it really a good tactic to smear people by race even if their past ancestors seem enviable through a modern lens?

And why do we have mass migration trying to get to Europe? Because Europe is wealthier than the places these immigrants are coming from. Why is Europe wealthier? Because Europe ransacked those places (Africa, the middle East, Asia, the Caribbean, etc.) like every other colony out there.

I'm not saying white-shaming is an effective topic. I'm saying that as long as white people keep pretending that they're somehow the heroes of the narrative where they brought enlightenment and civilization to the poor benighted natives, while ignoring centuries of theft of those natives' resources, we're not going to make any progress. 

I'm not sure which "past ancestors seem enviable through a modern lens". You'd have to clarify what you mean there.

[BlackDude]

On 11/23/2024 at 8:19 PM, Erik62 said:

SORRY😢, over the last 10-15yrs Australian government's (Federal & State) have increasingly made people to feel that being of British heritage "white" is something to be ashamed of. Anyone of British heritage are being made to feel that they are dirty, thieves, illegal land grabbers, rapists, kidnappers & genocidal murderers. Last 26 Jan 2024, a white Australian wearing a baseball cap, with a national🇦🇺flag insignia, was arrested for inciting racial disharmony. Like the US, we have a very proud history of defense service & often any display of national pride (flag display, clothing, discussion) is seen as creating racial disharmony & discrimination. The ILM movement is exactly that. There is no EXTENDED Title version that makes reference to ALM (All Lives Matter). Those of British heritage are PARIAHS in the country that they built into the modern & prosperous entity, to which tens of thousanands of refugees & migrants wanted to come to for a better life. It is illegal to own or sell German medals, insignia, uniforms, display a swastika. Yes, Indigenous Lives Matter takes nothing else into consideration except ILM. 

Very SAD 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. 

Often times, people telling the truth, as history is seen about white shaming. 
 

On an individual level, if you’re not practicing racism, you should have nothing to be ashamed about. But if you’re from the perspective that black and indigenous people should quote “take their L” and move on while you enjoy the fruits of colonialism and injustice systems then yes you should be ashamed.

 

 

[nanana]

I say, all people rise up and be your highest selves. If you think shaming is an effective tactic then by all means don’t let me tell you what to do. I’m only advocating targeting the right people to shame. Collective punishment has a way of turning individual justice into a group-level beef. 

[hntnhole]

4 hours ago, BootmanLA said:

we realized that the barren dustbowl to which we'd banished our natives - the Oklahoma territory - was actually rich in oil deposits, we maneuvered ways to steal that land AGAIN

This is spot on.  Thanks, BootmanLA.  

I don't mind saying that although I've enjoyed the subject of history since grade school, I encountered not one word about the depravities (like bi-planes dropping artillery shells on the victims*) visited upon the unfortunates in OK ... not in any public school I attended.  Same with "Juneteenth".  I find that outrageous, and a bare-faced insult to those who the system was pretending to "educate".   A large city, filled with people from elsewhere on the globe, folks of overweening false pride, inculcating that false pride onto yet another generation.  

It's not until we get out of the prejudices of the systems designed to reinforce the ancient wrongs, that we even have a chance to begin thinking on our own, and even that takes a bit of inspiration.  

*historically known as the Tulsa Massacre of 1921

[nanana]

For those of you who enjoy research into unintended consequences: [think before following links] [think before following links] https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/Instructing-Animosity_11.13.24.pdf. Unfortunately even things as well indented as DEI sometimes have consequences that are the opposite of the intended result. 

Edited November 27 by nanana
Miss Autocorrect, my favorite AI drag maiden

[BlackDude]

7 hours ago, nanana said:

I say, all people rise up and be your highest selves. If you think shaming is an effective tactic then by all means don’t let me tell you what to do. I’m only advocating targeting the right people to shame. Collective punishment has a way of turning individual justice into a group-level beef. 

Producing Justice is a punishment?